Justice Department memo reveals legal case for...

[sigurros81]

What happens when the gov't has solid information that you are tied to groups that promote the above? When we hear about you dying from a drone strike, should we celebrate removing another terrorist?

You can do whatever you want when and if that time comes.

 

[momeNt]

Can these drones be outfitted with grapple hooks to actually start capturing people whose capture was previously "infeasible"?

Many my die from the time they are grappled to when they arrive at a hospital to be treated and tried (assuming they are literally hooked by their shoulders from the grapple), but that's better than only being able to kill them in a drone strike.

I hope, for everyone's sake, that the government is developing drone human-capture technology.

 

[ivwshane]

Who?


I checked your links and saw a tiny little murmur of unhappiness, not the tsunami of anger and outrage that we'd be seeing from every media outlet from the NY Times to CNN if this was taking place under a Republican president, but keep living in a fantasy world.

Hmm lets see:

The story about the memos were first released by NBC, is that left enough?:
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_new...egal-case-for-drone-strikes-on-americans?lite

Huffington post wrote an article about the increased attention it's been getting (with sources you can read), are they left enough?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/drone-media-coverage_n_2474250.html

And as I've already pointed out, this subject has been talked about for at least a year.

I'm sorry but the only reason you think it's not being covered is because the right wing sources you follow haven't been out defending this like they did under Bush.

You are so stuck in your fucking bubble that unless you hear outrage in it you think it isn't happening.


But you know whats really funny? Most of your "outrage" links are about people in other countries showing their distaste for Bush. So if you have a problem, it's not with the left, it's with the rest of the world.

Keep trying, some day you are bound to be right (in more ways than one).


Oh and let me just add some of the things codepink has been up to so you can shove that where the sun doesn't shine:

http://coolrevolution.net/2013/01/2...earing-demands-end-to-military-aid-to-israel/
http://bigstory.ap.org/photo/cia-protest
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Code-Pink-protests-drone-attacks-by-U-S-4028537.php
https://www.freespeech.org/video/holding-administration-accountable

Your bubble probably smells like a fart

 

[thraashman]

What happens when the gov't has solid information that you are tied to groups that promote the above? When we hear about you dying from a drone strike, should we celebrate removing another terrorist?

Well if he's a resident of the United States you won't hear about him dying in a drone strike because law enforcement agencies in the US have jurisdiction to apprehend him. This drone strikes situation will only come up in places where we don't have law enforcement jurisdiction. That is the inherent problem here in fact. In a country where we don't have law enforcement powers and we can't trust the local governments to apprehend, we begin to run out of options.

 

[benzylic]

Only thing on this that surprises me is that people are shocked. Hopefully this will generate enough outrage that they ban them.

drone strikes or hell even drones should not be used.

Legality of using drones to hit Americans aside, the problem with banning drones is people dont like the alternatives any more. Without drones we would be back to using guys from JSOC or CIA SAD to hit compounds on snatch and grab missions, which isnt necessarily a bad thing. The problem is then you need a detention policy (Gitmo), and a rendition policy to bring them back to the states. Many people didnt like either of those two policies any more than they like drones. So that would seemingly be off the table too.

With drones and snatch missions out then we're down to using local govt forces, but often those forces are unable to carry out the mission, like say Somalia, or they just dont care like Pakistan. Those both assume they are "friendly" governments. Otherwise you are then arming local militias and warlords to do the job, which has its own problems like who are we actually arming.

 

[Angry Irishman]

When the hell are people, Americans, going to understand? I'm not going to read this entire thread because it's most likely a tit for tat about which party is doing what. The overarching trend of the government slowly stripping liberties away didn't just start with the Obama administration although he is certainly taking matters to a new level.

The Constitution isn't really a complicated document. There are protections built into this document that belong and protect the people of this country so long as they recognize this. DUE PROCESS...it's not debatable, there's no modified process that allows the President to determine justice. All of the amendments are under attack...not just the second amendment. This is happening whether your left or right...try being American and quit turning on each other and recognize the PROBLEM.

It's disgusting reading through these posts listening to a demographic of people who I assume are mostly educated, veterans, younger who are so zealously aligned with their chosen parties that they fail to recognize what is happening right under their noses.

If you are of the opinion that this administration is centrist and acting for Americans protection while everything requires immediate action you are dead wrong. There are things happening that will drastically change the basis of what this country stands for now and certainly for our children. Also, if you think it's just the left or the right side of Congress to blame, you again would be mistaken.

Gun nuts are worried about tyranny? I could list multiple reasons to be concerned; this murder strategy just being one. Gee, I don't know why....

 

[momeNt]

Legality of using drones to hit Americans aside, the problem with banning drones is people dont like the alternatives any more. Without drones we would be back to using guys from JSOC or CIA SAD to hit compounds on snatch and grab missions, which isnt necessarily a bad thing. The problem is then you need a detention policy (Gitmo), and a rendition policy to bring them back to the states. Many people didnt like either of those two policies any more than they like drones. So that would seemingly be off the table too.

With drones and snatch missions out then we're down to using local govt forces, but often those forces are unable to carry out the mission, like say Somalia, or they just dont care like Pakistan. Those both assume they are "friendly" governments. Otherwise you are then arming local militias and warlords to do the job, which has its own problems like who are we actually arming.

How about if they don't do it they are considered at war with the USA. Then we invade and do it the old fashioned way. We maybe need to consider making the war on terror a national issue.

America can conduct reviews on foreign nations and see if they are policing terror up to America's standard, and if they are deemed to be acceptable, well then we rely on them to detain and try terrorists. If they fail, then they are a terrorist nation and we treat them like Afghanistan.

This may sound rash but at the most we would only be invading 6-10 very weak nations. My guess is after the first 2, the rest will make sure their anti-terror policies meet our standards.

 

[chucky2]

Sorry,let me Clarify Rmoney lost the popular vote by 5 million...now if he won you Rightists would have claimed it was a CRUSHING victory.

Ausm

5 million votes is really nothing. Out of the voting population on average (obviously, in many instances, location is everythign), you're as likely to meet a Robama voter as an Obamney voter. You said 'vast majority' and that simply is not true from the voter perspective sense.

I will give The Left this: They through their media and dedicated followers have done a beyond masterful job of convincing the American voter that Bush and hence the Republicans are the root of every evil that has ever came into being. Car broke? It's that evil Bush! Bad tooth? Bush made you stress eat all that sugar because of the car that was broke from his personal sabotage! Yeast infection? If only Bush had passed Free Everything then you wouldn't have eaten all that sugar and could go get some "free" Monistat!

F'ing BOOOOOSSSHHHHH!!!!

Chuck

 

[benzylic]

How about if they don't do it they are considered at war with the USA. Then we invade and do it the old fashioned way. We maybe need to consider making the war on terror a national issue.

America can conduct reviews on foreign nations and see if they are policing terror up to America's standard, and if they are deemed to be acceptable, well then we rely on them to detain and try terrorists. If they fail, then they are a terrorist nation and we treat them like Afghanistan.

This may sound rash but at the most we would only be invading 6-10 very weak nations. My guess is after the first 2, the rest will make sure their anti-terror policies meet our standards.

Okay so we invade Yemen, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan maybe send a division to help the French in Mali, and topple those governments. What then? Are we going to stay for 10 years and rebuild their government? People dont like nation building either. Or we could leave and run the risk of extremists taking over, and just invade again?

Drones currently offer the best option to reliably hit at al Qaeda.

 

[monovillage]

Now now, you know that isn't true. Remember how you linked to a study on media bias that said there was no print media bias, along with a small, measurable, but probably insignificant tv bias?

How quickly faith overrides reason.

That's a lie, it stated there was "measurable" media bias.
and in reply to iluvshane. This is after the memo was leaked, not after the 2 or 3 years it's been SOP for Obama.

 

[chucky2]

If you stop frothing and read you will find the left is equally bothered by this.

To say The Left is equally bothered by this is to say the dad who looks over at his wife and says calmly but sternly 'Wow that was a bad call the ref just made.' is exactly the same when a less controversial call is made beforehand and the same dad runs out onto the field screaming, chasing the ref around, and trying to kill said ref. Then for good measure goes to every other game on the field and screams about the ref and disrupts those games as well. It's not that I don't believe some of you Lefties aren't upset at this, it's that your side has conclusively proved that as a side, you are total hypocrites. Which makes taking anything the Left side says seriously...very very hard.

Problem I have is the same problem I had with Bush. No checks and balances. There should be an indepandant review post killing. If time there should be something in place similar to the FISA court, which is why I had a bird when Bush ignored it.

You can thank Cheney/Bush(2001) the current President has this kind of power.

I don't have a problem with it but I have have a problem with it unchecked.

POST killing? Shoot first ask questions later? What the fuck!

I honestly do not know where to stand on this issue myself. On one hand, granting this power to the Executive is beyond worrisome. For the simple fact is the quality of Politician, and far worse, the quality of people they put in power and that choose to remain in power as DC bureaucrats, is so untrustable that trusting whoever comes along down the road with then an entrenched way of doing business is just...not a good idea.

On the other hand, if we're going to fight these POS groups (and, they are POS groups), adhering to the Constitution as it was written and intended really might not always be possible. I think a legit case can be made that the framers really could not possibly have imagined someone from one side of the globe texting another person in the US to 'have a good day at work!' which means for the person in the US to go take their moving van full of dirty material and drive it into the local aquifer, polluting the water for a city of millions. You have to wonder if the framers were starting out right now, not even bound by our world position or debt or military greatness, just with the current world knowledge of international travel and modern weaponry and technology, if they'd really have made the document they did and taken some of the positions they did.

As it stands now: I think this should never have made the light of day, it should have been referred back to a group of elected Politicians to come up with a policy that both had the oversight needed and was able to work at the speed needed in todays world. The reporting agency could have then been given a scoop or something on that story, rather than it being handled like this. National Security in my view shouldn't be compromised so a news outlet can make money.

Chuck

 

[fskimospy]

That's a lie, it stated there was "measurable" media bias.
and in reply to iluvshane. This is after the memo was leaked, not after the 2 or 3 years it's been SOP for Obama.

That is a lie by omission. My characterization is the correct one.

It is fun to watch you squirm while trying to decide whether you would rather cling to your delusions of media bias or try to score points on other people. It varies by the thread I guess, huh.

 

[momeNt]

This is actually starting to feel a lot like the aggression against the colonists by the Native Americans during the early years of colonization. We sullied their land with our presence, continued to remain there, and then our towns get terrorized. We seemed to handle that problem pretty well back then, so I think eradication is the most viable solution now. Plenty of non-combatants died during the days of native american aggression, and this will be no different. We just haven't accepted it yet.

 

[OrByte]

justice memo....horrible idea

reminds me of Alberto G. ew.

I find it hard to believe that the anwar incident that the rightists are frothy about is the first of its kind in all of american warfare history. It alarms me that there is an effort by our administration (if the OP is true) to come up with some legal standing AFTER THE FACT.

I guess I figured something like this (Anwar incident) has happened before and people should get in trouble for it and life moves on...

 

[thraashman]

To say The Left is equally bothered by this is to say the dad who looks over at his wife and says calmly but sternly 'Wow that was a bad call the ref just made.' is exactly the same when a less controversial call is made beforehand and the same dad runs out onto the field screaming, chasing the ref around, and trying to kill said ref.

Well, using this analogy. If you were at a game and sitting next to someone who was ranting and raving and pitching a fit at every call throughout the game as if it was the worst call in the history of sports. And that most of if not every single call he was raving about was a legitimate call and he's just acting like a new breed of retarded asshole that had previously been undiscovered. Then a bad call happens, one you recognize is bad, and you want to get mad, but the jackass next to you is jumping up and down already screaming like a retard whose been given too much sugar, you can't find it in yourself to show real emotion. You can't bring yourself to his level and you just express discontent because acting like that unabashed fucknut is just absurd.

Well, that's what liberals are like now. We've been seeing the conservative side pitch a childish retard fucknut fit at everything Obama has done, and be wrong 99% of the time about their rage. So now when there's actually something to be upset about, we're sitting down next to the raging asswipe because we can't associate ourselves with something so remarkably stupid.

 

[DAGTA]

Well if he's a resident of the United States you won't hear about him dying in a drone strike because law enforcement agencies in the US have jurisdiction to apprehend him. This drone strikes situation will only come up in places where we don't have law enforcement jurisdiction. That is the inherent problem here in fact. In a country where we don't have law enforcement powers and we can't trust the local governments to apprehend, we begin to run out of options.

So it's cool if China uses drones to kill people in the USA because they don't have law enforcement powers in the USA and can't trust the local gov't to apprehend those people?

 

[monovillage]

That is a lie by omission. My characterization is the correct one.

It is fun to watch you squirm while trying to decide whether you would rather cling to your delusions of media bias or try to score points on other people. It varies by the thread I guess, huh.

Even your own post admits it exists. You prove yourself a liar every time you deny it.

 

[chucky2]

Well, using this analogy. If you were at a game and sitting next to someone who was ranting and raving and pitching a fit at every call throughout the game as if it was the worst call in the history of sports. And that most of if not every single call he was raving about was a legitimate call and he's just acting like a new breed of retarded asshole that had previously been undiscovered. Then a bad call happens, one you recognize is bad, and you want to get mad, but the jackass next to you is jumping up and down already screaming like a retard whose been given too much sugar, you can't find it in yourself to show real emotion. You can't bring yourself to his level and you just express discontent because acting like that unabashed fucknut is just absurd.

Well, that's what liberals are like now. We've been seeing the conservative side pitch a childish retard fucknut fit at everything Obama has done, and be wrong 99% of the time about their rage. So now when there's actually something to be upset about, we're sitting down next to the raging asswipe because we can't associate ourselves with something so remarkably stupid.

That might be accurate if you'd kept the person about to throw an utterance the same as that same person who was throwing berzerk continual fits over what they suspected was illegitimate but either wasn't, or, was what needed to be done at the time with the knowledge and time constraints known.

So....no, that's not really what Libs are like now. Not at all.

 

[Incorruptible]

Well, using this analogy. If you were at a game and sitting next to someone who was ranting and raving and pitching a fit at every call throughout the game as if it was the worst call in the history of sports. And that most of if not every single call he was raving about was a legitimate call and he's just acting like a new breed of retarded asshole that had previously been undiscovered. Then a bad call happens, one you recognize is bad, and you want to get mad, but the jackass next to you is jumping up and down already screaming like a retard whose been given too much sugar, you can't find it in yourself to show real emotion. You can't bring yourself to his level and you just express discontent because acting like that unabashed fucknut is just absurd.

Well, that's what liberals are like now. We've been seeing the conservative side pitch a childish retard fucknut fit at everything Obama has done, and be wrong 99% of the time about their rage. So now when there's actually something to be upset about, we're sitting down next to the raging asswipe because we can't associate ourselves with something so remarkably stupid.

Wrong, When Conservatives attack obama its for good reason, this person has violated the Constitution and now with these drones BS he really proved how much of a POS he is

 

[thraashman]

So it's cool if China uses drones to kill people in the USA because they don't have law enforcement powers in the USA and can't trust the local gov't to apprehend those people?

First, you're misunderstanding me. I never supported these drone strikes. I simply pointed out why they are a more efficient and effective means for the government to use. Doesn't mean I think their use is right, but that I recognize the tough decision and limited options. Second, in many of these cases where we use drone strikes, we have the approval of the host country ... and in truth, even if we don't they don't have the power to do anything about it (again, not approval just recognizing the facts). China would never get permission from the US to do something like this, nor would the US get permission from China. And in addition, both have the power to do something about it if the other dared try to do this.

 

[thraashman]

Wrong, When Conservatives attack obama its for good reason, this person has violated the Constitution and now with these drones BS he really proved how much of a POS he is

Here's a perfect example of my analogy. Incorruptible here has raged about damn near every nonexistent and imaginary thing possible in regards to Obama. No one on this forum wants to be like him, so it's hard to possibly be on the same side as someone so unmatched in level of stupid and crazy. (I feel like I haven't used enough adjectives to express just how sociopathic he is, but then I would have to take up 10 pages of space for that)

 

[chucky2]

Here's a perfect example of my analogy. Incorruptible here has raged about damn near every nonexistent and imaginary thing possible in regards to Obama. No one on this forum wants to be like him, so it's hard to possibly be on the same side as someone so unmatched in level of stupid and crazy. (I feel like I haven't used enough adjectives to express just how sociopathic he is, but then I would have to take up 10 pages of space for that)

Hey, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying Righties who are going berzerk over this aren't at least being highly disengenuous if not hypocrital themselves. Many/Most are. If Bush somehow got a 3rd term and decided he needed to do this, you can bet the Righties would be saying 'Good job, kill'em all, whatever means necessary'.

That really doesn't excuse The Lefts near silence after Messiah was elected, given what Messiah has continued and even enhanced from where Bush left off.

Chuck

 

[Incorruptible]

Here's a perfect example of my analogy. Incorruptible here has raged about damn near every nonexistent and imaginary thing possible in regards to Obama. No one on this forum wants to be like him, so it's hard to possibly be on the same side as someone so unmatched in level of stupid and crazy. (I feel like I haven't used enough adjectives to express just how sociopathic he is, but then I would have to take up 10 pages of space for that)

obama has violated the Constitution so I take him to task whenever he does this, not my fault that he engages in this BS all the time

I attack bush as well so whats the problem? Not happy that I am not a partisan hack like you and the leftists?

I am not stupid and crazy, And what have I dome to suggest I am a sociopath?

 

[monovillage]

Hmm lets see:
Oh and let me just add some of the things codepink has been up to so you can shove that where the sun doesn't shine:

http://coolrevolution.net/2013/01/2...earing-demands-end-to-military-aid-to-israel/
http://bigstory.ap.org/photo/cia-protest
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Code-Pink-protests-drone-attacks-by-U-S-4028537.php
https://www.freespeech.org/video/holding-administration-accountable

http://bigstory.ap.org/photo/cia-protest
LOL, you are kidding aren't you?
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Code-Pink-protests-drone-attacks-by-U-S-4028537.php
All 3 of them? Is this a joke?
https://www.freespeech.org/video/holding-administration-accountable
Free speech.org? Really this is what you come up with to spew your indignation?

Sorry clownboy, but this doesn't come near to the level that was directed at President Bush and his administration I linked earlier in the thread. You're just lying to yourself and this forum if you think they approach the same level of publicity.

 

[ivwshane]

http://bigstory.ap.org/photo/cia-protest
LOL, you are kidding aren't you?
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Code-Pink-protests-drone-attacks-by-U-S-4028537.php
All 3 of them? Is this a joke?
https://www.freespeech.org/video/holding-administration-accountable
Free speech.org? Really this is what you come up with to spew your indignation?

Sorry clownboy, but this doesn't come near to the level that was directed at President Bush and his administration I linked earlier in the thread. You're just lying to yourself and this forum if you think they approach the same level of publicity.

God you are such a tool. I showed you counter examples of your links and your retort is what? You don't like the source that reported an actual event?


Once again you move the goal posts and you still come up short.

Keep trying idiot.

And the reason you think there isn't a similar outrage is because what Obama has done doesn't even compare to what bush did (and the precedents he set) but I'm sure that doesn't matter to you.



Lol I noticed you changed your avatar back, what a bitch. What's wrong? You can't handle being called out on it, you hack!