Just Watched 'Jesus Camp'

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: blackllotus
People who don't believe in evolution ARE whack jobs

:beer:

One would think... One should know a film called "Jesus Camp" ... Would be about hard core christains, and against the right wing... I haven't viewed the DVD. But I would probably find it entertaining at best...

I think more "REAL" Christians need to see it and speaking of "REAL" chraistains where the hell are they? I keep hearing about them but never seen one yet... Is that kind like those late night "REAL" girls videos I keep seeing on tv... Never seen any of those but I'd like too!

 

[Nebben]

Originally posted by: eits

i'm not saying the documentary wasn't educational to any degree... it absolutely was. however, i don't think they did a good enough job separating fanatic fundamentalists/evangelical pentacostals from real christians...

what do you think?

What is that difference, exactly?

(it would be wise to define what you mean by "real christians" if you're going to go ahead and insult a large number of people who give themselves the label)

Because to me, it seems the difference is that the fanatics/fundies cling to the entirety of the Bible, denying scientific fact and basic logic, while the "real Christians" just deny the really whacked-out stuff.

To be honest, I've always had MORE respect for fundies than the halfway-there Christians who just go to church now and then and don't have a clue about the OT (or much from the NT, for that matter). Why? Because although I think both categories are pretty much whacked, at least the average pentecostal/fundie/other variety of fanatic sticks with their story. They may have an entirely off-base world view, but they actually do all of the things they feel they should do.

People that adopt basic Christianity as a sort of insurance policy, just in case they're wrong and all of this really is true, are just as whacked as the fanatics.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
For all the liberal fear/hatred of Christians, I don?t see where the fire is.

Most liberals ARE Christians

Probably not his kind of Christians because they aren't useful when it comes time to get a Right Wing Whacko whom he supports elected.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
For all the liberal fear/hatred of Christians, I don?t see where the fire is.

Most liberals ARE Christians

Probably not his kind of Christians because they aren't useful when it comes time to get a Right Wing Whacko whom he supports elected.

A relatively common bumper sticker around here is PROUD MEMBER OF THE RELIGIOUS LEFT.

On this note that people who don't believe in evolution are "whack jobs," that is an extremely unscientific opinion. Scientific theories don't require that people believe in them, they just ARE. Science is not dependent on faith or popular opinion. Those sientific theories that prevail do so not because people believe in them, but because they are proven over time to be correct. If you're looking for "whack jobs," I suggest you look at people who insist that everyone else hold the same beliefs as they do.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: eits

i'm not saying the documentary wasn't educational to any degree... it absolutely was. however, i don't think they did a good enough job separating fanatic fundamentalists/evangelical pentacostals from real christians...

what do you think?

What is that difference, exactly?

(it would be wise to define what you mean by "real christians" if you're going to go ahead and insult a large number of people who give themselves the label)

Because to me, it seems the difference is that the fanatics/fundies cling to the entirety of the Bible, denying scientific fact and basic logic, while the "real Christians" just deny the really whacked-out stuff.

To be honest, I've always had MORE respect for fundies than the halfway-there Christians who just go to church now and then and don't have a clue about the OT (or much from the NT, for that matter). Why? Because although I think both categories are pretty much whacked, at least the average pentecostal/fundie/other variety of fanatic sticks with their story. They may have an entirely off-base world view, but they actually do all of the things they feel they should do.

People that adopt basic Christianity as a sort of insurance policy, just in case they're wrong and all of this really is true, are just as whacked as the fanatics.

You realize that the by-far-and-away largest Christian faith in the world teaches evolution in its many schools and universities, right? And that they accept it as fact at the highest levels, right? Yet I don't know of anyone who would call Catholics "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT."

You see, it's these kind of posts like yours that ruin religious discussions on the internet. You sound level-headed, but in fact you have no clue what you're talking about and are just pushing a black-and-white whacked world view of your own, i.e. a this-is-what-I-think-things-should-be-therefore-I-will-assume-they-are view. Bad news for you, they aren't.

 

[Nebben]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
For all the liberal fear/hatred of Christians, I don?t see where the fire is.

Most liberals ARE Christians

Probably not his kind of Christians because they aren't useful when it comes time to get a Right Wing Whacko whom he supports elected.

A relatively common bumper sticker around here is PROUD MEMBER OF THE RELIGIOUS LEFT.

On this note that people who don't believe in evolution are "whack jobs," that is an extremely unscientific opinion. Scientific theories don't require that people believe in them, they just ARE. Science is not dependent on faith or popular opinion. Those sientific theories that prevail do so not because people believe in them, but because they are proven over time to be correct. If you're looking for "whack jobs," I suggest you look at people who insist that everyone else hold the same beliefs as they do.

But see, that's just it... there ARE people out there who say that very thing. "I don't believe in evolution."

So, um, yeah. They're stating, often without any actual understanding of science or evolution, that they "Don't believe in evolution."

In other words, Joe Fundie is proudly proclaiming to the world: "I don't have a clue about the workings of the world, I have a minimal understanding of science, I've never read a legitimate book regarding evolutionary theory, but you know what? This guy on this website says the world is only several thousand years old, and Dinosaurs romped with us all the time -- we were good buddies! -- and that evolution is a lie. So I believe him!"

No, science doesn't have anything to do with the belief of the masses, I agree with you. But how are these people NOT whackjobs?

 

[Nebben]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: eits

i'm not saying the documentary wasn't educational to any degree... it absolutely was. however, i don't think they did a good enough job separating fanatic fundamentalists/evangelical pentacostals from real christians...

what do you think?

What is that difference, exactly?

(it would be wise to define what you mean by "real christians" if you're going to go ahead and insult a large number of people who give themselves the label)

Because to me, it seems the difference is that the fanatics/fundies cling to the entirety of the Bible, denying scientific fact and basic logic, while the "real Christians" just deny the really whacked-out stuff.

To be honest, I've always had MORE respect for fundies than the halfway-there Christians who just go to church now and then and don't have a clue about the OT (or much from the NT, for that matter). Why? Because although I think both categories are pretty much whacked, at least the average pentecostal/fundie/other variety of fanatic sticks with their story. They may have an entirely off-base world view, but they actually do all of the things they feel they should do.

People that adopt basic Christianity as a sort of insurance policy, just in case they're wrong and all of this really is true, are just as whacked as the fanatics.

You realize that the by-far-and-away largest Christian faith in the world teaches evolution in its many schools and universities, right? And that they accept it as fact at the highest levels, right? Yet I don't know of anyone who would call Catholics "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT."

You see, it's these kind of posts like yours that ruin religious discussions on the internet. You sound level-headed, but in fact you have no clue what you're talking about and are just pushing a black-and-white whacked world view of your own, i.e. a this-is-what-I-think-things-should-be-therefore-I-will-assume-they-are view. Bad news for you, they aren't.

I'm sorry, where did I say anything about the Catholic church?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
For all the liberal fear/hatred of Christians, I don?t see where the fire is.

Most liberals ARE Christians

Probably not his kind of Christians because they aren't useful when it comes time to get a Right Wing Whacko whom he supports elected.

A relatively common bumper sticker around here is PROUD MEMBER OF THE RELIGIOUS LEFT.

On this note that people who don't believe in evolution are "whack jobs," that is an extremely unscientific opinion. Scientific theories don't require that people believe in them, they just ARE. Science is not dependent on faith or popular opinion. Those sientific theories that prevail do so not because people believe in them, but because they are proven over time to be correct. If you're looking for "whack jobs," I suggest you look at people who insist that everyone else hold the same beliefs as they do.

But see, that's just it... there ARE people out there who say that very thing. "I don't believe in evolution."

So, um, yeah. They're stating, often without any actual understanding of science or evolution, that they "Don't believe in evolution."

In other words, Joe Fundie is proudly proclaiming to the world: "I don't have a clue about the workings of the world, I have a minimal understanding of science, I've never read a legitimate book regarding evolutionary theory, but you know what? This guy on this website says the world is only several thousand years old, and Dinosaurs romped with us all the time -- we were good buddies! -- and that evolution is a lie. So I believe him!"

No, science doesn't have anything to do with the belief of the masses, I agree with you. But how are these people NOT whackjobs?

On that same note, how are SETI not whack jobs? There's no scientific evidence whatsoever for the extistence of advanced alien species, yet they pretend to have scientific backing with a statement that is just as vague and scientifically meaningless as what the religious use to validate their belief in creationism, "the universe is so big and perfect and complex, it's just impossible that... "

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: eits

i'm not saying the documentary wasn't educational to any degree... it absolutely was. however, i don't think they did a good enough job separating fanatic fundamentalists/evangelical pentacostals from real christians...

what do you think?

What is that difference, exactly?

(it would be wise to define what you mean by "real christians" if you're going to go ahead and insult a large number of people who give themselves the label)

Because to me, it seems the difference is that the fanatics/fundies cling to the entirety of the Bible, denying scientific fact and basic logic, while the "real Christians" just deny the really whacked-out stuff.

To be honest, I've always had MORE respect for fundies than the halfway-there Christians who just go to church now and then and don't have a clue about the OT (or much from the NT, for that matter). Why? Because although I think both categories are pretty much whacked, at least the average pentecostal/fundie/other variety of fanatic sticks with their story. They may have an entirely off-base world view, but they actually do all of the things they feel they should do.

People that adopt basic Christianity as a sort of insurance policy, just in case they're wrong and all of this really is true, are just as whacked as the fanatics.

You realize that the by-far-and-away largest Christian faith in the world teaches evolution in its many schools and universities, right? And that they accept it as fact at the highest levels, right? Yet I don't know of anyone who would call Catholics "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT."

You see, it's these kind of posts like yours that ruin religious discussions on the internet. You sound level-headed, but in fact you have no clue what you're talking about and are just pushing a black-and-white whacked world view of your own, i.e. a this-is-what-I-think-things-should-be-therefore-I-will-assume-they-are view. Bad news for you, they aren't.

I'm sorry, where did I say anything about the Catholic church?

Catholics aren't Christians?

 

[Nebben]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: eits

i'm not saying the documentary wasn't educational to any degree... it absolutely was. however, i don't think they did a good enough job separating fanatic fundamentalists/evangelical pentacostals from real christians...

what do you think?

What is that difference, exactly?

(it would be wise to define what you mean by "real christians" if you're going to go ahead and insult a large number of people who give themselves the label)

Because to me, it seems the difference is that the fanatics/fundies cling to the entirety of the Bible, denying scientific fact and basic logic, while the "real Christians" just deny the really whacked-out stuff.

To be honest, I've always had MORE respect for fundies than the halfway-there Christians who just go to church now and then and don't have a clue about the OT (or much from the NT, for that matter). Why? Because although I think both categories are pretty much whacked, at least the average pentecostal/fundie/other variety of fanatic sticks with their story. They may have an entirely off-base world view, but they actually do all of the things they feel they should do.

People that adopt basic Christianity as a sort of insurance policy, just in case they're wrong and all of this really is true, are just as whacked as the fanatics.

You realize that the by-far-and-away largest Christian faith in the world teaches evolution in its many schools and universities, right? And that they accept it as fact at the highest levels, right? Yet I don't know of anyone who would call Catholics "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT."

You see, it's these kind of posts like yours that ruin religious discussions on the internet. You sound level-headed, but in fact you have no clue what you're talking about and are just pushing a black-and-white whacked world view of your own, i.e. a this-is-what-I-think-things-should-be-therefore-I-will-assume-they-are view. Bad news for you, they aren't.

I'm sorry, where did I say anything about the Catholic church?

Catholics aren't Christians?

... again, you put words into my mouth. Are you reading the same posts I'm typing, or is there some sort of Bizzaro Nebben out there?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: eits

i'm not saying the documentary wasn't educational to any degree... it absolutely was. however, i don't think they did a good enough job separating fanatic fundamentalists/evangelical pentacostals from real christians...

what do you think?

What is that difference, exactly?

(it would be wise to define what you mean by "real christians" if you're going to go ahead and insult a large number of people who give themselves the label)

Because to me, it seems the difference is that the fanatics/fundies cling to the entirety of the Bible, denying scientific fact and basic logic, while the "real Christians" just deny the really whacked-out stuff.

To be honest, I've always had MORE respect for fundies than the halfway-there Christians who just go to church now and then and don't have a clue about the OT (or much from the NT, for that matter). Why? Because although I think both categories are pretty much whacked, at least the average pentecostal/fundie/other variety of fanatic sticks with their story. They may have an entirely off-base world view, but they actually do all of the things they feel they should do.

People that adopt basic Christianity as a sort of insurance policy, just in case they're wrong and all of this really is true, are just as whacked as the fanatics.

You realize that the by-far-and-away largest Christian faith in the world teaches evolution in its many schools and universities, right? And that they accept it as fact at the highest levels, right? Yet I don't know of anyone who would call Catholics "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT."

You see, it's these kind of posts like yours that ruin religious discussions on the internet. You sound level-headed, but in fact you have no clue what you're talking about and are just pushing a black-and-white whacked world view of your own, i.e. a this-is-what-I-think-things-should-be-therefore-I-will-assume-they-are view. Bad news for you, they aren't.

I'm sorry, where did I say anything about the Catholic church?

Catholics aren't Christians?

... again, you put words into my mouth. Are you reading the same posts I'm typing, or is there some sort of Bizzaro Nebben out there?

I wouldn't quote your same post 3 times over if I was "putting words in your mouth."
If there is a misunderstanding, I think it was you who failed to understand the post from the OP that you were replying to. Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text. Yet you're trying to imply that the fundies are the "real Christians" and all the others are "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT." In other words, you're grossly misrepresenting the faith of 2 billion plus people just so you can box it into your black-and-white worldview.
I'm not a Christian myself (although I do like the teachings of Jesus, but then again who doesn't?), I just find your argument ridiculous. And ironically, it's exactly the argument the OP was complaining about and this is, as far as I am aware, the first time the OP and I have ever agreed on anything here.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: Vic
On this note that people who don't believe in evolution are "whack jobs," that is an extremely unscientific opinion. Scientific theories don't require that people believe in them, they just ARE. Science is not dependent on faith or popular opinion. Those sientific theories that prevail do so not because people believe in them, but because they are proven over time to be correct.

Are you trying to make a point? I don't see any logical connection between the first sentence and the rest of your statements.

Originally posted by: Vic
If you're looking for "whack jobs," I suggest you look at people who insist that everyone else hold the same beliefs as they do.

Calling someone a "whack job" is a far cry from trying to force them to follow a specific set of beliefs.

Originally posted by: Vic
On that same note, how are SETI not whack jobs? There's no scientific evidence whatsoever for the extistence of advanced alien species, yet they pretend to have scientific backing with a statement that is just as vague and scientifically meaningless as what the religious use to validate their belief in creationism, "the universe is so big and perfect and complex, it's just impossible that... "

FYI, here is their actual mission statement (as opposed to the horseshit one you just posted).

The mission of the SETI Institute is to explore, understand and explain the origin, nature and prevalence of life in the universe.

I don't see how you can claim that the SETI Project does not have "scientific backing". The results of their search will be scientifically significant regardless of whether they succeed or fail.

 

[Nebben]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: eits

i'm not saying the documentary wasn't educational to any degree... it absolutely was. however, i don't think they did a good enough job separating fanatic fundamentalists/evangelical pentacostals from real christians...

what do you think?

What is that difference, exactly?

(it would be wise to define what you mean by "real christians" if you're going to go ahead and insult a large number of people who give themselves the label)

Because to me, it seems the difference is that the fanatics/fundies cling to the entirety of the Bible, denying scientific fact and basic logic, while the "real Christians" just deny the really whacked-out stuff.

To be honest, I've always had MORE respect for fundies than the halfway-there Christians who just go to church now and then and don't have a clue about the OT (or much from the NT, for that matter). Why? Because although I think both categories are pretty much whacked, at least the average pentecostal/fundie/other variety of fanatic sticks with their story. They may have an entirely off-base world view, but they actually do all of the things they feel they should do.

People that adopt basic Christianity as a sort of insurance policy, just in case they're wrong and all of this really is true, are just as whacked as the fanatics.

You realize that the by-far-and-away largest Christian faith in the world teaches evolution in its many schools and universities, right? And that they accept it as fact at the highest levels, right? Yet I don't know of anyone who would call Catholics "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT."

You see, it's these kind of posts like yours that ruin religious discussions on the internet. You sound level-headed, but in fact you have no clue what you're talking about and are just pushing a black-and-white whacked world view of your own, i.e. a this-is-what-I-think-things-should-be-therefore-I-will-assume-they-are view. Bad news for you, they aren't.

I'm sorry, where did I say anything about the Catholic church?

Catholics aren't Christians?

... again, you put words into my mouth. Are you reading the same posts I'm typing, or is there some sort of Bizzaro Nebben out there?

I wouldn't quote your same post 3 times over if I was "putting words in your mouth."
If there is a misunderstanding, I think it was you who failed to understand the post from the OP that you were replying to. Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text. Yet you're trying to imply that the fundies are the "real Christians" and all the others are "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT." In other words, you're grossly misrepresenting the faith of 2 billion plus people just so you can box it into your black-and-white worldview.
I'm not a Christian myself (although I do like the teachings of Jesus, but then again who doesn't?), I just find your argument ridiculous. And ironically, it's exactly the argument the OP was complaining about and this is, as far as I am aware, the first time the OP and I have ever agreed on anything here.

You claim that I'm "trying to imply that fundies are the 'real Christians' and all the others are 'halfway there Christians'" really isn't accurate. I didn't mention any particular church. And, for the record, a Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. That's the working definition of the word. I really don't think Catholics are any more or less "Christian" than anyone else who at least agrees on the basic tenets of Christianity.

Halfway-there was meant to refer to people like my second cousin, who have never read a page of the Bible on their own, go to church on major holidays, don't seem to have any regard for living a life in accordance to what they claim to believe in, but then freak out and tell me I'm "messed up" because I'm an atheist.

My beef was with the idea that some Christians are "real Christians" and other ones are wrong. I disagree with them all, but I don't think this guy should be saying the pentecostal ones aren't "real".

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Vic
On this note that people who don't believe in evolution are "whack jobs," that is an extremely unscientific opinion. Scientific theories don't require that people believe in them, they just ARE. Science is not dependent on faith or popular opinion. Those sientific theories that prevail do so not because people believe in them, but because they are proven over time to be correct.

Are you trying to make a point? I don't see any logical connection between the first sentence and the rest of your statements.

Originally posted by: Vic
If you're looking for "whack jobs," I suggest you look at people who insist that everyone else hold the same beliefs as they do.

Calling someone a "whack job" is a far cry from trying to force them to follow a specific set of beliefs.

Originally posted by: Vic
On that same note, how are SETI not whack jobs? There's no scientific evidence whatsoever for the extistence of advanced alien species, yet they pretend to have scientific backing with a statement that is just as vague and scientifically meaningless as what the religious use to validate their belief in creationism, "the universe is so big and perfect and complex, it's just impossible that... "

FYI, here is their actual mission statement (as opposed to the horseshit one you just posted).

The mission of the SETI Institute is to explore, understand and explain the origin, nature and prevalence of life in the universe.

I don't see how you can claim that the SETI Project does not have "scientific backing". The results of their search will be scientifically significant regardless of whether they succeed or fail.

Calling someone a "whack job" is implying that societal shame should be brought upon them. When referring to their beliefs, that most certainly is an indirect way of trying to force people to believe a certain way. Science doesn't require your help in that fashion.

As to SETI, they really are "whack jobs." They're listening for the voice of God and trying to disguise that as science.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Nebben

Originally posted by: eits

i'm not saying the documentary wasn't educational to any degree... it absolutely was. however, i don't think they did a good enough job separating fanatic fundamentalists/evangelical pentacostals from real christians...

what do you think?

What is that difference, exactly?

(it would be wise to define what you mean by "real christians" if you're going to go ahead and insult a large number of people who give themselves the label)

Because to me, it seems the difference is that the fanatics/fundies cling to the entirety of the Bible, denying scientific fact and basic logic, while the "real Christians" just deny the really whacked-out stuff.

To be honest, I've always had MORE respect for fundies than the halfway-there Christians who just go to church now and then and don't have a clue about the OT (or much from the NT, for that matter). Why? Because although I think both categories are pretty much whacked, at least the average pentecostal/fundie/other variety of fanatic sticks with their story. They may have an entirely off-base world view, but they actually do all of the things they feel they should do.

People that adopt basic Christianity as a sort of insurance policy, just in case they're wrong and all of this really is true, are just as whacked as the fanatics.

You realize that the by-far-and-away largest Christian faith in the world teaches evolution in its many schools and universities, right? And that they accept it as fact at the highest levels, right? Yet I don't know of anyone who would call Catholics "halfway-there Christians" who "don't have a clue about the OT."

You see, it's these kind of posts like yours that ruin religious discussions on the internet. You sound level-headed, but in fact you have no clue what you're talking about and are just pushing a black-and-white whacked world view of your own, i.e. a this-is-what-I-think-things-should-be-therefore-I-will-assume-they-are view. Bad news for you, they aren't.

I'm sorry, where did I say anything about the Catholic church?

Catholics aren't Christians?

Hate to jump in here but as a former Catholic I can tell you that several sects of Christianity(Baptists in particular) hate Catholics. I have been called a whore of Babylon to my face by a Baptist minister.

 

[ayabe]

While I think SETI is a waste of money, it is a little naive of us to think that we are the only intelligent life in the universe given it's known size.

It's just that the distances between us and our next closest star are so large our chances of ever encountering anything like that is pretty much impossible, even if we were capable someday of traveling at the speed of light.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Nebben
You claim that I'm "trying to imply that fundies are the 'real Christians' and all the others are 'halfway there Christians'" really isn't accurate. I didn't mention any particular church. And, for the record, a Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. That's the working definition of the word. I really don't think Catholics are any more or less "Christian" than anyone else who at least agrees on the basic tenets of Christianity.

Halfway-there was meant to refer to people like my second cousin, who have never read a page of the Bible on their own, go to church on major holidays, don't seem to have any regard for living a life in accordance to what they claim to believe in, but then freak out and tell me I'm "messed up" because I'm an atheist.

My beef was with the idea that some Christians are "real Christians" and other ones are wrong. I disagree with them all, but I don't think this guy should be saying the pentecostal ones aren't "real".

Well, next time be more clear about what you mean, because that is not what you said. What you clearly said is that you have more respect for fundies who believe in creationism than for "half-way there Christians" who don't. You also clearly implied that not believing in creationism implied a lack of knowledge in the Bible, when that is not true at all. The Creation story in the Bible, when taken figuratively instead of literally (and I would argue that a true literal interpretation is a logical impossibility), is not at all at odds with the scientific theory of evolution.

Let's not go into atheism. That's just another faith like Christianity or any other religion. One can no more know that there is not a God than one can know that there is. First, you'd have to define what "God" really is, and good luck with that.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Hate to jump in here but as a former Catholic I can tell you that several sects of Christianity(Baptists in particular) hate Catholics. I have been called a whore of Babylon to my face by a Baptist minister.

Oh, I'm fully aware of this. I grew up in the Mormon church (which I left when I was 15), and the writings of Joseph Smith specifically refer to the Catholic church as "the mother of abominations." I kid you not.

(Looked it up) 1 Nephi 14:9: "And it came to pass that he (and angel) said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. "

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ayabe
Hate to jump in here but as a former Catholic I can tell you that several sects of Christianity(Baptists in particular) hate Catholics. I have been called a whore of Babylon to my face by a Baptist minister.

Oh, I'm fully aware of this. I grew up in the Mormon church (which I left when I was 15), and the writings of Joseph Smith specifically refer to the Catholic church as "the mother of abominations." I kid you not.

(Looked it up) 1 Nephi 14:9: "And it came to pass that he (and angel) said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. "

Heh, that's interesting I did not know that about Mormons. I dated a Mormon girl back in college and surprisingly she was quite a minx in the sack.

Back when I was in Catholic school, K-6th, whenever we played one of the Baptist schools in soccer or basketball they would always foul really hard and try to pick fights with us. I never understood why until much later.

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: Vic
On that same note, how are SETI not whack jobs? There's no scientific evidence whatsoever for the extistence of advanced alien species, yet they pretend to have scientific backing with a statement that is just as vague and scientifically meaningless as what the religious use to validate their belief in creationism, "the universe is so big and perfect and complex, it's just impossible that... "

Easy. Show me the proof that life doesn't exist in any other location in our galaxy, or that it never will be possible for life to arise in conditions other then here on Earth. You can't, because we don't know enough and don't have the technology to travel any further then our own moon. Until then, while it is a crude method, SETI has a purpose.

As to SETI, they really are "whack jobs." They're listening for the voice of God and trying to disguise that as science.

I would love to know where your deep insight into SETI came from.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ayabe
Hate to jump in here but as a former Catholic I can tell you that several sects of Christianity(Baptists in particular) hate Catholics. I have been called a whore of Babylon to my face by a Baptist minister.

Oh, I'm fully aware of this. I grew up in the Mormon church (which I left when I was 15), and the writings of Joseph Smith specifically refer to the Catholic church as "the mother of abominations." I kid you not.

(Looked it up) 1 Nephi 14:9: "And it came to pass that he (and angel) said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. "

Heh, that's interesting I did not know that about Mormons. I dated a Mormon girl back in college and surprisingly she was quite a minx in the sack.

Back when I was in Catholic school, K-6th, whenever we played one of the Baptist schools in soccer or basketball they would always foul really hard and try to pick fights with us. I never understood why until much later.

Oh, that's not surprising to me at all (that she was a minx in the sack). Mormon girls generally come in only 2 flavors: prudes or sluts. IMO it's all that sexual repression combined with otherwise an clean, healthy, positive, and (usually) affluent living.

A lot of the fundie groups, like many Baptists, seem to depend on the "I'm saved and you're a sinner" attitude for their own mental well-being. What you said reminded me of a paragraph or 2 from Heinlein's book "Stranger in a Strange Land," where the Fosterites' (who were an odd blend of fundamentalism, Mormonism, and scientology) sports team was going to be taking on "sinners," so they were advised to play especially rough and that medics would be standing by "in case of excessive zeal."

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: Vic
On that same note, how are SETI not whack jobs? There's no scientific evidence whatsoever for the extistence of advanced alien species, yet they pretend to have scientific backing with a statement that is just as vague and scientifically meaningless as what the religious use to validate their belief in creationism, "the universe is so big and perfect and complex, it's just impossible that... "

Easy. Show me the proof that life doesn't exist in any other location in our galaxy, or that it never will be possible for life to arise in conditions other then here on Earth. You can't, because we don't know enough and don't have the technology to travel any further then our own moon. Until then, while it is a crude method, SETI has a purpose.

As to SETI, they really are "whack jobs." They're listening for the voice of God and trying to disguise that as science.

I would love to know where your deep insight into SETI came from.

Huh? I have to show you proof of something that cannot be proven? Why don't you just ask me to show you proof that God doesn't exist? It would be the same thing.

My "deep insight" comes from the fact that most of the time people can't see beyond the imaginary labels they put on things. I find it fascinating how these labels give people the ability to think that 2 otherwise identical things are somehow different. For example, when SETI seeks to hear voices from beyond the stars, that's "science," but when religous people claim they hear God speaking to them from Heaven, that's "whack job"-ish.

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: Vic
Huh? I have to show you proof of something that cannot be proven?

Not having the ability to find that proof does not equal lack of or no proof at all. Mankind has only just stepped foot into space and begun it's exploration. We've only been able to explain the most fundamental of natural forces in the last several centuries. Life and how it started even on our own planet is still a bunch of theories. We do not currently have the means to prove or disprove that life exists outside the bounds of Earth. SETI is a crude method to attempt to find that proof.

Why don't you just ask me to show you proof that God doesn't exist? It would be the same thing.

No it isn't. God is beyond mortal comprehension. An omniscient, all-powerful, infallible being breaks every law that binds us in this universe. There is no way for the human mind to even begin to approach understanding something like that.

My "deep insight" comes from the fact that most of the time people can't see beyond the imaginary labels they put on things. I find it fascinating how these labels give people the ability to think that 2 otherwise identical things are somehow different. For example, when SETI seeks to hear voices from beyond the stars, that's "science," but when religous people claim they hear God speaking to them from Heaven, that's "whack job"-ish.

Thing is, they aren't identical. Considering that SETI not only listens, but has actually sent messages in the attempt to establish contact with extraterrestrials, should be enough to establish that. After all, those who are attempting to speak to God need only the inner peace of their mind, not super high-tech radio instruments.

Edit: This is one hell of a derailment, sorry OP.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: Vic
Huh? I have to show you proof of something that cannot be proven?

Not having the ability to find that proof does not equal lack of or no proof at all. Mankind has only just stepped foot into space and begun it's exploration. We've only been able to explain the most fundamental of natural forces in the last several centuries. Life and how it started even on our own planet is still a bunch of theories. We do not currently have the means to prove or disprove that life exists outside the bounds of Earth. SETI is a crude method to attempt to find that proof.

Why don't you just ask me to show you proof that God doesn't exist? It would be the same thing.

No it isn't. God is beyond mortal comprehension. An omniscient, all-powerful, infallible being breaks every law that binds us in this universe. There is no way for the human mind to even begin to approach understanding something like that.

My "deep insight" comes from the fact that most of the time people can't see beyond the imaginary labels they put on things. I find it fascinating how these labels give people the ability to think that 2 otherwise identical things are somehow different. For example, when SETI seeks to hear voices from beyond the stars, that's "science," but when religous people claim they hear God speaking to them from Heaven, that's "whack job"-ish.

Thing is, they aren't identical. Considering that SETI not only listens, but has actually sent messages in the attempt to establish contact with extraterrestrials, should be enough to establish that. After all, those who are attempting to speak to God need only the inner peace of their mind, not super high-tech radio instruments.

"Our Advanced Alien Species, who art in Deep Space, Hallowed be thy Very Large Array... "

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: Vic
"Our Advanced Alien Species, who art in Deep Space, Hallowed be thy Very Large Array... "

Do you really need to fall back on appealing to emotions through the invocation of a familiar phrase? Or do you have a real arguement somewhere that might support the tinfoil hat theory?