Laguna Seca Lap Times from MT

[MiataNC]

I'm not going to lie, I'm kind of glad to see the miata put in it's place. A Cobalt SS beat it by 4.43 seconds, that's nearly the same amount of time the M3 beat the Cobalt by (4.79 seconds).


B... bu... but... but it was fun to drive...




And has a far higher potential of killing you when you screw up. They're fast, that is for sure... but they aren't for everybody

Each track has its own character and favors different attributes. On a tighter track the Miata would put many of the cars ahead of it at Laguna in "their place". Happens all the time at Buttonwillow here in central California. Considering the company the MX-5 keeps (on the track), and how dirt cheap a used one in great shape can be found ($3500-7000), it still ranks among the very best when it comes to smiles per mile.

These comparisons are cool, but when you are talking production cars that will never be driven to their full potential on the street, raw performance around one specific track or under one specific set of conditions (0-60, etc) does not truly determine which is "better".

You cant' drive a spec sheet. As long as you are driving the car that speaks to your soul, you are "winning" where it counts.

 

[Arkaign]

Very true.

On the flip side, I do I have to say I'm impressed by how well the R8 did considering its relatively slow straight line acceleration and how much of a power track this course is. It is really a testament to how easy it is to drive through the corners.

Yep, I've always been impressed with the chassis and balance of the R8, but am less than impressed with the price and entry-level power (the only motor choice for far too long). I've yet to see more than a handful of R8's on the road, similar to the rarity of GT-R. It's a very cool looking car.

If the R8 was $80-$90k with the 4.2L, I think I wouldn't be so hard on it. It's apparently very very difficult to walk off with one under $120k. At that price range I'd have to be an idiot not to buy a ZR1, which will be a complete collectible as well as utterly superior.

 

[Zargon]

And has a far higher potential of killing you when you screw up. They're fast, that is for sure... but they aren't for everybody

go put that m3 or vette into a wall going 160 and tell us how safe it is


its road racing. its all dangerous.

 

[gpgofast]

. Valentino Rossi – Fiat Yamaha – 1’21.981

12 David Anthony Aussie Dave Racing Suzuki GSX-R1000 1:27.153 - slowest AMA SBK rider

um yeah I would say your figures chedk out since a SBK isnt THAT tricked out. I think you can build one for under 25K. If you cheap out you can still get close for probably 6K over a stock bike

From this years 600 race:

"For the fifth weekend in a row, a Team M4 Suzuki GSX-R600 will be starting from the pole position in AMA Pro Daytona SportBike. While Jason DiSalvo’s qualifying streak ended after four consecutive Superpole victories, teammate Martin Cardenas stepped up to lead the way today at Laguna Seca in Monterey, CA.

The Colombian has opened up a significant lead in the championship race thanks to his stellar race day form, winning six of the last eight contests, but Cardenas would readily admit that qualifying isn’t typically his strong suit. However, he put on a qualifying clinic today, laying down a 1:27.585 to lead by 0.450 seconds in an otherwise tight session that saw that next 14 riders packed within one second of each other..."

These bikes are factory prepped I will give you that, but they are suprisingly stock. Other than aftermarket bodywork, suspension work and exhaust, there is not a lot done to these bikes. Also, the "SPEC" tires that were run this year probably cost almost 2 seconds a lap over previous years DOT's.

 

[EightySix Four]

go put that m3 or vette into a wall going 160 and tell us how safe it is


its road racing. its all dangerous.

Yes, but which would you rather put into a wall at 160? The vette/m3 or a bike?

That's what I thought.

 

[DivideBYZero]

I'm not going to lie, I'm kind of glad to see the miata put in it's place. A Cobalt SS beat it by 4.43 seconds, that's nearly the same amount of time the M3 beat the Cobalt by (4.79 seconds).


B... bu... but... but it was fun to drive...

However, it needed an extra 100hp to beat the MX5, and in my book that is no where near as impressive.

 

[zerocool84]

At the end of the day, which car puts a bigger smile on your face?

Hint: It's not the Cobalt.

Car and Driver skidpad numbers:

Cobalt SS: 0.92g

MX-5: 0.87g

Faster, handles better, more usability, seems the Cobalt wins in almost every category. Yes the MX-5's have always been awesome cars and you can toss them greatly and have tons of mod parts for them, and you can't beat that open/small car feeling but the Cobalt is a great car out of the box.

 

[zerocool84]

However, it needed an extra 100hp to beat the MX5, and in my book that is no where near as impressive.

But that means nothing. An Evo needs more power than an MX-5 but does that make it any less impressive?

 

[DivideBYZero]

But that means nothing. An Evo needs more power than an MX-5 but does that make it any less impressive?

No it takes nothing from the Evo, it means the MX-5, with only 160hp, is as impressive as fuck.

 

[overst33r]

Car and Driver skidpad numbers:

Cobalt SS: 0.92g

MX-5: 0.87g

Faster, handles better, more usability, seems the Cobalt wins in almost every category. Yes the MX-5's have always been awesome cars and you can toss them greatly and have tons of mod parts for them, and you can't beat that open/small car feeling but the Cobalt is a great car out of the box.

Since when can you quantify handling? Handling has little to do with numbers, it's all about feel.

Another thing. The cobalt is fwd, as impressive as it's numbers are, it'd be foolish to say that it handles better than the all time best selling sports car... It's a near perfected formula for Mazda.

Don't get me wrong, if I had to buy either car I'd get the cobalt, but that doesn't make it more fun...

 

[Zargon]

Since when can you quantify handling? Handling has little to do with numbers, it's all about feel.

Another thing. The cobalt is fwd, as impressive as it's numbers are, it'd be foolish to say that it handles better than the all time best selling sports car... It's a near perfected formula for Mazda.

Don't get me wrong, if I had to buy either car I'd get the cobalt, but that doesn't make it more fun...

actually you can quantify handling, run it through the skid pad, the slalom, etc and the fastest/best numbers is the best handling, how the car feels means not much when it comes to how well it actually handles. you can have crappy steeering feel and still have good turn in and grip.

of course, times around a road course factor in HP, but skid pad #'s and slalom speeds are all about grip, and grip is handling.

These bikes are factory prepped I will give you that, but they are suprisingly stock. Other than aftermarket bodywork, suspension work and exhaust, there is not a lot done to these bikes. Also, the "SPEC" tires that were run this year probably cost almost 2 seconds a lap over previous years DOT's.

about 10g's in ohlins suspension, race kit ecu's intake exhaust, and tires. removal of lights etc of course

but its suprising how much the suspension really costs, but like I said, spend half as much on it or less, and get 70-90% of the gain back

Yes, but which would you rather put into a wall at 160? The vette/m3 or a bike?

That's what I thought.

I cant remember the last time someone put a bike into a wall.

but I can remember more than a few F1 cars going into walls in the last 2 years.

guess cars ARE more dangerous

 

[overst33r]

actually you can quantify handling, run it through the skid pad, the slalom, etc and the fastest/best numbers is the best handling, how the car feels means not much when it comes to how well it actually handles. you can have crappy steeering feel and still have good turn in and grip.

of course, times around a road course factor in HP, but skid pad #'s and slalom speeds are all about grip, and grip is handling.

I'll put it this way. To me, handling has always been about feel, because you can have a good handling car put out average numbers, and you can have a worse handling car put out better numbers.

For example:

A Corvette Z06 puts out way better numbers than a Cayman S, but when you're actually driving them you realize that the Cayman handles better, even though it gets trounced in terms of performance.

 

[Zargon]

I guess the issue is, what you call handling, isnt really handling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_handling

 

[MiataNC]

I guess the issue is, what you call handling, isnt really handling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_handling

Feel is more important than "handling".

MotoGP is the perfect example of this.

Both Ducati Factory bikes are identical, but Casey Stoner laps much faster than Nicky Hayden, because Hayden (who readily admits this himself) cannot get a good "feel" from the bike. In fact over the past 3 years ONLY Stoner can get the best out of the Duc, and some of the top riders in the world have lost their GP rides or been forced to go to less capable teams due to lack of results.

 

[EightySix Four]

Feel is more important than "handling".

MotoGP is the perfect example of this.

Both Ducati Factory bikes are identical, but Casey Stoner laps much faster than Nicky Hayden, because Hayden (who readily admits this himself) cannot get a good "feel" from the bike. In fact over the past 3 years ONLY Stoner can get the best out of the Duc, and some of the top riders in the world have lost their GP rides or been forced to go to less capable teams due to lack of results.

This comes from the guy with the name Miata that has an RX-8 fetish in his signature

 

[MiataNC]

This comes from the guy with the name Miata that has an RX-8 fetish in his signature

How does that relate to the points I am making in this thread?

My position is that raw performance or a limited data set (laps around a specific track, or the skid pad) does not tell the whole story, regardless of the car/bike being discussed.

Take two identical cars/bikes off the showroom floor, and the same professional rider will not post identical lap times, because despite having the same parts, both will "feel" slightly different do to differences in manufacturing no matter how slight.

 

[Zargon]

Feel is more important than "handling".

MotoGP is the perfect example of this.

Both Ducati Factory bikes are identical, but Casey Stoner laps much faster than Nicky Hayden, because Hayden (who readily admits this himself) cannot get a good "feel" from the bike. In fact over the past 3 years ONLY Stoner can get the best out of the Duc, and some of the top riders in the world have lost their GP rides or been forced to go to less capable teams due to lack of results.

thats one way to look it, but certainly not factual.

IMO stoner is just a way better rider than hayden(who I think is part hack part luck part skill, all white trash). just like how the other yamaha guys can run with rossi sometimes, but when rossi is on, well

that story has been told 8 times already.


I would rather drive a car that puts down twice the g's with half the feel than the car does half the g's with twice the feel.

a) so its harder to get more out of it, its not supposed to be easy

b) the limit is higher

your opinion is that you prefer an inferior hanlding car that feels better, as opposed to a better handling car that lacks input, and thats fine. but quit saying that means it handles better, because I already provided a link showing that scientifically, you are wrong.

say it feels better, not that it handles better. you can argue about feel all you want, but data is data.

the skid pad is a GREAT indicator of handling potential, given similar tires.

 

[overst33r]

I guess the issue is, what you call handling, isnt really handling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_handling

I beg to differ.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/...as_best_handling_car_track_testing/index.html

CHEVROLET COBALT SS
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:47.751
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.545 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 9TH

MINI COOPER S
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:51.977
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.515 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 8TH

SUM UP: Handling sweetness tops the Chevy's superior stick.


Even though the Cobalt got a way faster lap time, the Mini handles better. According to you, the cobalt handles better, which obviously isn't the case according to people who have more experience than either of us.

For further proof. Check out where the RX-8 places in the test.

MAZDA RX-8
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:50.418
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.524 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 3RD

DODGE VIPER ACR
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:35.117
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.658 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 7TH

Now how could one of the slowest and worst performing cars in the comparison test handle better than the fastest and best performing car? Numbers aren't everything.

 

[EightySix Four]

I beg to differ.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/...as_best_handling_car_track_testing/index.html

CHEVROLET COBALT SS
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:47.751
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.545 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 9TH

MINI COOPER S
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:51.977
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.515 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 8TH

SUM UP: Handling sweetness tops the Chevy's superior stick.


Even though the Cobalt got a way faster lap time, the Mini handles better. According to you, the cobalt handles better, which obviously isn't the case according to people who have more experience than either of us.

For further proof. Check out where the RX-8 places in the test.

MAZDA RX-8
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:50.418
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.524 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 3RD

DODGE VIPER ACR
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:35.117
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.658 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 7TH

Now how could one of the slowest and worst performing cars in the comparison test handle better than the fastest and best performing car? Numbers aren't everything.

You just proved that the cars that handled better may not have the best feel but are faster. Which is exactly what we just said. We would rather have twice the handling with half the feel than the other way around. I'd take the faster cobalt over the mini s all else being equal (interior etc.)

It is cool that you don't feel that same was as us, but "handling" and "handling feel" are two different things. One is an objective measure and one is a subjective measure. Subjective rankings will differ between different testers, while objective ones should stay similar every time.

Is the weather outside cold? Well it's 40* outside (objective), so it's chilly (subjective).

 

[MiataNC]

your opinion is that you prefer an inferior hanlding car that feels better, as opposed to a better handling car that lacks input, and thats fine. but quit saying that means it handles better, because I already provided a link showing that scientifically, you are wrong.

Yes I do prefer cars with lesser specs, because they are a hell of a lot more fun to drive around town and on the track. I am no Rossi or "Shumi", nor do I aspire to be or pretend to be.

I have driven the Cobalt SS (both generations...TC/SC), the GTI, and the MazdaSpeed3. All post better numbers than my RX-8, but all of them require a LOT more work to get the most out of them due to fighting the front end on corner exit. The RX-8 (and the MX-5 I used to have) is cake to steer with the throttle, allowing me to drift the rear as much or as little as I desire.

I googled up Auto-X results, and your Cobalt SS does not do nearly as well as MX-5's, and if any event requires handling it is Auto-X.

 

[exar333]

I beg to differ.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/...as_best_handling_car_track_testing/index.html

CHEVROLET COBALT SS
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:47.751
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.545 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 9TH

MINI COOPER S
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:51.977
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.515 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 8TH

SUM UP: Handling sweetness tops the Chevy's superior stick.


Even though the Cobalt got a way faster lap time, the Mini handles better. According to you, the cobalt handles better, which obviously isn't the case according to people who have more experience than either of us.

For further proof. Check out where the RX-8 places in the test.

MAZDA RX-8
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:50.418
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.524 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 3RD

DODGE VIPER ACR
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:35.117
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.658 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 7TH

Now how could one of the slowest and worst performing cars in the comparison test handle better than the fastest and best performing car? Numbers aren't everything.

Read fail.

Look at numbers and base your decision. A biased review is a biased review. This reminds me of the crock review/comparisons you see in a motor mag where a car gets 3rd place (out of three) in all 4 tests, and still gets a win because it "feels faster" and is more of a "crowd pleaser".

A car's skidpad results won't increase magically, but the "feel" of the car can always be improved.

 

[Zargon]

DS vs BS yes,

the cobalts have too much power for autox, its like wrestling an ape.

an angry angry angry ape

plus once you get up to speed handling dynamics are going to change some too

the rewarding feeling of a good run it is way better to me than say, when I ran a saturn SC2 fully spec'd for STS that was easy to point and shoot, but thats my personal opinion. It has nothing to do with how the cobalt ss has technically better handling #'s than some other car

 

[Zargon]

Read fail.

Look at numbers and base your decision. A biased review is a biased review. This reminds me of the crock review/comparisons you see in a motor mag where a car gets 3rd place (out of three) in all 4 tests, and still gets a win because it "feels faster" and is more of a "crowd pleaser".

A car's skidpad results won't increase magically, but the "feel" of the car can always be improved.

for serious, Motor Trend is notoriously pro german/japan.

you could shit on a bmw emblem and they would actually think about giving it Car of the Year most of the time.



and for the recond, I LOVE miata's

especially the turbo'd kind, or the monsters

 

[EightySix Four]

DS vs BS yes,

the cobalts have too much power for autox, its like wrestling an ape.

an angry angry angry ape

plus once you get up to speed handling dynamics are going to change some too

the rewarding feeling of a good run it is way better to me than say, when I ran a saturn SC2 fully spec'd for STS that was easy to point and shoot, but thats my personal opinion. It has nothing to do with how the cobalt ss has technically better handling #'s than some other car

Sky/Solstice FTW, same motor with rear wheel drive and better weight distribution

 

[overst33r]

You just proved that the cars that handled better may not have the best feel but are faster. Which is exactly what we just said. We would rather have twice the handling with half the feel than the other way around. I'd take the faster cobalt over the mini s all else being equal (interior etc.)

It is cool that you don't feel that same was as us, but "handling" and "handling feel" are two different things. One is an objective measure and one is a subjective measure. Subjective rankings will differ between different testers, while objective ones should stay similar every time.

Is the weather outside cold? Well it's 40* outside (objective), so it's chilly (subjective).

The test ranked the cars based on handling. The better handling cars placed higher regardless of what the numbers said.

I believe that handling and feel are one in the same. They can't really be measured.

for serious, Motor Trend is notoriously pro german/japan.

you could shit on a bmw emblem and they would actually think about giving it Car of the Year most of the time.



and for the recond, I LOVE miata's

especially the turbo'd kind, or the monsters

You're confusing C&D with MT on the BMW bias. Besides, since they appointed Randy Pobst to drive all of the cars and give his comments on them, I don't think their opinions were weighted as heavily, but who knows.

Read fail.

Look at numbers and base your decision. A biased review is a biased review. This reminds me of the crock review/comparisons you see in a motor mag where a car gets 3rd place (out of three) in all 4 tests, and still gets a win because it "feels faster" and is more of a "crowd pleaser".

A car's skidpad results won't increase magically, but the "feel" of the car can always be improved.

Subjective based on one driver. That levels the field and allows the cars to be ranked against each other.

Like I said before, the numbers have little bearing on what they ranked the cars on.