Latest CrossfireX lays the smak on SLI

[Flipped Gazelle]

It's fairly subjective, they're about 20% faster than a single 480 but with the drawbacks of multi-gpu.

There are drawbacks to SLI or Crossfire, notably driver issues, poor scaling, stuttering, micro-stutter(not to be confused with stuttering), twice the heat, twice the power consumption, cooling issues and more. I use multi-gpu, but don't think a 20% performance increase is worth it to take 460 SLI over a 480. A single 480 would be my preference in that situation.

In Canada I can get a 480 for $450 right now, and a 1GB 460 at the cheapest is maybe $200 and that is from a crappy vendor who RMA will be a PITA with if I have a problem. If I bought 2 EVGA 460s, the cost would be the same as a single 480.

Multi-gpu is great, but from my past experience, is best left to being done on flagship cards. IMO of course

SLI scales better than Crossfire depending on the situation. Which is why 460 SLI can deliver some decent numbers compared to 5870CF, but a single 460 on its own is a good deal slower than a 5870.

I hope AMD can improve their scaling with the upcoming 6 series. So I welcome news like this of them improving multi-gpu scaling. Their only weakness atm in performance from my perspective is Crossfire scaling. If we can get 150+% the performance of 480 SLI out of 6870 CF, that will pretty much be enough horsepower to run any game at its highest settings at my current resolution with a 60fps avg :thumbsup:

When my brother bought his 2 GTX 460's the total came to about $50 less than a single 480. I hadn't realized how much the prices of 480's have dropped since then.

 

[golem]

I think part of that problem is that folks look at what they can get from AMD Overdrive, and that's it. But if you use MSI Afterburner or some other program, 5850 can OC by 20-30%.

It's pretty hard to get a 5850 model now that can overvolt to get you the 20 to 30% overclock. Most stock out there now is non reference w/o the voltage controls which limits most cards to under 20% oc. Almost all gtx 460 have voltage controls and get pretty high ocs.

A oced 5850 will beat a oced 460 (maybe not in xfire/sli), but it cost a lot more and will be louder.

 

[golem]

"Should be", but sometimes there are mitigating circumstances. You could pay more for features like DX11 vs DX10 support, special cooling solutions, etc.

I bought my Vapor-X 5770 2 weeks ago for $130/shipped, which at the time would have been a good price for a reference card. The fact that it runs very cool and very quiet - just about silent - is worth a premium for me.

That's true. My point was just in reference to the OP topic title. That "Xfire lays the smak on SLI". More expensive cards whether in single or dual card mode should be faster. They better or else they're pretty pathetic cards, especially since the don't even have the excuse of being a new release (the 57xx series I mean).

 

[Will Robinson]

Pimping the GTX460 is all well and good but what about the shocking driver problems they have been experiencing?
It's only been out a little while but there's a hell of a lot more threads about driver problems with it than the HD5850.
NVDA drivers seem to be getting worse and worse,why would anyone risk it?:wub:

This is just the tip of the iceberg I suspect:
http://www.semiaccurate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3191
and how about this AT user:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2105733

 

[OCGuy]

^

Drivers are a problem for both right now. AMD couldnt get Xfire working in BF:BC2 for months. I am still rocking 10.4s on my 5850.

 

[happy medium]

So the gts450 @ 105$AR with release beta drivers vs the more exspensive 5770 loses in sli, who's surprized?

I did not read the reviews (tired), how does the equally priced 5750 do vs the gts450 with beta release drivers in sli?

 

[cusideabelincoln]

ROFL just click on the link. He links to the summary page. Jesus.

(5750s end up being faster.)

 

[Powermoloch]

/rubs his 5770 Xfire set

:thumbsup:

 

[happy medium]

ROFL just click on the link. He links to the summary page. Jesus.

(5750s end up being faster.)

Funny I couldn't resist.

But I did find another sli'ed gts450 review vs a 5850 (which is equal to the 5750's in crossfire) and the sli'd gts 450's beat up on a 5850. Now unless the 5750's have 110% scaling, this is not possible.

All test with these card should be @ 1650x1050 anyhow, who's gonna buy one of these cheapo cards with a 24 inch monitor @ 1900x1080?

From the review.
Pros:
+ Tremendous overclocking potential!
+ Cool operating temperatures at idle and load
+ SLI consumes only 32 watts of power at idle
+ Great value at $260 - easily beats Radeon 5850+ Excellent price-to-performance cost ratio
+ Enables triple-monitor 3D Vision Surround capability
+ Fan externally exhausts heat outside of case
+ Quiet cooling fan under loaded operation
+ Outperforms Radeon 5870 in many games
+ Adds 32x CSAA post-processing detail


http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.p...k=view&id=593&Itemid=72&limit=1&limitstart=18
Read my lips, BETA DRIVERS vs MATURE DRIVERS.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

LOL @ comparing two different reviews, using different games, different resolutions, different hardware, and different testing methodologies. Your bias is showing.

Each review stands on its own merit. Don't compare the performance of one setup in one review to that of another setup in another review and expect consistency to be inherit.

But I did find another sli'ed gts450 review vs a 5850 (which is equal to the 5750's in crossfire)

Are you seriously basing your judgement of this? Performance is pretty tight between these setups. You can't just use substitutes; you need to use the actual hardware.

All test with these card should be @ 1650x1050 anyhow, who's gonna buy one of these cheapo cards with a 24 inch monitor @ 1900x1080?

Wow, really? Why wouldn't someone use these cards at 1080p? They are good for this resolution. And where have you been the last 5 years? SLI and Crossfire scale better at higher resolutions (also relieves any CPU bottleneck), another reason to use these cards in pairs. Considering a single 5850-class card is good for 1080p gameplay, and two of these lower end cards give you performance similar to a 5850-class card, then it is only logical 1080p is just as valid as 1650x1050.

 

[3DVagabond]

Read my lips, BETA DRIVERS vs MATURE DRIVERS.

Read my lips, year old tech vs the latest and best nVidia can offer at this price point. I guess it just depends on your POV?

 

[happy medium]

Read my lips, year old tech vs the latest and best nVidia can offer at this price point. I guess it just depends on your POV?

So you don't agree that the gts450 will easily surpass the 5750 in crossfire vs sli with a simple couple driver releases? I know your smarter then that, I've seen you post before.

I don't care if the 5770 was made in the year 1865, today it make NO difference.

The 5700 series has not recieved a real driver boost since the 10.3's. They are done.
I have one I should know.

From the gtx 460 review here on Anandtech.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3809/nvidias-geforce-gtx-460-the-200-king/5
quote:
"As for our Radeon cards, we are continuing to use the 10.3a drivers. Radeon 5000 series performance has not changed for the games in our suite since those drivers were released."

Goodnight guys.

 

[Silverforce11]

The same cannot be said for GTX460 vs. 5850 because a single GTX460 overclocked to 800mhz+ is faster than a 5850. This explains why factory overclocked GTX460 SLI setup was faster than stock 5850s in CF. Notty22 pointed this out already

The reason you responded was because i said the $40 difference between the setups, that figure was taken from the review itself. Now, reasonable ppl would not pay huge sums extra for factory OC models (i wouldn't), but it still stands, what was tested was a $40 difference setup. That falls within the performance difference, even in dx11 games. And yes, metro is NV twimtbp title, the fact its near the SLI setup in these games is a good thing.

I liked metro, its great. Too short though.

Btw, 5850s usually have no problem reaching 900mhz core and 1150mhz ram on default voltage. That's still a sizable ~25% OC. You have to vbump it to get to 1ghz but it will still run cool and quiet. Mine (950/1150) reaches 71C in BC2 with auto fan profile, and its barely audible. I still think the gtx460 is a better deal though. But now? Wouldn't folk out dough for a new card with the 6k series looming.

 

[Will Robinson]

Goodnight guys.

<crickets>

 

[Will Robinson]

So the gts450 @ 105$AR with release beta drivers vs the more exspensive 5770 loses in sli, who's surprized?

I did not read the reviews (tired), how does the equally priced 5750 do vs the gts450 with beta release drivers in sli?

Dude the whole "I'm a construction worker so I can't spell" thing is really annoying.(still)
Why not post with Firefox,it has a built in spell checker?

"exspensive"= expensive
"surprized"= surprised
"recieved"= received

There's no good reason to not take advantage of spell checking here.


There is absolutely no reason for this manner of condescending tone and post to be made in public on a technical forum.

If you wish to provide these types of helpful advices and assistance then it is best handled privately by way of PM.

The purpose of communication is to communicate...if you know that "exspensive" was meant to convey the same meaning as the word "expensive" then the tenants of the intended communication were fulfilled.

Grammar nazi, spelling nazi, whatever the pet peeve and OCD, your venue for expressing it is through private messaging. Expressing your concerns/opinions on these topics openly and publicly in the technical forum is unacceptable.

Politely asking for clarification to a post is acceptable and expected. If grammar and/or spelling errors render the message unintelligible then it behooves the reader to request a more intelligible version be drafted and communicated.

Regards,
Moderator Idontcare

 

[notty22]

Pimping the GTX460 is all well and good but what about the shocking driver problems they have been experiencing?
It's only been out a little while but there's a hell of a lot more threads about driver problems with it than the HD5850.
NVDA drivers seem to be getting worse and worse,why would anyone risk it?:wub:

This is just the tip of the iceberg I suspect:
http://www.semiaccurate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3191
and how about this AT user:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2105733

R o f l, non owners of the gtx 460, who all hate Nvidia calling for their leader to do a witch hunt. SA, Good place for info, sometimes. But that is their forum section.

The 5 series had it share of problems and things were written about them. Its sort of off topic here, but the op brought it up.
links
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/2d-windows-gdi,2539-8.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ATI-Radeon-Gray-Screen-Crash,9529.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ATI-Grey-Screen-Fix-5870,9549.html
http://www.geeks3d.com/20100208/tips-what-is-the-gsod/

 

[Will Robinson]

MoMeanMugs had it right it seems.:\
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=30413151&highlight=#post30413151


Calling out a fellow member by linking to a post that contains not only a member-callout but also a mod-edit and infraction for said callout?

Really?

You thought this would be fine and dandy?

2pt infraction.

Moderator Idontcare

 

[Kenmitch]

I think part of that problem is that folks look at what they can get from AMD Overdrive, and that's it. But if you use MSI Afterburner or some other program, 5850 can OC by 20-30%.

Very true....Until you run into the thermal limit of the cooling system on the card. These babies get very hot once you push the clocks. The stock fan on the ref design gets pretty damn loud when you gotta crank up the fanspeed to try and keep the card cool. Too bad nobody made a ref design card with an aftermarket cooling solution as it would've been one of the best selling cards I think. I'm one of those guys whom would rather do my overclocking at the bios level....Unleashing the beast pretty much requires water

On another note it does look like cross-fire is picking up some pretty good gains currently. Maybe it still doesn't scale as good as sli but does seem to be getting better.

Hmm....Kinda makes you wonder how the next generation of AMD's cards will react in cross-fire

 

[MrK6]

Hmm....Kinda makes you wonder how the next generation of AMD's cards will react in cross-fire

Same, I hope this is an upward swing to a new trend.

EDIT: I just read "The Bottom Line" and I think Brent Justice did a great job summarizing the situation. NVIDIA really is 11 months late to this party, and therefore needs to produce better parts, with higher performance and lower power consumption, and sell them at lower prices.

 

[dug777]

Very true....Until you run into the thermal limit of the cooling system on the card. These babies get very hot once you push the clocks. The stock fan on the ref design gets pretty damn loud when you gotta crank up the fanspeed to try and keep the card cool. Too bad nobody made a ref design card with an aftermarket cooling solution as it would've been one of the best selling cards I think. I'm one of those guys whom would rather do my overclocking at the bios level....Unleashing the beast pretty much requires water

On another note it does look like cross-fire is picking up some pretty good gains currently. Maybe it still doesn't scale as good as sli but does seem to be getting better.

Hmm....Kinda makes you wonder how the next generation of AMD's cards will react in cross-fire

While I agree with you, most people should be able to pick-up 10-15% at stock voltage with limited power and heat consequences

Beyond that I need to lay some serious juice, and the VRM cooling is the weak point for me, my core temps aren't that concerning but my VRMs just run away...

I guess that AMD was happy with the crippled power delivery circuitry of the 5850s cf the 5870 both from a cost cutting POV and from a effective 'glass-ceiling' on overclocking...you can smash it all right but you need water or some mean custom VRM aircooling

I love new card releases on either side of the fence, nothing like a nice fresh review to read on something new, seeing what quirks or weakspots have been addressed from previous generations, what haven't, and how the other side responds

 

[notty22]

Same, I hope this is an upward swing to a new trend.

EDIT: I just read "The Bottom Line" and I think Brent Justice did a great job summarizing the situation. NVIDIA really is 11 months late to this party, and therefore needs to produce better parts, with higher performance and lower power consumption, and sell them at lower prices.

Did someone call for lower prices ? Three days after launch, there are deals for the gts 450 at newegg . Palit 110.00-10rebate=99.99
MSI Cyclone@850 125.00-20.00 rebate 105.00
These cards also bring hdmi 1.4a- bluray 3d support. 7.1 audio

The 450 is not the powerhouse the gtx 460 is at the 220.00 price point. But these prices are at, below the 5750 and near what some 5670's are priced at. Who would buy one of those now?

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Did someone call for lower prices ? Three days after launch, there are deals for the gts 450 at newegg . Palit 110.00-10rebate=99.99
MSI Cyclone@850 125.00-20.00 rebate 105.00
These cards also bring hdmi 1.4a- bluray 3d support. 7.1 audio

The 450 is not the powerhouse the gtx 460 is at the 220.00 price point. But these prices are at, below the 5750 and near what some 5670's are priced at. Who would buy one of those now?

72 hours specials. Get 'em while they're hot!

 

[MrK6]

Did someone call for lower prices ? Three days after launch, there are deals for the gts 450 at newegg . Palit 110.00-10rebate=99.99
MSI Cyclone@850 125.00-20.00 rebate 105.00
These cards also bring hdmi 1.4a- bluray 3d support. 7.1 audio

The 450 is not the powerhouse the gtx 460 is at the 220.00 price point. But these prices are at, below the 5750 and near what some 5670's are priced at. Who would buy one of those now?

If you can regularly grab one of these for $100, then it's competitive. There's a Palit on Newegg now with a 72-hour special for $100 AR, the rest are $120-140. The card seems to compete with the 5750 and therefore should be priced similarly.

 

[Kenmitch]

I guess that AMD was happy with the crippled power delivery circuitry of the 5850s cf the 5870 both from a cost cutting POV and from a effective 'glass-ceiling' on overclocking...you can smash it all right but you need water or some mean custom VRM aircooling

The main reason I went with water in the first place was I don't like to be thermally limited on my overclocking. Started with my Q9550 at the time. Once I got my 5850 with a goal of 1000/1300 I quickly learned how hot the vregs get.

At 35&#37; or so the stock fan was audible to me. At a measly 900 or so core speed during furmark testing fan needed about 60% or more to keep vregs in 90's. One full water block later running at specs in sig 1.265v to core and with 1/2hr plus furmark temps are 40's core and low 60's vregs....No way to touch that on air!

 

[crislevin]

haha. Maybe in a dream ATI-only world.

GTX460 768mb with reference cooler - $140

lol, website says its available at "0 online stores"......