Lack of muscle soreness?

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Fausto1

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Well this is really good to hear! Now the trick is, if my biceps are adjusting and recovering so quickly, how many days do I wait before the next workout for that particular muscle group? How fast does muscle rebuild if it's supplied an optimal amount of protein and nutrition?

48 hours is the rule of thumb IIRC. You have to allow for adequate recovery or your progress stall out or you'll eventually get hurt. You really shouldn't have time to hit your bi's more than twice a week anyway if you're on a rotation for the rest of your body on other days. Please don't turn yourself into one of the goons I see at the gym with huge biceps and pecs and the legs of a 12 year-old girl. That's just not right.

I would say at least 72 hours between workouts. But like SnapIT said, once a week is best. Unless you're using AS that is.

 

[LordMaul]

All I have to add to this thread right now is this: I've said it once, and I will say it again. When you work out, your muscles DO NOT get "microscopic tears" in then. The working only induces them to grow larger, and muscle is not the product of "rebuilding" anything.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Originally posted by: Fausto1

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Well this is really good to hear! Now the trick is, if my biceps are adjusting and recovering so quickly, how many days do I wait before the next workout for that particular muscle group? How fast does muscle rebuild if it's supplied an optimal amount of protein and nutrition?

48 hours is the rule of thumb IIRC. You have to allow for adequate recovery or your progress stall out or you'll eventually get hurt. You really shouldn't have time to hit your bi's more than twice a week anyway if you're on a rotation for the rest of your body on other days. Please don't turn yourself into one of the goons I see at the gym with huge biceps and pecs and the legs of a 12 year-old girl. That's just not right.

I would say at least 72 hours between workouts. But like SnapIT said, once a week is best. Unless you're using AS that is.

Fausto has more of a cardio slant on his working out so if you're doing cardio you can workout with much greater frequency, but with weights really blasting a muscle group every 48 hours would be overkill, whereas with running/biking you can hit them more frequently because they aren't being brought to failure.

 

[PunDogg]

Change the execrise, work the same muscle a differant way, cuz when u over work it, your body gets used to it, and so u have change it to gain muscle.

Dogg

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: LordMaul
All I have to add to this thread right now is this: I've said it once, and I will say it again. When you work out, your muscles DO NOT get "microscopic tears" in then. The working only induces them to grow larger, and muscle is not the product of "rebuilding" anything.

This goes against everything I've read from reputable sources. Can you show me a source or two that backs up your position?

 

[Deeko]

I totally agree with SnapIT's suggestion. Lift each muscle group once a week. Sure, soreness is usually gone in 48-72 hours, but its best to do a full workout in muscle group in a day. My lifting program is an 8 day cycle, with each muscle group being worked once per cycle, and the results are incredible. Since I started in January, I've gained almost 25 pounds. I just started another guy on the program, he is not even 2 full cycles in, and he's gained 5 pounds, even WITH losing some fat.

As to soreness, no, you don't have to be sore to build. You don't ALWAYS get used to working out, either. After my leg workout, which includes squats, I am very sore the next day. Sometimes I get sore after my chest workout. My shoulders and back muscles haven't gotten sore since the first or second cycle, and those have seen by far the most improvement.

 

[classy]

Some people really don't anything about the human body. Muscle soreness has to and will occur when the muscle is properly excercised. The soreness comes from what is called lactic acid, which is a by product of age old fatigue. When you excercise the muscle to get tone, fit, or larger, the muscle when worked to a fatigued state breaks down muscle tissue and during "recovery" becomes stronger and lean muscle. You don't have to use heavy weights to achieve this. You can also do this by high reps or endurance type excercise like running, biking, etc. But the muscle in order to improve needs to be fatigued which will lead to soreness. Now you can reach a level where you just keep the muscle tone with light excercise and hardly no soreness, but the muscle will not improve or become stronger either. Incidentally thats why creatine works so well, one of the effects it has it delays lactic acid build up. Why protein? Because protein is what provides the necessary nutients for the muscle to recover and be built up.

 

[Deeko]

Oh really?

Lets look at some of my workout charts.

Military press. I started out terrible, only putting up 25lb dumbells 10 times. My shoulders have gotten sore maybe...once? Last time I did military, I put up 55lb dumbells 10 times. That's over a 2x improvement. But I haven't gotten sore, so I'm not building muscle, right?

Lat Pulldowns. My lats have NEVER gotten sore. I started out doing 7(numbered plates, I'm not sure how much the plates weigh) 10 times. I now do 14. Again, a 2x improvement. But I haven't gotten sore, so I'm not building muscle, right?

that's enough right there. You don't HAVE to get sore to build muscle.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: Deeko
Oh really?

Lets look at some of my workout charts.

Military press. I started out terrible, only putting up 25lb dumbells 10 times. My shoulders have gotten sore maybe...once? Last time I did military, I put up 55lb dumbells 10 times. That's over a 2x improvement. But I haven't gotten sore, so I'm not building muscle, right?

Lat Pulldowns. My lats have NEVER gotten sore. I started out doing 7(numbered plates, I'm not sure how much the plates weigh) 10 times. I now do 14. Again, a 2x improvement. But I haven't gotten sore, so I'm not building muscle, right?

that's enough right there. You don't HAVE to get sore to build muscle.

Ok lets use you. What tiem frame has it been from when you first started till now? How long have you been working out? How often do you work out? And more importantly have you muscles improved in their look?

 

[classy]

Here's a quick rundown on soreness Muscle Soreness

 

[Deeko]

As stated above, I started this lifting program in January. I lift on the following schedule:
Day 1: Shoulders/Triceps
Day 2: Chest(dumbells)
Day 3: Legs
Day 4: rest
Day 5: Chest/Biceps
Day 6: rest
Day 7: Back
Day 8: abs/lower back
My muscles that have shown the most weight improvement have also shown the most size improvement. Shoulders & back muscles have seen the most improvement. My legs have improved, but not as much. I've seen the least improvement in chest, mostly because I've been benching since 10th grade, my sets of 10 have only improved from 130 to 165. Still not bad, but not like the other groups. And chest is one of the two muscle groups that DO get sore.

edit: prior to this workout, I'd been going to the weight room maybe 2 times a week since september, and not really doing anything specific, it was more of a maintaining workout than a building workout.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: classy
Here's a quick rundown on soreness Muscle Soreness

That article even says that DOMS isn't caused by lactic acid. Nor does it say that you have to get sore to build.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: classy
Here's a quick rundown on soreness Muscle Soreness

That article even says that DOMS isn't caused by lactic acid. Nor does it say that you have to get sore to build.

Yep, that's what I got from it too. In fact, it says if you keep getting delayed onset soreness, see a doctor because something is wrong.

If you lift regularly, you should not be getting moderate or severe delayed onset soreness. You might feel slightly stiff or sore, but no where near moderate or severe soreness. Soreness occures when you do something your body is not accustomed to doing. So if you lift regularly, your body is used to it. But you will STILL build muscle.

Now, this is not talking about the "burn" you feel right after lifting, especially in the legs and forearms, that fades a minute or two after a set. This is talking about the kind of soreness felt for days.

I'm making steady gains in strength and size, and the only time I get anything other than very mild DOMS is if I take more than a week off, or if I start a completely new exercise. Recently, injury and illness forced me to take four weeks off. Buy did I hurt when I went back. But guess what the cure was after a couple of days? Doing the same exercises with light weights. Now I'm back into my regular workouts, and feeling fine.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: classy
Here's a quick rundown on soreness Muscle Soreness

That article even says that DOMS isn't caused by lactic acid. Nor does it say that you have to get sore to build.

From article

These symptoms of soreness and stiffness are a normal adaptation process, which will lead to greater strength once your muscles have recovered. That is why it is important that you should allow for adequate rest in your workout week.

Many people believe that DOMS is caused by lactic acid, which builds in the muscles during exercise. This is a myth. Although the topic remains controversial, most experts agree that DOMS is caused by microscopic tears in the muscle fibers, as well as some swelling.

There is no sure way to prevent DOMS, unless you decide not to exercise at all!


Several things here. First it is debated what does cause it, I believe like many its latic acid. Second like its stated in the article soreness should be expected. And looking at your progress the reason why your not experiencing soreness since your intial is you really have little improvement. A person who trains hard to improve will reach your levels in 3-4 weeks. Your shoulders and back will improve because they are used in just about every excercise in some way. If you did reps with say 175-185 for say 6-8 reps you'll experience growth and soreness as well. Your progress is just excercise, far from building up. I bet without even seeing you you probably look the same size as before you started.

 

[classy]

If you reach a certain level of strength or endurance and excercise at that level no you will not have much soreness. But if you train to get better whether its looks or getting stronger you'll have to train harder and each level of improvement will be met by soreness. This is 17 years of lifting and at my peak at 340+ bp, curls with a straight bar of 185 for 6-8 strict, and 505 squat at a body weight of 191. Totally clean. Never used roids. And am back on the trail after a nasty shoulder injury that has kept me down for more than year.

 

[Deeko]

Ok, a few things.

1) It says there is no sure way to prevent it. It does NOT say that if it doesn't happen, you won't build muscle
2) Your comments on my progress are completely off. My progress is just exercise, not building up? That is a 2 times increase. And I wasn't scrawny beforehand, I was in good shape. And I will take your bet in a second, because like I said earlier, I HAVE had signifigant size improvements. Do you think a 20% weight gain isn't noticeable? Find another guy my size that does the weight I do. I have had signifigant progress due to my lifting program, and I've done it without constant soreness.
3) If you are so set that lactic acid causes the pain, why did you link to an article that clearly states otherwise?

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: Deeko
Ok, a few things.

1) It says there is no sure way to prevent it. It does NOT say that if it doesn't happen, you won't build muscle
2) Your comments on my progress are completely off. My progress is just exercise, not building up? That is a 2 times increase. And I wasn't scrawny beforehand, I was in good shape. And I will take your bet in a second, because like I said earlier, I HAVE had signifigant size improvements. Do you think a 20% weight gain isn't noticeable? Find another guy my size that does the weight I do. I have had signifigant progress due to my lifting program, and I've done it without constant soreness.
3) If you are so set that lactic acid causes the pain, why did you link to an article that clearly states otherwise?

Man muscle soreness has been debated for years. And guess what will continue after you and I are both dead and buried . Like I said that was just a quick rundown from a good site. I won't say much more about you personally, I am just glad your taking care of yourself. But I can say safely that body development will bring soreness. Why? Thats up for debate. But unfortunately the old line "NO pain No gain" is true. Good luck

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: mrCide
pfft.

i'm talking about soreness that lasts 1-2 days, not pain

if you dont feel it your not increasing inmuscle mass, that soreness is normal and will accompany a good work out.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: classy
Here's a quick rundown on soreness Muscle Soreness

Many people believe that DOMS is caused by lactic acid, which builds in the muscles during exercise. This is a myth.Although the topic remains controversial, most experts agree that DOMS is caused by microscopic tears in the muscle fibers, as well as some swelling.

From the link you just provided us...

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: classy
Some people really don't anything about the human body. Muscle soreness has to and will occur when the muscle is properly excercised. The soreness comes from what is called lactic acid, which is a by product of age old fatigue. When you excercise the muscle to get tone, fit, or larger, the muscle when worked to a fatigued state breaks down muscle tissue and during "recovery" becomes stronger and lean muscle. You don't have to use heavy weights to achieve this. You can also do this by high reps or endurance type excercise like running, biking, etc. But the muscle in order to improve needs to be fatigued which will lead to soreness. Now you can reach a level where you just keep the muscle tone with light excercise and hardly no soreness, but the muscle will not improve or become stronger either. Incidentally thats why creatine works so well, one of the effects it has it delays lactic acid build up. Why protein? Because protein is what provides the necessary nutients for the muscle to recover and be built up.

this is sort of what i was getting at.
in my experience, you can probably get bigger & stronger w/o soreness, although the calendar time required will be longer.

whether your workout is the most efficient for gaining strength or size is another matter - you can get very sore with less than optimal workouts, so soreness in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean you're working out sanely to reach your goals.

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: mrCide
pfft.

i'm talking about soreness that lasts 1-2 days, not pain

if you dont feel it your not increasing inmuscle mass, that soreness is normal and will accompany a good work out.

I haven't gotten DOMS for many years, unless i try a new excersise, then i get it once with that excersise, and i still keep growing...

You don't have to be sore to grow...

Regarding the link of lactic acid buildup and DOMS, i guess everyone knows by now that DOMS has nothing to do with lactic acid buildup...

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: Koing

Originally posted by: SnapIT
BS, you can train like that without steroids, but it will be counterproductive... (can, but shouldn't) What i mean is, 45-60 minutes is max for a high intensity workout, you can go beyond that but you will be overtraining then...

I use 80 pound dumbells, seated... i have problems with my left arm lagging behind so i don't use the bar anymore...

You can't train at the same intensity levels without steriods then if you did use them. You would be too tired.

45-60 minutes is not enough time for my work out. I'm a specailised lifter. I do Olympic lifts and I train as follows:


Warm up overall body:

Warm up for Clean and Jerk
Train:

85kg x 3 reps x 4 sets

Back Squat:
100kg x 6 reps x 5 sets

Close Grip bench press
62.5kg x 8 reps x 4 sets

Clean pulls:
115kg x 3 x 5 sets

Sit ups with 10kg at incline with straight legs

8 reps x 4 sets


(reps and sets will vary slightly depending on what day and week of my schedule it is and also what training routine I am on. Also if I am 2 weeks from competition)

You can't finish that in 1hr. I take 1-2 minutes rest between each set of each exercise to keep working harder. I take longer on the technical lifts of my training schedule as the focus is on technique.

This is a typical day for me. I alternate between two work outs. Clean and Jerk day. Snatch day.

I hit the gym 3 times a week. I don't rotate body parts as I don't need to. I do this to compete in competitions. Squating big is king and the volume you need to do is a lot if you want to compete, which I do.

Obviously if your hitting the gym 5-6 times a week then you can take less time. Also if you lift like I do you can't do it in one hour and you need to do the volumes of work I do. Also I only like to hit the gym 3x a week. I love working out but I got to do other things also.

Just like you wrote, 5 times a week will take less time, one bodypart per occasion...

Example: chest

Bench:
Warmup 15-20 *1
4*3-6

Incline dumbell:
3*3-6

Incline flyes:
3*3-6

Pullovers:
Warmup 15-20*1
3*3-6

That will take me about 45-60 minutes depending on how i feel...

But that is just for my chest, a smaller area, so intensity can be higher...

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: classy
Some people really don't anything about the human body. Muscle soreness has to and will occur when the muscle is properly excercised. The soreness comes from what is called lactic acid, which is a by product of age old fatigue. When you excercise the muscle to get tone, fit, or larger, the muscle when worked to a fatigued state breaks down muscle tissue and during "recovery" becomes stronger and lean muscle. You don't have to use heavy weights to achieve this. You can also do this by high reps or endurance type excercise like running, biking, etc. But the muscle in order to improve needs to be fatigued which will lead to soreness. Now you can reach a level where you just keep the muscle tone with light excercise and hardly no soreness, but the muscle will not improve or become stronger either. Incidentally thats why creatine works so well, one of the effects it has it delays lactic acid build up. Why protein? Because protein is what provides the necessary nutients for the muscle to recover and be built up.

Well obviously you don't, maybe if you read the link you provided, you would know more...

Do you have to use heavy weights rather than endurance type training? Well, of course you need heavy weights to hit the fast twitch fibers effectively, you just cannot dispute that...

Do you know why creatine delays the lactic acid buildup? Simply because the muscles use creatine phosphate instead of glucose, and as lactic acid is a byproduct of burned sugars, NOT a byproduct of tissue breakdown, it will take longer before lactic acid is produced...

Like i have said before, most people who have been building for years never get sore, no matter what they do, they still grow...

 

[SagaLore]

Poll is staying kind of close... I'm not sure who to believe yet... I'm going to err on the side of "no pain, but still gain" I've read somewhere that overworking the muscle into soreness indicates tears, which takes up to 3 weeks to repair. And since some people here have worked out for years with the same method I'm just now starting, and they can vouche for it, then I'm going to give that a try for awhile...

I started drinking a protein shake (whey, ion filtered, free form aminos, blah blah blah, etc.) which includes a Myostatin blocker. Anybody hear good news on this? Supposed to accelerate muscle growth...

 

[SagaLore]

A good read I just found:

One Set is Enough

I'm going to have to give that a try...