I use the numpad with either hand, depending on the game. I started playing FPSs with Descent and have always used a keyboard-only scheme for 6DOF FPSs and space sims, but use mouse/KB for conventional FPSs.
I use the numpad with either hand, depending on the game. I started playing FPSs with Descent and have always used a keyboard-only scheme for 6DOF FPSs and space sims, but use mouse/KB for conventional FPSs.
zerocool84
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 36,041
- 472
- 126
Originally posted by: QueBert
this is far better than a mouse IMHO. The only downside is most FPS's don't have support for it. I played thru HL2 with it and it killed my $80 mouse. I was sad when I had to give it back to the dude and go back to my Razer mouse. He had the pistol grip handle for it with trigger. I believe all Source engine games work with it by default. It's really a shame more developers don't add support. This is definitely the mouse killer FPS controller - if it only had better support
For $190 it better be better than an $80 mouse.
Cheeseplug
Senior member
- Dec 16, 2008
- 430
- 0
- 0
I am an arrow whore too.
Shift for sprint/walk, Ctrl for jump, Enter for use, delete for reload, end/page down for misc depending on game, num 0 for crouch and num1 for prone. num 4 and 5 for leaning, num 2 when there is toggle voice activation.
Hasn't failed me yet
Shift for sprint/walk, Ctrl for jump, Enter for use, delete for reload, end/page down for misc depending on game, num 0 for crouch and num1 for prone. num 4 and 5 for leaning, num 2 when there is toggle voice activation.
Hasn't failed me yet
gorobei
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2007
- 4,031
- 1,530
- 136
i got the wolfking. it is ok, but they tried to shove too many keys in there and the wasd keys are too small. it's also missing enter and esc, so you still have to have your regular kb around even just to type chat stuff. that means you need a very wide desk.
i would love to see a joystick sort of device with a bunch of keys/buttons on the grip to take the place of a kb. 4 keys with no range of sensitivity that take up 3 fingers and a lot of real estate vs. the range and simplicity of a thumbstick seems very wasteful. something like a HOTAS throttle unit with a palm down grip and thumb buttons for jump and crouch, and trigger keys with alt functions for all the other game actions.
i would love to see a joystick sort of device with a bunch of keys/buttons on the grip to take the place of a kb. 4 keys with no range of sensitivity that take up 3 fingers and a lot of real estate vs. the range and simplicity of a thumbstick seems very wasteful. something like a HOTAS throttle unit with a palm down grip and thumb buttons for jump and crouch, and trigger keys with alt functions for all the other game actions.
QueBert
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2002
- 22,992
- 1,185
- 126
Originally posted by: zerocool84
Originally posted by: QueBert
this is far better than a mouse IMHO. The only downside is most FPS's don't have support for it. I played thru HL2 with it and it killed my $80 mouse. I was sad when I had to give it back to the dude and go back to my Razer mouse. He had the pistol grip handle for it with trigger. I believe all Source engine games work with it by default. It's really a shame more developers don't add support. This is definitely the mouse killer FPS controller - if it only had better support
For $190 it better be better than an $80 mouse.
Fry's has them for $99, regardless of price no mouse touches it for controlling a shooter. I had the force feedback turned on and HL2 was like a whole new game.
Originally posted by: FuriousJorge
First of all, WASD will invariably turn out to be QEFCXZ[SHIFT][CAPS] from time to time. There is just no way around it.
Second of all, the arrows have a natural semi-circle of keys which more intuitively map to character body control, IMO.
...
And no matter if you disagree with all of my points, no rational person can disagree with this:
In the 1870s the QWERTY keyboard wasn't even the best setup for typing. It was just the best setup for typewriters. There is no way I can be convinced that after ~140 years the QWERTY keyboard is still the paramount of FPS character control technology... that it cannot POSSIBLY be improved upon...
I still want to use the mouse with my right hand, tho... implying otherwise would be heresy
Since I've posted that, a bunch of other people have explained why they also prefer the arrows.
I get that many people feel this way, and that most prefer WASD over the arrows.
Still, as you can see in this thread, many people don't, and I understand their logic in every case. I don't think you are gonna succeed in proving anyone wrong. I play mostly Warcraft 3 now (not WoW), but I can tell you that in college no one could touch me in FPS.
I've seen that crazy mouse replacement, and I could see why it would be better than a mouse. I still think a mouse is good enough for my budget, and I'd rather keep using a mouse and replace the WASD $10 keyboard for now.
I bet people who have been gaming since the early DOOM and Descent type games are more likely to use the arrows than WASD. I don't know why SOME (not all) games don't have the arrows and surrounding keys as secondary options to WASD.
To each their own.
Originally posted by: QueBert
Originally posted by: zerocool84
Originally posted by: QueBert
this is far better than a mouse IMHO. The only downside is most FPS's don't have support for it. I played thru HL2 with it and it killed my $80 mouse. I was sad when I had to give it back to the dude and go back to my Razer mouse. He had the pistol grip handle for it with trigger. I believe all Source engine games work with it by default. It's really a shame more developers don't add support. This is definitely the mouse killer FPS controller - if it only had better support
For $190 it better be better than an $80 mouse.
Fry's has them for $99, regardless of price no mouse touches it for controlling a shooter. I had the force feedback turned on and HL2 was like a whole new game.
That actually sounds like it could be tons of fun.
Schadenfroh
Elite Member
- Mar 8, 2003
- 38,416
- 4
- 0
The Panther XL was the best "controller" for FPShooters. Unfortunately, one could not snipe with a trackball as well as a mouse.
videogames101
Diamond Member
- Aug 24, 2005
- 6,783
- 27
- 91
I could definitely see how it could be better. Still, I'd have to try it to believe it. It certainly looks fun.
If you think about it, it's basically a mouse operating on the same spacial plain as the monitor, with a fixed range of motion.
The mouse has had a good run, and I love it for fps. People who don't recognize it's superiority to a gamepad for FPS have either never tried it or are in denial. Still, like the keyboard, you'd think that surely it could be improved upon beyond adding more buttons and DPI.
I'm more concerned about replacing they keyboard, for now. The mouse works better than just 'well enough' for the aiming hand.
The converse to that statement is that all those extra keys cause more mishits. It also assumes that there is no advantage to putting at least a little space between the directional controls and everything else. I think a lot of people would disagree with both those premises.
I still say to each their own.
Malak
Lifer
- Dec 4, 2004
- 14,696
- 2
- 0
No, nobody has "explained" anything. A couple people chimed in saying they use the arrow keys and how, but not why. The only thing you said was something about how you have problems with mishits and the arrow keys configuration is more "intuitive" for you. However, the closeness of the keys is exactly why WASD works best. Maybe your FFS prevents you from taking advantage of this, but that's why it is the default. It is the most practical setup.
The problem with having a seperate device is real estate, plain and simple. Like someone else said, to use something like the Wolfking or other device you gotta have room, because you aren't eliminating the keyboard no matter what.
videogames101
Diamond Member
- Aug 24, 2005
- 6,783
- 27
- 91
So, more functionality means more mistakes? Whether there are more mis-hits or not i'd still take the trade.
I don't see how nothing you've read constitutes an explanation to you.
Keep in mind: since most games allow alternate buttons, so arrows are also often the default.
Either that, or as the lefties explained, it is farther away from your mouse hand so more comfortable if you can't just move your keyboard.
You seem to like that real-estate argument.
Here's another reason: my hand is probably bigger than yours. I'm just going by the laws of averages. I need space between my directional and other action keys.
Finally, did you ever stop to consider that these games are, out of the box, set up for the lowest common denominator. That would be the guy who has never played an FPS before. Of course he needs reload to be 'R' and crouch to be 'C'. This person has no frame of reference for anything else, so how is he going to remember where they are at.
The devs know that experienced players will tweak the defaults, but the beginners need the defaults to be 'easiest' not the 'best', so what I'm saying is that your argument for why WASD is default can be used to prove my point.
So, given enough space, you have no argument against it. Gotcha.
Can someone explain this to me? I count access to about 50 keys with my left hand over the arrows.
I don't understand how having access to 60 instead adds more functionality. Show me a FPS that requires 60 keyboard bindings, and only having 50 keys within reach constitutes a loss of 'functionality', and I'll show you a game that sucks.
It never ceases to amaze me how many forms of Fanboyism you find on any given forum. WASD fanboysism is totally new to me, though I should have probably predicted this.
'MY WAY IS THE BEST!'
The problem with that argument is that it is simply not always true. Plenty of people have chimed in and explained why arrows are 'THE BEST' for them. There is the evidence that proves my argument: 'WASD is not THE BEST for EVERYONE.'
These people are then asked to provide evidence that their way is better. Why doesn't someone explain why having all the keys cramped together is the best for everyone?
The only argument I have seen is 'keys per unit of space.'
Well, I guess that explains why the numpad, the insert/delete rows, the function keys, and the arrows are never separated from any of the other keys on the keyboard... oh wait... they are are actually almost always separated from the other keys.
I guess that explains why everyone loves tiny cramped laptop keyboards. They can reach almost any key with one hand... Oh wait, no one loves those...
Is there some academic peer reviewed research showing that one way is always superior to the other, down to every single person in the world?
Of course not. That hypothesis is absurd.
I think the keyboard/mouse works really well for most, so most have no reason to change. That is probably the biggest reason these FPS controller things have not gotten bigger.
videogames101
Diamond Member
- Aug 24, 2005
- 6,783
- 27
- 91
50 From the arrow keys? Dude, you're just bs'ing now.
Not to mention alt-*key* and control-*key functionality with WASD.
Not to mention alt-*key* and control-*key functionality with WASD.
eggrolls
Senior member
- Oct 11, 2006
- 268
- 1
- 76
On a keyboard with a standard layout, there's quite a bit of space between the arrow keys and the adjacent keys... approximately one key worth of space between "up arrow" and "end", and about half a key from the left and right sides. With arrow keys, you have to reach farther to use those extra keys, which means more time required to move your fingers. That's a significant disadvantage.
From the Belkin n52 pictures I've seen, the spacing between the keys seem to be the same as a regular keyboard. If spacing has an advantage, it is lost.
It is true that the Belkin has fewer keys around its arrow keys. (It's basically missing the ~12345 and Ctrl, Win, Alt, and Space on a WASD setup.) If your game requires more keys than that, then you have to bind them to the wheel or the thumb pad. IMO, someone who's really good with analog sticks might like the Belkin. I'm definitely not one of those people. However, I'm not convinced that having extra buttons around the arrows/WASD could cause more mishits... unless a person is dexterous with his thumbs but not the other fingers.
I haven't read through this whole thread, but I do have an older Saitek Pro Gamer Command Unit (http://www.trustedreviews.com/...Gamer-Command-Unit/p1) that looks similar to the n52 mentioned.
The one thing that really irks me is the inability to support 3 keys simultaneously pressed down. So, for example, if I am moving diagonally ("W" and "D" pressed down) and I suddenly want to crouch ("SHIFT"), the Saitek will not register the 3rd key. My keyboards have never had this problem.
The one thing that really irks me is the inability to support 3 keys simultaneously pressed down. So, for example, if I am moving diagonally ("W" and "D" pressed down) and I suddenly want to crouch ("SHIFT"), the Saitek will not register the 3rd key. My keyboards have never had this problem.
What do you bind K to? I'm making a point, which you are proving. You CAN reach about 10 more keys from WASD then from the arrows?
How many keys do you NEED to hit while running? 10? 20?
You DON'T NEED to use K with the arrow button setup any more than you NEED to use [SEMICOLON] while running with WASD.
If I did NEED TO use it, I would bind it to some action like 'Check Map' which you don't need to do while running. Actually, 'Check Map' is always [TAB] for me, but you get the point.
I've never played a game using the arrow set up and said to myself: if only I could jam 10 or 20 more buttons in here. That would be the move.
Look at console controllers: granted they suck for FPS, but cancel out WASD/Analog-1 and MOUSE/Analog2. A PS2 controller gives you 12 more buttons to work with. Sure, your thumb gets a little more work, but 40% of you hands do nothing.
Why don't they add 8 or 16 more buttons I could hit with my pinkie, middle, and ring fingers?
Because no FPS, actually, no game worth playing needs that many buttons (non-console genres excluded).
There are plenty of buttons within reach of the arrows to allow you to do whatever you need to do. If not, get more buttons on your mouse. Why deal with cramped keys? That's my opinion, it might not be yours.
I really do have big hands.
And for the record, yes, I could kit either K + A OR K + [Right Arrow] + [NUM PAD 0] easily with my left hand. I suspect most people could.
I could do it comfortably, but I don't know about AS consistently as I could hit all them big keys around there like [ENTER] and [ALT] and [CTRL] and [NUM PAD 0] and those three convenient keys right above [Up Arrow].
I'm about as likely to bind something to K as I am to bind [NUM PAD 9] as far as the games I play.
I played Doom, Duke, Descent, HL, CS, MoH, the list goes on.
I was a keyboard turner for a long time. Once I got used to mouse aiming, I got banned regularly for using aimbot (hint: I painted a dot on my screen).
I used arrow keys for a long time. Once I switched to WASD, I stopped sniping and got banned regularly for wall hacking (hint: I used headphones and listened to footsteps).
I stopped playing FPS a few years ago. Too much whining.
Still, unless something fundamental has changed, there isn't a significantly better combination for keyboard/mouse (the universal standard for all personal computers today) than WASD for movement, mouse for aiming. All your important keys (movement, jump/crouch, reload, weaps, vision, chat) are accessible without moving your palm. Your free look, aiming, maybe reload, tab weap, zoom, secondary, can all be done with the mouse.
WASD is default partly due to tradition, but mostly due to functionality. Notice that every keyboard replacement on the market share the same qualities: Lots of easy to access keys with finger location readily available by touch. The left side of the keyboard shares those qualities. The arrow keys are simply too isolated for games that require more than 10 keys.
With FPS gamers stressing over latencies measured in milliseconds, it's much better to simply have all your keys accessible without moving your hand. Also, WASD setups are less likely to mishit because they have so many keys within reach without moving the hand at all. Using arrow keys for movement in certain games will increase the number of mishits because you have to move your hand to reach keys. The human mind is better able to process movement of only the fingers as opposed to fingers + elbow/wrist. There's a reason all the popular keyboard replacements on the market are designed to have the hand resting at all times.
I'm almost willing to bet nobody will completely read this post.
The keyboard was originally designed for typing. Qwerty layout came to be as a way to minimize collisions between typewriter keys. As a side effect, that also increases typing speed since you're far less likely to use the same finger for two letters in a row. However, the qwerty layout was never verified to have the absolute minimum number of collisions. Also, a hundred years or so of evolving language would pretty much destroy any probability test on letter use. Still, like many inventions, it has worked "good enough" for so long, which means that manufacturing and re-training costs are minimal. Designing, implementing, then training a "perfect" evolving solution has so far been cost prohibitive.
Notice with a keyboard, the most commonly used function keys (keys other than alphanumeric) are placed within easy reach and the most often used (space) is the largest. Large keys at the edges reduce the chances of mishits. The 6 insert/home/etc keys, arrow keys, function keys, and numpad keys were added later. Arrows and insert/home only came with computers (along with ctrl, alt, esc, etc). However, since they were rarely used, there was no reason to keep them as easily accessible, especially considering the standard two-hand setup with index fingers over F and J where you can easily reach more often used keys like Return/Enter, Backspace, Tab, etc. The numpad is yet another separate section because the proper way to use it is with one hand (that's why there's a ridge on 5) so since you're already breaking the standard two-hand posture, there's no reason to try and fit it around the standard alphanumeric.
That being said, keyboards are not the ideal interface for gaming. A full VR suit with equivalent laser weapons would come close. However, since it's a part of every single personal computer on the planet, developers have little reason to require anything different. Flight sim buffs and hardcore gamers in general will buy their own replacements for that extra edge and experience. Everyone else (the vast majority) will go with "good enough" and keep the extra money in their wallets and the extra real estate on their desks.
PS: I really want to see someone access 50 keys with their hands over the arrow keys. Either the fingers would be so long the keyboard would probably be impractical or the keyboard so small the keys get hit 3 at a time. I have small hands (even though I'm 186cm) so from the arrow keys with 3 fingers on < ^ and >, I can only hit 11 keys. To hit 50 keys, I would need another 3cm of length on each digit. With only 1 cm more length, I can hit maybe 8 more. From WASD, I can hit 26 keys without moving my hand.
I was a keyboard turner for a long time. Once I got used to mouse aiming, I got banned regularly for using aimbot (hint: I painted a dot on my screen).
I used arrow keys for a long time. Once I switched to WASD, I stopped sniping and got banned regularly for wall hacking (hint: I used headphones and listened to footsteps).
I stopped playing FPS a few years ago. Too much whining.
Still, unless something fundamental has changed, there isn't a significantly better combination for keyboard/mouse (the universal standard for all personal computers today) than WASD for movement, mouse for aiming. All your important keys (movement, jump/crouch, reload, weaps, vision, chat) are accessible without moving your palm. Your free look, aiming, maybe reload, tab weap, zoom, secondary, can all be done with the mouse.
WASD is default partly due to tradition, but mostly due to functionality. Notice that every keyboard replacement on the market share the same qualities: Lots of easy to access keys with finger location readily available by touch. The left side of the keyboard shares those qualities. The arrow keys are simply too isolated for games that require more than 10 keys.
With FPS gamers stressing over latencies measured in milliseconds, it's much better to simply have all your keys accessible without moving your hand. Also, WASD setups are less likely to mishit because they have so many keys within reach without moving the hand at all. Using arrow keys for movement in certain games will increase the number of mishits because you have to move your hand to reach keys. The human mind is better able to process movement of only the fingers as opposed to fingers + elbow/wrist. There's a reason all the popular keyboard replacements on the market are designed to have the hand resting at all times.
I'm almost willing to bet nobody will completely read this post.
The keyboard was originally designed for typing. Qwerty layout came to be as a way to minimize collisions between typewriter keys. As a side effect, that also increases typing speed since you're far less likely to use the same finger for two letters in a row. However, the qwerty layout was never verified to have the absolute minimum number of collisions. Also, a hundred years or so of evolving language would pretty much destroy any probability test on letter use. Still, like many inventions, it has worked "good enough" for so long, which means that manufacturing and re-training costs are minimal. Designing, implementing, then training a "perfect" evolving solution has so far been cost prohibitive.
Notice with a keyboard, the most commonly used function keys (keys other than alphanumeric) are placed within easy reach and the most often used (space) is the largest. Large keys at the edges reduce the chances of mishits. The 6 insert/home/etc keys, arrow keys, function keys, and numpad keys were added later. Arrows and insert/home only came with computers (along with ctrl, alt, esc, etc). However, since they were rarely used, there was no reason to keep them as easily accessible, especially considering the standard two-hand setup with index fingers over F and J where you can easily reach more often used keys like Return/Enter, Backspace, Tab, etc. The numpad is yet another separate section because the proper way to use it is with one hand (that's why there's a ridge on 5) so since you're already breaking the standard two-hand posture, there's no reason to try and fit it around the standard alphanumeric.
That being said, keyboards are not the ideal interface for gaming. A full VR suit with equivalent laser weapons would come close. However, since it's a part of every single personal computer on the planet, developers have little reason to require anything different. Flight sim buffs and hardcore gamers in general will buy their own replacements for that extra edge and experience. Everyone else (the vast majority) will go with "good enough" and keep the extra money in their wallets and the extra real estate on their desks.
PS: I really want to see someone access 50 keys with their hands over the arrow keys. Either the fingers would be so long the keyboard would probably be impractical or the keyboard so small the keys get hit 3 at a time. I have small hands (even though I'm 186cm) so from the arrow keys with 3 fingers on < ^ and >, I can only hit 11 keys. To hit 50 keys, I would need another 3cm of length on each digit. With only 1 cm more length, I can hit maybe 8 more. From WASD, I can hit 26 keys without moving my hand.
I see no hard data there, just a lot of subjective conjecture.
This argument is beyond stupid. You cannot prove that I or anyone would be a better gamer if we switched to WASD.
You cannot prove that you couldn't take someone who's never played a KB+Mouse FPS, and find that for every game this person would be better (however you define that) with WASD.
The proof is in the pudding. At sizable minority of people CHOOSE to use the arrows. How many of the people that CHOOSE NOT TO are doing it just because it's the default in that particular game?
I'm not arguing that WASD isn't what's best for you or the next guy. Technically speaking, my hypothesis is simple:
The arrow keys are better for some people.
Your hypothesis just looks wrong, without even bothering to look into it:
WASD is better for EVERYONE.
I remember learning at a young age in school that universal statements are almost universally wrong. That's even more true when made on a forum with no sources.
I'll concede that some game may exist, which I've never played, that puts the arrow keys at a disadvantage to WASD *for reasons other than binding problems*. I haven't played it. And I wouldn't want to because I actually live my life and I know that when a game forces me to use WASD I enjoy it less. I'm not as good. That's not theory, that is reality.
This argument is beyond stupid. You cannot prove that I or anyone would be a better gamer if we switched to WASD.
You cannot prove that you couldn't take someone who's never played a KB+Mouse FPS, and find that for every game this person would be better (however you define that) with WASD.
The proof is in the pudding. At sizable minority of people CHOOSE to use the arrows. How many of the people that CHOOSE NOT TO are doing it just because it's the default in that particular game?
I'm not arguing that WASD isn't what's best for you or the next guy. Technically speaking, my hypothesis is simple:
The arrow keys are better for some people.
Your hypothesis just looks wrong, without even bothering to look into it:
WASD is better for EVERYONE.
I remember learning at a young age in school that universal statements are almost universally wrong. That's even more true when made on a forum with no sources.
I'll concede that some game may exist, which I've never played, that puts the arrow keys at a disadvantage to WASD *for reasons other than binding problems*. I haven't played it. And I wouldn't want to because I actually live my life and I know that when a game forces me to use WASD I enjoy it less. I'm not as good. That's not theory, that is reality.
Funny you should mention consoles. I was just playing Demon's Souls on my PS3. Not a FPS to be sure, but I still found myself wondering why the controller doesn't take input from more than 3 buttons mashed down. For that game, I use both analog (movement + aim/look) a guard key, two attack keys (I should learn to bash, which would be attack 3), a use key, two weapon switch keys, and a 2-hand/1 hand key when fighting. More often than not, the controller has trouble keeping up and this is a game that was not designed with a keyboard in mind.
With game using a keyboard, I find myself using 1-2 movement keys (you don't do diagonals or strafe circle?), and one other button down simultaneously on a regular basis, sometimes add one if I happen to be chatting too. Remapping a couple keys to the mouse helps with the keyboard, but then you run into the fact that I don't palm my mouse, I use thumb and pinkie because it's more precise.
The issue isn't mashing 10 keys at once. The issue is mashing all 10 keys less than one second from each other. Between movement, weapon switching, weapon reloading, calling up the map, secondary weapons, flashlights/night vision, you can get anywhere from 8-20 keys that are used on a regular basis depending on the game. With more and more games being multi-platform, that issue will go away since consoles simply lack buttons. Even if keyboard suddenly become standard issue for console bundles, it won't matter because they will still ship with controllers and by then, motion sensing will be accurate enough to replace the mouse.
Side note: my favorite quirky interface has to be one guy who played with two trackballs. He was actually quite good with it, too.
Well, if you were simply going to reject testimony as subjective conjecture, why didn't you reject your own assumptions right off the bat?
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