Kid cheats, school punishes kid, dad sues school

[Golgatha]

The father should be thankful he was just kicked out of the class.

In College your ass gets an X on your transcript, which not only denotes an F, but that you cheated and is a Kiss of Death. Do it again and you get expelled permanently.

Exactly. Dumbass father isn't very forward thinking. It's best to let his son learn a life lesson while the stakes are still relatively small. Fast forward past college and get caught plagiarizing material; you loose your livelihood, credibility as an author/academic and could quite possibly be sued into bankruptcy for copyright infringement. Parents, please let your kids learn their lessons early.

 

[DrPizza]

The lawsuit isn't frivolous. The lawsuit isn't to prevent his son from getting punished. The lawsuit is because the school apparently didn't follow due process. I.e., it handed out a punishment in excess of what it published would be the punishment.

It's not a matter of the father trying to get his kid out of trouble - the father agrees that the kid broke the rules. What some of you are arguing is similar to "well, he was going 5 miles an hour over the speed limit, so they fined him $100,000. I can't believe that the father is saying that it's okay to speed." He's not - he's saying that the punishment wasn't the correct punishment according to the school rules. If the school has a written policy, then they MUST follow that written policy. In the case that there are two policies, it should be up to the court to determine which supercedes the other.

Yes, the kid signed a code of conduct - but there are apparently two separate sets of rules at the school - one says it's after the 2nd offense, and one says it's after the 1st offense.

Should the kid be punished? Absolutely. Do I think the rule should be that the kid is thrown out of the honors class? Absolutely. However, the school can't change the rules arbitrarily or have two sets of rules for the same situation. The school screwed up by (allegedly) having two conflicting sets of rules.

I'd be willing to bet that the school, as is typical, will ask for dismissal of the case, (which could happen) but the judge will let it go to trial because it has merit.

 

[kranky]

Sad that Marc Berghouse of Sequoia Union High School has to go through all this.

 

[Zenmervolt]

The lawsuit isn't frivolous. The lawsuit isn't to prevent his son from getting punished. The lawsuit is because the school apparently didn't follow due process. I.e., it handed out a punishment in excess of what it published would be the punishment.

It's not a matter of the father trying to get his kid out of trouble - the father agrees that the kid broke the rules. What some of you are arguing is similar to "well, he was going 5 miles an hour over the speed limit, so they fined him $100,000. I can't believe that the father is saying that it's okay to speed." He's not - he's saying that the punishment wasn't the correct punishment according to the school rules. If the school has a written policy, then they MUST follow that written policy. In the case that there are two policies, it should be up to the court to determine which supercedes the other.

Yes, the kid signed a code of conduct - but there are apparently two separate sets of rules at the school - one says it's after the 2nd offense, and one says it's after the 1st offense.

Should the kid be punished? Absolutely. Do I think the rule should be that the kid is thrown out of the honors class? Absolutely. However, the school can't change the rules arbitrarily or have two sets of rules for the same situation. The school screwed up by (allegedly) having two conflicting sets of rules.

I'd be willing to bet that the school, as is typical, will ask for dismissal of the case, (which could happen) but the judge will let it go to trial because it has merit.

There's no constitutional due process right for minors in public schools. This is similar to how the right to freedom of speech is restricted within schools as well. Even with Tinker students have very limited rights and I seriously doubt that a due process claim is going to fly here.

ZV

 

[ichy]

The Bar Association and the Rules of Civil Procedure provide for sanctions lawyers who engage in filing frivolous suits.

Lol, if you think that the legal profession actually does this in any meaningful way then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Lol, if you think that the legal profession actually does this in any meaningful way then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

And how long have you been involved in the legal profession that you know this?

The ABA aggressively investigates allegations of lawyer misconduct and lawyers are routinely disciplined or even expelled from the bar for violating the code of ethics.

ZV

 

[ichy]

The ABA aggressively investigates allegations of lawyer misconduct and lawyers are routinely disciplined or even expelled from the bar for violating the code of ethics.

What complete and utter horseshit.

I used to work for a stock brokerage firm that like many such firms was routinely on the receiving end of frivolous lawsuits (technically it was arbitration since their clients had to agree to that, but the basic idea is the same.) For a lawyer to actually get sanctioned their behavior had to be so egregious that it was the legal equivalent of murder. I have more faith in the mafia's ability to regulate itself than I have in the legal profession.

 

[Zenmervolt]

What complete and utter horseshit.

I used to work for a stock brokerage firm that like many such firms was routinely on the receiving end of frivolous lawsuits (technically it was arbitration since their clients had to agree to that, but the basic idea is the same.) For a lawyer to actually get sanctioned their behavior had to be so egregious that it was the legal equivalent of murder. I have more faith in the mafia's ability to regulate itself than I have in the legal profession.

We will have to disagree then.

ZV

 

[Wreckem]

What complete and utter horseshit.

I used to work for a stock brokerage firm that like many such firms was routinely on the receiving end of frivolous lawsuits (technically it was arbitration since their clients had to agree to that, but the basic idea is the same.) For a lawyer to actually get sanctioned their behavior had to be so egregious that it was the legal equivalent of murder. I have more faith in the mafia's ability to regulate itself than I have in the legal profession.

That is just not the case.

Every month you can open up any State Bar publication and go to the very back and see a long list of people suspended or have had their licenses revoked. Almost every lawyer does this monthly ritual. Lawyers love public shaming.

Now is there much disciplinary action over frivolous lawsuits? That depends on the state.

 

[Wreckem]

And Due Process, doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means in an administrative law setting(which this is).

Dude should stick to Family Law. Hes not going to win. In the extremely unlikely event he somehow does, his kid will basically be even more totally screwed and won't be going to any sort of credible college with cheating and plagiarism noted on his high school academic transcript.

School made a fair offer, no cheating/plagiarism notation on transcript and get kicked out of class and still get to enroll in IB classes the next year. Or kid stays in class, it would be an F in the class and a notation on the transcript. Now the most likely outcome is, father loses and son loses. Father is acting stupid.

 

[DrPizza]

There's no constitutional due process right for minors in public schools. This is similar to how the right to freedom of speech is restricted within schools as well. Even with Tinker students have very limited rights and I seriously doubt that a due process claim is going to fly here.

ZV

I beg to differ. I'll toss this out as an example: Goss v. Lopez http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goss_v._Lopez

I'm aware of plenty of cases regarding due process needing to be followed for students. This case very well seems like it would be one of them. From my understanding of previous educational law cases, there wouldn't be a due process claim if the student hadn't been allowed into the advanced class. They wouldn't really be able to appeal the decision not to allow the student into the class (well, they could appeal it, but they wouldn't be able to win.) However, once in that class, due process would have to be followed in order to boot the kid from the class, else the school opens itself up to a lawsuit - and in this case, apparently, they did.

 

[Wreckem]

I beg to differ. I'll toss this out as an example: Goss v. Lopez http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goss_v._Lopez

I'm aware of plenty of cases regarding due process needing to be followed for students. This case very well seems like it would be one of them. From my understanding of previous educational law cases, there wouldn't be a due process claim if the student hadn't been allowed into the advanced class. They wouldn't really be able to appeal the decision not to allow the student into the class (well, they could appeal it, but they wouldn't be able to win.) However, once in that class, due process would have to be followed in order to boot the kid from the class, else the school opens itself up to a lawsuit - and in this case, apparently, they did.

Due process is always required when a state actor is involved in depriving liberty or property. The question is how much due process is required and it is convoluted. Due process doesn't always require a full hearing. In a majority of administrative matters a mere chance to offer a written statement affords the person due process. Furthermore, kicking a kid out of class and putting him in a regular English class doesn't deprive him the same way as in Goss.

Furthermore, again, the father is fucking stupid. Hes either kicked out of the class or his entire academic career is ruined. Even if he was successful on a due process claim, that won't do away with the cheating notation on his transcript. The father isn't arguing about whether the kid cheated or not, hes merely arguing over due process and harsher punishments. Its clear the kid cheated.

 

[Texashiker]

It's not a matter of the father trying to get his kid out of trouble - the father agrees that the kid broke the rules. What some of you are arguing is similar to "well, he was going 5 miles an hour over the speed limit, so they fined him $100,000. I can't believe that the father is saying that it's okay to speed." He's not - he's saying that the punishment wasn't the correct punishment according to the school rules. If the school has a written policy, then they MUST follow that written policy. In the case that there are two policies, it should be up to the court to determine which supercedes the other.

From what I understood from the article, after the kid posted something on facebook, the school decided to take further action.

It seems to me that the school was trying to punish the kid for cheating, and for posting something on facebook about his punishment.

I do not understand what this due process with a school is? When I got called to the office in high school, the assistant principle said I was getting "whatever", and there was no discussing it.

During the final exams of my freshman year I was sick and missed a day. One of the teachers refused to let me make up the test and I failed the class because of it.

I guess things change with the times. It would have been nice to be able to appeal a teachers decision in 1982 so that I could take a makeup test.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Due process is always required when a state actor is involved in depriving liberty or property. The question is how much due process is required and it is convoluted. Due process doesn't always require a full hearing. In a majority of administrative matters a mere chance to offer a written statement affords the person due process. Furthermore, kicking a kid out of class and putting him in a regular English class doesn't deprive him the same way as in Goss.

Furthermore, again, the father is fucking stupid. Hes either kicked out of the class or his entire academic career is ruined. Even if he was successful on a due process claim, that won't do away with the cheating notation on his transcript. The father isn't arguing about whether the kid cheated or not, hes merely arguing over due process and harsher punishments. It's clear the kid cheated.

Pretty much exactly what I'd have posted.

Admittedly, I was too hyperbolic in my previous post but from a practical standpoint I tend to consider the relatively minimal provisions required by the courts for students to fall short of fully protected rights in the sense that adults enjoy those rights. Even Tinker, despite containing the claim that students do not "shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse door," substantially abridges the extent of students' free speech rights and the result is a "right" that bears little resemblance to an adult's "Free Speech" right.

I agree with you that Gross isn't really on point here because we're not dealing with a suspension or any sort of removal from the school.

ZV

 

[DrPizza]

But you're dealing with the removal from a class.

Been there, done that with other high school activities. Didn't get into NHS? Bummer.

Okay, next student - you're in NHS & got caught drinking, breaking into a house, and a few other major problems that result in kicking you out of NHS? You absolutely have a right to due process before you can be removed from NHS. I'm very familiar with a few cases locally (I was an NHS advisor and met regularly with NHS advisors from districts throughout the area; but never had a case myself.) The process has to be followed exactly as outlined, else the school would be opening itself to a lawsuit (and other schools had been sued.)

I don't see much of a difference between being selected for NHS and being selected for an advanced class. A student isn't entitled to due process when giving them something, but they ARE entitled to due process when taking something away.

 

[rasczak]

There should be a law where if a lawyer files a frivolous lawsuit, his law degree gets revoked and he is banned from practicing law ever again. Too much bullshit in this country.

Wouldn't pass of course. Aren't most politicians lawyers? :thumbsdown:

 

[Baked]

without stupid f*cking people, the world would be a barren place.

FTFY. Can you imagine if everybody's smart? Why would you even risk having children, and end up getting divorce anyway, costing you mindless hours of headache going to court, while getting rape in the ass by your lawyer?

 

[Bignate603]

All four students involved in the incident were transferred to regular English classes. Berghouse believes the punishment is disproportionate to the offense and will jeopardize the academic future of his son, who he said has a chance at attending an Ivy League school.

Not anymore, he just created a huge news story about your son being a cheater.

 

[DrunkenSano]

If they think cheating like that is okay, they don't deserve to attend an Ivy League School.

 

[SkullWalker]

hope this backfires on the dad and he loses all his clients

Exactly! Lawyers like him should learn their place.

 

[Zenmervolt]

But you're dealing with the removal from a class.

Been there, done that with other high school activities. Didn't get into NHS? Bummer.

Okay, next student - you're in NHS & got caught drinking, breaking into a house, and a few other major problems that result in kicking you out of NHS? You absolutely have a right to due process before you can be removed from NHS. I'm very familiar with a few cases locally (I was an NHS advisor and met regularly with NHS advisors from districts throughout the area; but never had a case myself.) The process has to be followed exactly as outlined, else the school would be opening itself to a lawsuit (and other schools had been sued.)

I don't see much of a difference between being selected for NHS and being selected for an advanced class. A student isn't entitled to due process when giving them something, but they ARE entitled to due process when taking something away.

You're talking about "due process" as though it's a specific and well-defined set of procedures. It's not. An opportunity for an after-the-fact written petition is often more than sufficient to satisfy "due process" in these sorts of situations. The school is certainly not going to be obligated to have any sort of full hearing prior to removing the student from the class. An opportunity to challenge the action after the fact, even if it's just writing a letter, is probably going to be enough.

ZV

 

[Dude111]

hope this backfires on the dad and he loses all his clients

He's just abusing his position TO TRY AND EXTRACT $$$$$!!

Why did the idiot cheat on his test?? (And do it in a way the school could tell)

 

[eits]

hope this backfires on the dad and he loses all his clients

if he wins, this guy is the only lawyer i'd ever want. his client base will increase tremendously.

 

[Ketchup]

if he wins, this guy is the only lawyer i'd ever want. his client base will increase tremendously.

At the expense of his child. Do you have any idea how hard he is making it for his child to get into a really good college? I am sure state schools won't care. Maybe that is not in the foreseeable future, but it just goes to show you the mistakes people will make when they think they are smarter than everyone else, and doing something that could net them a large sum of money.

 

[shortylickens]

Sadly I'm not even surprised at this. Knowing what I do about modern parents and school systems, this will probably be upheld in court.