Keeping knees out while squating

[Lazarus52980]

I have 2 "students" who I have been teaching the squat to that are struggling with keeping their knees out on the way back up during the squat. (If it matters, one is my 7 year old son doing low bar squat, and one is a 22 year old male doing high bar squat).

How can I help them to strengthen that? (I presume its a hip adductor, but I am not sure)

Let me know if I need to post a video, I can do so if its helpful.

 

[CPA]

Are their toes pointed out and heels under shoulders?

 

[Lazarus52980]

Are their toes pointed out and heels under shoulders?

I'll see if I can post a video when I get home tonight, but from looking at it, yes, I think so.

 

[momeNt]

There are some fantastic diagrams in starting strength about feet placement, and knee placement. I recommend that book especially because teaching a 7 year old bad form is probably something you REALLY don't want to do.

 

[Lazarus52980]

There are some fantastic diagrams in starting strength about feet placement, and knee placement. I recommend that book especially because teaching a 7 year old bad form is probably something you REALLY don't want to do.

His form is not THAT bad, and it might be that when we went up in weight last night it was just tough for him, but regardless, I will try to post a video so everyone can see.


That aside, no one has answered me yet! Anything we can do to help him keep his knees out?

 

[momeNt]

His form is not THAT bad, and it might be that when we went up in weight last night it was just tough for him, but regardless, I will try to post a video so everyone can see.


That aside, no one has answered me yet! Anything we can do to help him keep his knees out?

Maybe log in and download this video. This is back when Rippetoe associated himself with crossfit, he has since ended that relationship.

http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/06/knee-position-and-muscle-mass.tpl

 

[Koing]

Goblet squat video from youtube.

Koing

 

[Lazarus52980]

Ok, here is the video of last nights work. The knee thing is pretty new (likely because of the recent addition of more weight).

http://youtu.be/0oOj66V1reA

 

[Koing]

Ok, here is the video of last nights work. The knee thing is pretty new (likely because of the recent addition of more weight).

http://youtu.be/0oOj66V1reA

DUDE you have to make him lift less weight. How about just the bar? Depth isn't great and he should be doing the reps easier. He is 7yrs old.

I'd make him do just the bar and see how it works out. He is young, he should be flexible and be able to easily squat deeper than parallel. Get a video of just the bar for say 5-8reps. Also don't use a strict rep range for your son. For kids this young just gauge effort by their faces. No problems cutting their reps short or so.

Koing

 

[Lazarus52980]

DUDE you have to make him lift less weight. How about just the bar? Depth isn't great and he should be doing the reps easier. He is 7yrs old.

I'd make him do just the bar and see how it works out. He is young, he should be flexible and be able to easily squat deeper than parallel. Get a video of just the bar for say 5-8reps. Also don't use a strict rep range for your son. For kids this young just gauge effort by their faces. No problems cutting their reps short or so.

Koing

I know his form was not that great on that lift, that was why I am asking for advice/assistance.

Please don't judge the whole progress on just that lift though...It was his first session going up in weight. We got 5 or sometimes 10 sessions progressing 1 more lift each session before we move up 5 lbs and do it again, so I am not attempting to push him forward with any degree of speed, I only want him to make just a little progress (of one more rep)each session.

We do have some issues with depth, but please remember that we are doing low bar, so just breaking parallel is our goal, not the ATG of a high bar squat. (I am sure you (Koing) are aware, but this is also for others reading too).

Please also take into consideration this lift from a few weeks ago that I posted on the SS forums. The advice I got on this lift was to have him get his toes pointed further out, and to adjust his neck to a more neutral position.

To be fair, the main person also felt the bar might be a little high, but I disagree with that, this is as low as we can get and keep the bar stable. We might be able to do a little lower as he gets older, but this is the best we can do for right now.

Lastly, why would I not do a "strict" rep range? (meaning, why would he not know how many reps he wants to achieve for this session?) I would expect him to have to push at least a little, and as long as his back is not rounding, and he is not doing a good morning (I don't feel he did either, even on the most recent lift), I don't feel he is in any danger of hurting himself.

Am I totally off base?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

His feet are pointed way too far out and it seems like Koing might be right - the weight's too heavy and he can't maintain good form with it. The feet being pointed that far out essentially make it much easier for the knees to fall in (pronated feet result in valgus knee stress, increased dynamic Q angle = knees fall in). The weight thing is pretty easy to explain. Work more drills to keep his legs out with lighter weights. He may need other accessory work to help with his hip external rotator and abductor strength as well.

 

[Java Cafe]

Two years ago, I had a terrible knee injury (which, I believe, I *might* have gotten from squatting with knees buckling in on the way up). That resulted in steroid shots and two orthopedic surgeons telling me that I should never squat again! So, for one year, I gave up working out altogether.

I got back slowly into it. First, squats with no bar. Next, with a broom. Then, with the bar. Made slow, deliberate progress. Now, I am back to squatting 5 x 5 at a little over my bodyweight. This time, I am *very* cautious about not letting my knees buckle in.

In his forum, Mehdi (of SL 5X5) once suggested that you try to keep the knees out while going down, and remember to keep the out on the way up. That helped.

And, from my last experience, I know that my form would go to hell in a hand basket as soon as I crossed my body weight in squats. I am only a novice, but wavering/buckling knees may be an indication that you need to back off on the weight, and focus on getting the form nailed first.

Good luck.

 

[Koing]

I know his form was not that great on that lift, that was why I am asking for advice/assistance.

Please don't judge the whole progress on just that lift though...It was his first session going up in weight. We got 5 or sometimes 10 sessions progressing 1 more lift each session before we move up 5 lbs and do it again, so I am not attempting to push him forward with any degree of speed, I only want him to make just a little progress (of one more rep)each session.

We do have some issues with depth, but please remember that we are doing low bar, so just breaking parallel is our goal, not the ATG of a high bar squat. (I am sure you (Koing) are aware, but this is also for others reading too).

Please also take into consideration this lift from a few weeks ago that I posted on the SS forums. The advice I got on this lift was to have him get his toes pointed further out, and to adjust his neck to a more neutral position.

To be fair, the main person also felt the bar might be a little high, but I disagree with that, this is as low as we can get and keep the bar stable. We might be able to do a little lower as he gets older, but this is the best we can do for right now.

Lastly, why would I not do a "strict" rep range? (meaning, why would he not know how many reps he wants to achieve for this session?) I would expect him to have to push at least a little, and as long as his back is not rounding, and he is not doing a good morning (I don't feel he did either, even on the most recent lift), I don't feel he is in any danger of hurting himself.

Am I totally off base?

I'd get a band and get him to do crabby side walks, but again your son is 7yrs old. He really shouldn't need to do this yet with the weights. Just use lighter weights and get perfect form. I do have to stress he is 7yrs old. He is no where near the same as he will be when he is say 10 or 11yrs. I know this because my little brother started to train around 7yrs as well. We stopped as his attention span was all over the place. We got him back in to the gym at 11 and he would do simple stuff. PERFECT FORM.

The rep range is a thing for kids. Too many variables and the weight is not important so this is why you just have them squat, aim for say 6-8-10reps (nothing heavy) and if they are struggling at 6 or 8, JUST STOP THEM. Why? He is a kid and shouldn't have his form break down. Better to be safe than sorry with kids. I'm not one to f0ck about with kids training. Take it easy. If he had perfect form and wasn't struggling then perfect. Do it for a bit longer or do a few more reps but he isn't.

Get him some oly shoes.

He is doing low bar, so get him to parallel. Make him do it properly.

Koing

 

[Lazarus52980]

I'd get a band and get him to do crabby side walks, but again your son is 7yrs old. He really shouldn't need to do this yet with the weights. Just use lighter weights and get perfect form. I do have to stress he is 7yrs old. He is no where near the same as he will be when he is say 10 or 11yrs. I know this because my little brother started to train around 7yrs as well. We stopped as his attention span was all over the place. We got him back in to the gym at 11 and he would do simple stuff. PERFECT FORM.

The rep range is a thing for kids. Too many variables and the weight is not important so this is why you just have them squat, aim for say 6-8-10reps (nothing heavy) and if they are struggling at 6 or 8, JUST STOP THEM. Why? He is a kid and shouldn't have his form break down. Better to be safe than sorry with kids. I'm not one to f0ck about with kids training. Take it easy. If he had perfect form and wasn't struggling then perfect. Do it for a bit longer or do a few more reps but he isn't.

Get him some oly shoes.

He is doing low bar, so get him to parallel. Make him do it properly.

Koing

I will look into the band and the "crabby walks". Is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYdbe8T9dJI) what you are referring to?

Alright, I will take the advice and drop him back to 10 lbs today. Knowing him it will likely cause an argument, but I want to do what is best for him. I will get a video of him from the same angle as the most recent one and we can see what everyone thinks

BTW, while he is 7, his attention span is a lot better than mine is. I very rarely need to re-focus him. He is very goal oriented, so he is constantly driven to succeed and do more weight and better form. To be honest, I think he would be totally bored if I dropped him under 70 at this point. I will just emphasize that he needs to get the right depth on each rep before he is allowed to move up again to 75.

We'll see what tonight brings.

 

[Koing]

I will look into the band and the "crabby walks". Is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYdbe8T9dJI) what you are referring to?

Alright, I will take the advice and drop him back to 10 lbs today. Knowing him it will likely cause an argument, but I want to do what is best for him. I will get a video of him from the same angle as the most recent one and we can see what everyone thinks

BTW, while he is 7, his attention span is a lot better than mine is. I very rarely need to re-focus him. He is very goal oriented, so he is constantly driven to succeed and do more weight and better form. To be honest, I think he would be totally bored if I dropped him under 70 at this point. I will just emphasize that he needs to get the right depth on each rep before he is allowed to move up again to 75.

We'll see what tonight brings.

Yes that is the exercise.

Yes emphasize he has to do it right. No use with less than perfect form at his age. The weight really isn't important at his age. But technique, tempo and speed is. My brother didn't go over your sons weight for about at least a year and he was a professional coach 2x a week.

Koing

 

[Lazarus52980]

Yes that is the exercise.

Yes emphasize he has to do it right. No use with less than perfect form at his age. The weight really isn't important at his age. But technique, tempo and speed is. My brother didn't go over your sons weight for about at least a year and he was a professional coach 2x a week.

Koing

If it matters, we have been doing it for over a year now, and we do it 3 times a week...(However, I am FAR from a professional coach...).

Koing, thanks as always. I think I would not be as likely to take the advice if it was someone else, but I have really come to respect the advice I get from you and Socially Challenged (and others sometimes too!)

We shall see what tonight brings!

 

[Koing]

If it matters, we have been doing it for over a year now, and we do it 3 times a week...(However, I am FAR from a professional coach...).

Koing, thanks as always. I think I would not be as likely to take the advice if it was someone else, but I have really come to respect the advice I get from you and Socially Challenged (and others sometimes too!)

We shall see what tonight brings!

Cool man, cheers.

I only know what I know because of my coach, through my own reading and competing over 14yrs.

Just make sure he has perfect form regardless of the weight and if he is struggling just stop the set early. No biggie

Another thing is watch out for growth spurts. It probably won't happen for a few years but just watch out for it. My bro grew about 4inches in about 6months from 15-16 or so. The coach eased up on the weights as he had to get use to being dramatically taller very fast in a short space of time.

Koing

 

[Lazarus52980]

Cool man, cheers.

I only know what I know because of my coach, through my own reading and competing over 14yrs.

Just make sure he has perfect form regardless of the weight and if he is struggling just stop the set early. No biggie

Another thing is watch out for growth spurts. It probably won't happen for a few years but just watch out for it. My bro grew about 4inches in about 6months from 15-16 or so. The coach eased up on the weights as he had to get use to being dramatically taller very fast in a short space of time.

Koing

Actually, I that might be what we are running into... In the year that we have been lifting he has gone from 25th % for height, and 31th % for weight to more than 50th % for height and 69th % for weight... I had not even considered that...

 

[Koing]

Actually, I that might be what we are running into... In the year that we have been lifting he has gone from 25th % for height, and 31th % for weight to more than 50th % for height and 69th % for weight... I had not even considered that...

Yes, even more so to keep the weights LIGHT so he can adjust to his own balance and new limb lengths. Growing tall will throw your movements off and more so when you don't have the muscle to compensate for it.

Koing

 

[allisonbanks]

yes, hip mobility would help. lots of great info here: http://www.mobilitywod.com/