Kingdoms of Amalur developer lays off entire staff

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NoSoup4You

Golden Member
Feb 12, 2007
1,253
6
81
Most you complaining about the government getting involved probably haven't been to Rhode Island before, or Providence to be specific. It's a wretched hive of scum and villainy, I'm being completely serious.

Anything R.I. can do to help change their image, to help create ~400 high paying jobs, to potentially change the culture of that city... it's worth it. And $75M is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

It's a shame ol' number 38 screwed it all up... his intentions were obviously on target but the end product fell short of the mark. Well short, I couldn't stomach more than the 2 hours of demo time I had, Amalur was a revolting mess of a game.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Gov. Chafee said in a press conference this week that 38 Studios was burning through roughly $4 million a month in cash just to keep up with Copernicus' development.


wonder what the breakdown for that is.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
I really don't think there was anything nefarious going on. Just an extremely poor business plan with management apparently asleep at the wheel. They weren't paying 413 people for playing tiddlywinks. They were working on an MMO that had a budget of $100million. It appears a substantial portion of it was done. They never came close to having $100million in capital and with the amount of employees that $100million budget was low. The game they did release was supposed to help keep them afloat while working on the MMO.

Whoever thought that investing/giving money to an unproven startup to make a $100million+ game was a total moron. There is a reason the major venture capitalist firms 38 tried to get equity financing through turned them down. That should have sent off red flags to RI. The deal should have never been made. The deal never made any sense.

The biggest problem was they were supposed to have 450 employees. That is mega-sized development team. One that wasn't needed. The only reason they had so many employees(413 from some reports) was because the loan guarantees had specific employment requirements to get disbursements.

All you have to do is look at the studio making TES Online to see 38 had way to many employees. That studio is ZeniMax Online, they only have 250 employees.

This is the typical problem with government intervention, even if the orginal intention was good like to increase employment.

You have a government investing in something, not to be financially viable, but just to hit some political target. Well, have the government people think about how 38 studio will hit that employment target if they are not financially viable? Does the government have the capability to assese if 38 studio is financially viable, and able to monitor every so often that they are doing okay? Does the government know what is the reasonable team size to run an MMO project?

You got bunch of bureaucrats making investment not for the profitability but for some political target. These bureaucrats have no clue, no knowledge to check if the company's initial proposal is sound, and to continuesly monitor if the company is doing okay. The company got some free money, is more worried about the political target and not to make the best product and to make some money.

Personally I liked KoA, fun game, story is a bit lacking, 1.2 million copies sold is not bad for the game, not many games sold over 1 million copies. The game was not the reason 38 studio failed. It was their Copernicus project that drag the company to hell. And the reason Copernicus project was such a financial mess is the mix of bureaucrats and a company with government money. This will be the cause everytime when government money is involved with bunch of clueless bureaucrats distributing money and company getting money asked to hit some political goal, and not financial/productivity goal.
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,539
287
126
www.the-teh.com
Most you complaining about the government getting involved probably haven't been to Rhode Island before, or Providence to be specific. It's a wretched hive of scum and villainy, I'm being completely serious.

Anything R.I. can do to help change their image, to help create ~400 high paying jobs, to potentially change the culture of that city... it's worth it. And $75M is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

It's a shame ol' number 38 screwed it all up... his intentions were obviously on target but the end product fell short of the mark. Well short, I couldn't stomach more than the 2 hours of demo time I had, Amalur was a revolting mess of a game.

I don't care how wretched R.I. is, it's a huge disservice for a state to be putting money into chasing unicorns instead of something direct like education or infrastructure. They would have been better off using tax payer money to build casinos as even if 38 studios had a massive hit on their hands it's not going to generate that much cash.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,547
1,127
126

Schilling is coming across as a moron and apparently, at least in my opinion, horrible at business. This company as it turns out never had a sustainable business plan. That is not RI fault. At the rate 38 was going, they would have needed a minimum of $60million to survive another year, un. That is just ridiculous.

As for the tax credits, that appears to be 38 studios fault too. They knew, or should have known, that in order to receive said tax credits, they had to be incorporated in RI, but they choose to incorporate(IIRC) in Delaware. At this point, tax credits alone couldn't even come close to keeping 38 alive. Nor would have deffering the first loan payment. Schilling is delusional, there is nothing that could have saved 38 other than a time machine that would allow them to go back and create a legitimate/proper/sustainable business plan and put some actual management in place.

And if he really did put $50million of his own money into 38. That just means its an even bigger cluster fuck. It probably wasn't Schilling who made the poor business decisions, someone made some epically bad decisions and Schilling didn't see that then, and apparently doesn't see that now.
 
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Destiny

Platinum Member
Jul 6, 2010
2,270
1
0
Schilling is coming across as a moron and apparently, at least in my opinion, horrible at business. This company as it turns out never had a sustainable business plan. That is not RI fault. At the rate 38 was going, they would have needed a minimum of $60million to survive another year, un. That is just ridiculous.

As for the tax credits, that appears to be 38 studios fault too. They knew, or should have known, that in order to receive said tax credits, they had to be incorporated in RI, but they choose to incorporate(IIRC) in Delaware. At this point, tax credits alone couldn't even come close to keeping 38 alive. Nor would have deffering the first loan payment. Schilling is delusional, there is nothing that could have saved 38 other than a time machine that would allow them to go back and create a legitimate/proper/sustainable business plan and put some actual management in place.

And if he really did put $50million of his own money into 38. That just means its an even bigger cluster fuck. It probably wasn't Schilling who made the poor business decisions, someone made some epically bad decisions and Schilling didn't see that then, and apparently doesn't see that now.


Maybe he was too busy playing WOW... caught up with Tera or D3... or playing the betas of Guild Wars 2 to pay attention to his business? :confused:
 

NoSoup4You

Golden Member
Feb 12, 2007
1,253
6
81
The most troubling thing for me, aside from Schilling investing all his earnings from baseball into this, is that for all the big name talents they brought in to craft this world (Rolston, Salvatore, Macfarlane) that it turned out so utterly forgettable and generic. Whatever money was thrown at those guys... there wasn't much return on that investment.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,547
1,127
126
The most troubling thing for me, aside from Schilling investing all his earnings from baseball into this, is that for all the big name talents they brought in to craft this world (Rolston, Salvatore, Macfarlane) that it turned out so utterly forgettable and generic. Whatever money was thrown at those guys... there wasn't much return on that investment.

McFarlanes track record in games is pretty poor. One of UO's worst expansions had creatures/art by McFarlane.
 

titan131

Senior member
May 4, 2008
260
0
0
This is the typical problem with government intervention, even if the orginal intention was good like to increase employment.

You have a government investing in something, not to be financially viable, but just to hit some political target. Well, have the government people think about how 38 studio will hit that employment target if they are not financially viable? Does the government have the capability to assese if 38 studio is financially viable, and able to monitor every so often that they are doing okay? Does the government know what is the reasonable team size to run an MMO project?

You got bunch of bureaucrats making investment not for the profitability but for some political target. These bureaucrats have no clue, no knowledge to check if the company's initial proposal is sound, and to continuesly monitor if the company is doing okay. The company got some free money, is more worried about the political target and not to make the best product and to make some money.

Personally I liked KoA, fun game, story is a bit lacking, 1.2 million copies sold is not bad for the game, not many games sold over 1 million copies. The game was not the reason 38 studio failed. It was their Copernicus project that drag the company to hell. And the reason Copernicus project was such a financial mess is the mix of bureaucrats and a company with government money. This will be the cause everytime when government money is involved with bunch of clueless bureaucrats distributing money and company getting money asked to hit some political goal, and not financial/productivity goal.
I agree with you, the government wants to build the economy using the heavy hand of the state, which will always be less efficient than the invisible hand of the free market. What Obama has to understand is, when they take money out of the economy (taxes) and spend it, that money would have been used to grow the economy anyway, but it would have been used by the private sector, you know, business men and women and entrepreneurs. If Obama and his administration think they can predict the winners better than the private sector and free market, they're nuts.
 
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blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
I agree with you, the government wants to build the economy using the heavy hand of the state, which will always be less efficient than the invisible hand of the free market.

Ever hear of market failures, externalities, monopolies, asymmetric information, moral hazard, adverse selection, imperfect information, tragedy of the commons (very real; look at fish stocks over the last 100 years), etc.? You "free handers" strike me as people who aren't well-versed in economic theory and history. Neoclassical economics rests on assumptions that are demonstrably false, including the assumption of free-flowing perfect information, no externalities, etc.

Take moral hazard for instance. Wall Street loves to use your money to make what are essentially gambles. If they win, they keep the profit. If they lose big enough, they whine to the government for handouts. If you truly believed that "free hand" garbage, then you would be perfectly fine with letting the banks fail. Yet Republicans, who absorb most of Wall Street's massive campaign contributions, threw money at the banks. Banks, which fraudently signed up as many crappy mortgage instruments.

That's just one of MANY failures in the ridiculous world dreamed up by Adam Smith where we all prosper forever thanks to magical assumptions that do not exist in REAL LIFE.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think a totalitarian state run by the govt is any better than capitalistic anarchy, but let's not pretend even for a second that Adam Smith's world actually exists.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I agree with you, the government wants to build the economy using the heavy hand of the state, which will always be less efficient than the invisible hand of the free market. What Obama has to understand is, when they take money out of the economy (taxes) and spend it, that money would have been used to grow the economy anyway, but it would have been used by the private sector, you know, business men and women and entrepreneurs. If Obama and his administration think they can predict the winners better than the private sector and free market, they're nuts.

Such a simplistic and wrong ideology.

Funny, companies are just sitting on $2 trillion cash - nice reinvestment there!

Tell me, when did the economy do better - 50 years ago with corporate taxes 6% of GDP put back in the economy, or today at 1.8% of GDP lowest in the G20?

Oh, ya, the economy was doing a lot better then - when workers took a bigger share of the pie and then spent it driving the economy, instead of the plutocratic hoarding.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Ever hear of market failures, externalities, monopolies, asymmetric information, moral hazard, adverse selection, imperfect information, tragedy of the commons (very real; look at fish stocks over the last 100 years), etc.? You "free handers" strike me as people who aren't well-versed in economic theory and history. Neoclassical economics rests on assumptions that are demonstrably false, including the assumption of free-flowing perfect information, no externalities, etc.

Take moral hazard for instance. Wall Street loves to use your money to make what are essentially gambles. If they win, they keep the profit. If they lose big enough, they whine to the government for handouts. If you truly believed that "free hand" garbage, then you would be perfectly fine with letting the banks fail. Yet Republicans, who absorb most of Wall Street's massive campaign contributions, threw money at the banks. Banks, which fraudently signed up as many crappy mortgage instruments.

That's just one of MANY failures in the ridiculous world dreamed up by Adam Smith where we all prosper forever thanks to magical assumptions that do not exist in REAL LIFE.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think a totalitarian state run by the govt is any better than capitalistic anarchy, but let's not pretend even for a second that Adam Smith's world actually exists.

You want to talk economic theory and history? what a laugh. Did you know about the Asian currency crisis back in 97? Did you know how the Chinese great leap forward with government production target that caused starvation of millions? You think government regulation on FX rate and other thing don't cause failure? Seriously, are you sane?

What market correction we have once every few years, and maybe a big recession every few decades is normal economic boom bust cycles. Big freaking deal compare to millions of starved people in Russia, China and North Korea.

And back to the topic, we are not saying government regulation is always bad, there is no perfect free market, and we always need rules and referees. But the topic is about government trying to invest in some game company.....seriously? you think government knows how to run a game company, how to predict if the game company is viable, profitable? Have you spend one day with politicians and bureaucrats? You really have that much confidence in those people?
 

titan131

Senior member
May 4, 2008
260
0
0
Ever hear of market failures, externalities, monopolies, asymmetric information, moral hazard, adverse selection, imperfect information, tragedy of the commons (very real; look at fish stocks over the last 100 years), etc.? You "free handers" strike me as people who aren't well-versed in economic theory and history. Neoclassical economics rests on assumptions that are demonstrably false, including the assumption of free-flowing perfect information, no externalities, etc.

Take moral hazard for instance. Wall Street loves to use your money to make what are essentially gambles. If they win, they keep the profit. If they lose big enough, they whine to the government for handouts. If you truly believed that "free hand" garbage, then you would be perfectly fine with letting the banks fail. Yet Republicans, who absorb most of Wall Street's massive campaign contributions, threw money at the banks. Banks, which fraudently signed up as many crappy mortgage instruments.

That's just one of MANY failures in the ridiculous world dreamed up by Adam Smith where we all prosper forever thanks to magical assumptions that do not exist in REAL LIFE.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think a totalitarian state run by the govt is any better than capitalistic anarchy, but let's not pretend even for a second that Adam Smith's world actually exists.

Look, I'm not saying capitalism is perfect but there is more logic to my way of thinking than perhaps you realise. Take China, they were very poor until their government started embracing free market principles and they are now on track to becoming the worlds greatest superpower. The USA became the worlds greatest superpower by manufacturing goods and selling them to the world. You may not realise but the united kingdom, where the industrial revolution started, was once known as the workshop of the world and they also became very wealthy.

Something else you may not be aware of is that the USA is going to collapse in the not too distant future. As is much of Europe and the uk. When creditor nations stop lending the US money it's game over because the US's service sector economy depends on credit and without it, it won't survive. Why would countries stop lending the US money? well because the US has no way to earn the money to pay them back. Why? Because the US hardly produces anything anymore, all they can do is borrow more and more money. It's a rat hole. The sums of money the US is going to need in future are going to be untenable and anyone caught holding the bag is going to lose a lot of money. What I'm saying is, default on the debt is inevitable. Yeah, they could just print it and pay their creditors back like that, but at that point massive inflation occurs and borrowing any more money becomes extremely expensive due to massive interest rate hikes, so it's still game over.

Now, when the service sector collapses what is going to replace it? Nothing. What the US needs is manufacturing jobs so they can sell to nations who DO have money, but the US can't compete with those countries, why? Is it because China devalues it's currency? I don't think so, devauling ones own currency is easy, just send everyone a check in the mail and add as many zero's as you want. The reason is because it's expensive to manufacture in the US because of regulations and taxes. I've heard economists say that the US will never be able to compete in manufacturing with china, but they must. Basically China is just a bunch of people and America is just a bunch of people, so what's the big difference? Why is one so competitive while the other one isn't? Government. The minimum wage needed for someone to survive in China is much lower. Anything that raises the cost of living damages the economy because the wages needed to survive are driven higher. Taxes do this and regulations make doing business more expensive.

It is my belief that the whole world can be wealthy, some think that it's a zero sum game, one country gets richer while another gets poorer. What you have to understand is that capitalism and productivity actually creates wealth. Thinking in terms of money confuses the situation, imagine there is no money and we just barter with whatever we produce, would the world be a more wealthy place if we produce very little or if we produce very much?

Capitalism doesn't just distribute wealth, it creates wealth. I mean, do you think we are more wealthy, now, as a species or when we were all living in caves? we have obviously created wealth since then and we can create more if only we would embrace capitalism again.

Edit: A lot of what I've written above doesn't seem really relevant in response to what you said.

- I don't think Wallstreet should have been bailed out by the government.

-I don't think the gov. should have guaranteed any housing loans.

- I don't agree with the FED devaluing the currency which is what enabled the housing bubble to exist.

- I also don't think the government should make any guarantees on anyone's deposits. Now, I know they do this to try and prevent bank runs and bank runs are obviously very serious. The problem is, that now no one gives a crap about what the banks do with their money or what risks they take because depositors know they'll get their money back w/e so who cares?

- One reason why so many people are attracted to wallstreet is because of the inflation created by the FED and the more inflation there is the greater the risks people are willing to take to make returns. Wallstreet does very well out of inflation because yes the prices of many things go up but they get more than their fair share of the liquidity.

Edit: In response to your Adam Smith comment. Do you know the single best thing that China could do for its people's living standards and the world economy? Let their currency rise. If they did that their money would rise in value hugely compared to other currencies and importing goods from other countries would become ridiculously cheap. Why would it benefit the world economy? because profit seekers would start building factories in other countries who didn't have a strong currency or economy and then that country would slowly become more wealthy, their currency would rise just like China's did and the story would repeat itself and keep repeating itself. Adam's Smiths theories haven't really been given a chance because governments keep fing it up.
 
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rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Such a simplistic and wrong ideology.

Funny, companies are just sitting on $2 trillion cash - nice reinvestment there!

Tell me, when did the economy do better - 50 years ago with corporate taxes 6% of GDP put back in the economy, or today at 1.8% of GDP lowest in the G20?

Oh, ya, the economy was doing a lot better then - when workers took a bigger share of the pie and then spent it driving the economy, instead of the plutocratic hoarding.

Yeah, sure, 50 years ago after the war with all these demand to fill and America the only unscratched victor to provide the goods and service. Compare to today with much more competition, world wide banking crisis and EU instability.

That has no impact at all to our economy, just the corporate tax %. Yeap, that's all there's to it.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,851
31,343
146
Paul Krugman is a complete idiot btw.

:rolleyes:

capitalism:free market economy :: marxism/communism:socialism

free market: good
unrestrained capitalism: very very bad.

we know this. Only a fool could not recognize this.

We've had an "invisible hand" for the last two decades. Most can tell you, from living in it, with the evidence screaming in your face, that this is a stupid idea.


and hello, P&N
 

titan131

Senior member
May 4, 2008
260
0
0
:rolleyes:

capitalism:free market economy :: marxism/communism:socialism

free market: good
unrestrained capitalism: very very bad.

we know this. Only a fool could not recognize this.

We've had an "invisible hand" for the last two decades. Most can tell you, from living in it, with the evidence screaming in your face, that this is a stupid idea.


and hello, P&N
You've only had the invisible hand over the last two decades to a very limited extent. Manipulation of interest rates has created massive distortions, I.e. malinvestments which need to be corrected by a recession. The US can resist it by printing money all they want, at the end of the day it's only going to make things worse.
 
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Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
2
76
EPIC bought big fish games. the whole shebang. so alot of those people have jobs again!
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
EPIC bought big fish games. the whole shebang. so alot of those people have jobs again!

I don't think Epic is hiring the 350+ people. Probably the core group and some arts people.

And the new studio is in baltimore, where as 38 Studio was in RI. Seems RI is going to get stuck with a lot of crap when the exodus happens.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,547
1,127
126
I don't think Epic is hiring the 350+ people. Probably the core group and some arts people.

And the new studio is in baltimore, where as 38 Studio was in RI. Seems RI is going to get stuck with a lot of crap when the exodus happens.


1. Epic didnt buy out anyone. Big Huge Games wasn't bought out. Former Big Huge Games devs went to Epic and made a pitch about starting a studio with their savings and asked if Epic could help them out. So instead of letting them piss away their savings, Epic is starting new yet to be named studio in Baltimore. Apparently they have been wanting to expand for awhile and this gave them the perfect opportunity.

2. They dont know how many of the ~70-120(not sure of the exact count) former Big Huge Games employees they can hire yet. Its also unknown how many have already been picked up by other companies. Since there were several companies looking for talent.
 
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Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
2
76
1. Epic didnt buy out anyone. Big Huge Games wasn't bought out. Former Big Huge Games devs went to Epic and made a pitch about starting a studio with their savings and asked if Epic could help them out. So instead of letting them piss away their savings, Epic is starting new yet to be named studio in Baltimore. Apparently they have been wanting to expand for awhile and this gave them the perfect opportunity.

2. They dont know how many of the ~70-120(not sure of the exact count) former Big Huge Games employees they can hire yet. Its also unknown how many have already been picked up by other companies. Since there were several companies looking for talent.


the blurb I read said epic bought big fish, but I'm going to assume you are more accurate than the 2 paragraph news blub(no this isnt sarcasm). because well, I don't trust a major news source to be remotely accurate about gameing
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
Its about right overall, some numbers are off(how much retail gets, how much console makers get). Developers typically receive $10-20 per unit. KoA wasn't their undoing though. Their undoing was having 379 employees. To compare, Turbine, a well established developer who has 4 major MMO releases with multiple expansions has 389.

38Studios had way to many employees for a game development startup and no constant stream of money.

That's how the game is played these days, don't you know? Someone made a killing betting on 38's failure....