Just Watched 'Jesus Camp'

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Poulsonator

Originally posted by: Seekermeister
Poulsonator,

I look for God (or any god) all of the time.

This would be a good thing, except for the parenthetical portion of your sentence. Most people that look for God long enough will find one, but not necessarily the true God. Any other god is worse than none at all.

I haven't found this "true God" that you are so sure exists, either. I don't get how you can say "any other god is worse than none at all", when more people on this planet believe in a different god than you (I'm assuming you're a Christian). How are they worse off than you?

It's hard to "find" God if you're eyes are closed; He is present everywhere, but if you have hardened your heart to His Word or to the very possibility that He exists, you will not find Him. Those who truly seek God will be saved. But in order for your eyes to be opened, you must be willing to admit to yourself that you are a sinner and that you do need salvation. This is the one big obstacle that prevents people most people from knowing God, because the nature of fallen man is to be prideful and self-serving. People say to themselves (and I hear this all the time), "I'm a pretty good person", or "I may not be a saint, but I'm not evil like so-and-so". The truth is that we are ALL sinners, and there is not one person, no, not even one, who is without sin.

Telling yourself that you are better than others, or that you are "relatively" good, is nothing but pride; you are unable to be saved if you cannot acknowledge before yourself and God the reality that you are a sinner. Denial of this fact leads only to hypocrisy and eventual destruction, which is why pride is considered to be the deadliest sin. We humans thinking that we "deserve" anything but death, or thinking that we are better than we really are, has lead to nothing but pain and destruction since Adam and Eve - who were tempted by the offer of being "like God" (that was the first instance of human pride) - ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So admit that you are a sinner to God, and then admit that you do need salvation- because if you are a sinner, all you deserve is death. And the only cure to the problem of sin, and the only thing that can rescue us from eternal death and sorrow, is the gift of salvation that God Himself provided. Man cannot save himself! How could he? A man trying to save himself from sin is like a blind man trying to lead another blind man; they will both fall into a pit. That is the foolishness and hypocrisy of EVERY single religion and philosophy on the planet. Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Animism, Catholicism... the list goes on, and on, including religions that haven't even been practiced in thousands of years.

But the Word of God, inspired and preserved by the Holy Spirit, and physically written down by men of His choosing and predestination, says that there is only one way to salvation, and that is by Jesus, the Christ. Jesus was the living Word and Power of God who existed before the world was even created, who always existed, but came down in human flesh (as prophesied since the days of Adam and the Old Testament prophets) and became a man in order to die and serve as the one true and final sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. It is the love and grace of God that saves, and not any work, deed, or action that you could possibly do. One of the most well-known verses (John 3:16) and the following verses of the Bible describes what God did for you, because of His love for you:
_________
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.? - John 3:16-21
_________
God loves you so greatly that He would send His son, a part of who He is, to die for you. He did this not because you deserve salvation, or because you are great; He did this because He loves you in a way beyond human comprehension, and so that by extending grace to you, He will be glorified. Salvation is a gift from God, and one that is free for the asking - all you need to do is accept it and you will be saved.

Put aside any preconceptions about who you think God is from your own imagination and from what others have said, and read what the Word of God says for itself; it is His Word and perfect guide for all those who who will have Him as King and Lord, and its truth is absolute, incomprehensibly amazing, and eternal. May God bless you, and may His name be glorified.

 

[Seekermeister]

Poulsonator,

Disregarding your sarcasm and disrespect, I will say it doesn't require any divine power to perceive your mindset. That is obvious to anyone, without any revelation required. A person is what they think and believe, and their words are a reflection of this. If you want any assistance from anyone along these lines, you must reaccess your tact, because no Christian is going to attempt to help, when that help is going to be trodden over. When I said that you don't have the ear to hear, that is not a statement about your intelligence, or even your merit, because in that, I agree that I do not know you.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Poulsonator

Originally posted by: Seekermeister
Poulsonator,

I'm not telling you to believe anything. That would be quite futile, because it is obvious that you have already decided what you will believe. Taken individually, there are answers to most of your "questions", but it would require an ear to hear...which you do not have.

Please tell me, divine interpreter, what you did do to get your God ears?

Like the typical religious person, you danced around my questions. But if God can't answer them, why should I expect a mere mortal like yourself to be able to answer them?

As far as your last sentence, blow me. You don't know me and you don't know about my ears. Although you're quick to pass judgment like the typical, hypocritical Christian. Maybe my beliefs would change if I didn't get the same bullsh1t, stock response. I'm always up for discussion and am always looking for answers. Like science, I can change based on evidence. Unfortunately, the only thing religion has been able to say is the typical "there are answers, but you can't hear them". It's funny how NO ONE has the answers, yet every religious person says they exist. Faith! Not common sense, but faith!

You must recognize Seekermeister by now, the abused child luring other children into the clutches of his abuser. By making you believe, he can ignore his own gullibility. Or justify it. Been a long time since I've read my psychology books.

 

[Seekermeister]

WHAMPOM,

You must recognize Seekermeister by now, the abused child luring other children into the clutches of his abuser. By making you believe, he can ignore his own gullibility. Or justify it. Been a long time since I've read my psychology books.

I didn't know that you considered either yourself or anyone else here to be so weak as to be "forced" into anything by simply listening to what another person says. The main person that has abused me, is me...not unlike some others here. But then, since you have read some psychology books, I'm sure that you don't need any explanations.

 

[Poulsonator]

Seeker, no one even attempts to answer my questions, so what's the difference? All any Christian does is say "I don't know why God does what he does" or "it's in the Bible". If I ask God these things, you know what the response is?

"...."

So please, enlighten me.

Cronos, I appreciate the effort you put into your post. But the old "it's my way or the highway" mindset is extremely upsetting. There is nothing more closed-minded on this planet than that mentality. As an agnostic, I'm willing to learn about every other religion, to delve into those cultures, all the while contemplating the existence of a supreme being. I can't say for certain that one doesn't exist, just like I can't say for certain that one does. I tend to think that there isn't one, but that's why I'm always looking for answers, and I'm always willing to discuss with anyone.

As for looking at the Bible for answers, this is something that's really bothered me:

Does God Get Angry?

"As to Anger and Vengeance, I have a dilemma. I truly cannot see how He could have ever have been surprised or disappointed with any of us, since He Knows the future. So, even if He is capable of Anger or willing to do Vengeance, I cannot imagine any situation when such needs would arise. Of course, the Old Testament in my Bible clearly tells me of many examples of His Anger and His Vengeance. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to see how all this could be true! But I pretty much choose to downplay (and almost ignore) those Old Testament references to His Emotional reactions, because the God I Respect and Revere and Worship wouldn't have seemingly irrational emotional reactions."


Wow. And I know many others that think this way. "I know it clearly says these things, but I choose to ignore them to help me with my agenda". This type of thinking is not only typical, but also very dangerous.

 

[Seekermeister]

Poulsonator,

First, it must be recognized and understood, that no Christian has all of the answers, nor does the Bible contain all answers. The only "person" that does have all of the answers is God. That doesn't mean that the answer to a question isn't available, only that you have to go to the source for it. All that any mere Christian can do is sometimes to be able to convey an answer that he has obtained, or to attempt to guide another in this direction. As long as you insist on having answers to ALL of your questions, before accepting God, you shall never do so. Faith is not simply a course in school, in which you learn a sufficient amount to pass the test.

This is why that you shall not find a Christian that will have all of your answers. You seem to feel that it is knowledge that leads to faith, and while this is partlally true, it is more that faith leads to knowledge. With some questions, you might not like the answers, but they remain all the same.

I have not gone back over your posts for specifics, but I don't recall questions, so much as I do your statements. I would never attempt to answer all questions, but if you have anything specific, I will try.

As for the one about God's anger, the answer is yes, God does get angry, but not with a type of anger that you would understand. Not because of your intelligence, but because you are human. However, that anger has given way to forgiveness, particularly since the crucifixation and resurrection of Jesus. That is why this is called the Age of Grace. If God can forgive you, why can't you forgive God, and accept His love and be reconciled?

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Poulsonator
Seeker, no one even attempts to answer my questions, so what's the difference? All any Christian does is say "I don't know why God does what he does" or "it's in the Bible". If I ask God these things, you know what the response is?

"...."

So please, enlighten me.

I'll answer your questions in this post as fully as possible, drawing from what the Bible says, because my own opinions don't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by: Poulsonator
Cronos, I appreciate the effort you put into your post. But the old "it's my way or the highway" mindset is extremely upsetting. There is nothing more closed-minded on this planet than that mentality.

If you think about it honestly and with diligence, there really can only be one way. It's not because it's "my" way, though, it's because it is the truth, and it's God's way of salvation. Moral and religious relativism does not make any sense, and in fact opens the flood gates for every imaginable thing, regardless of whether it is true or good. I could say "god is a little kid in China", or "we are all gods", or "donald trump is really a cybernetic monkey", or "there is no God, and there is no purpose to life... so go kill yourself, now!", but not one of those statements is true. I do not preach the gospel simply because I think it is true, but I know it is, without any doubt. It is hard to explain the sense of conviction in my heart in words alone, because words cannot convey truth as the spirit can, but if you ever do become saved, you will know what I am talking about.

Thomas, one of the twelve discples of Jesus, who always had questions and was the one who wanted to touch Jesus' side for proof He was real after He was resurrected, said to Him, ?Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way??. And Jesus said to him, ?I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Salvation can only come through Christ, and only to those who God has predestined for salvation. Jesus also said, "?Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." So if that sounds exclusivistic to you, it's because it is; there is only one right way, and it by salvation in Christ. To use a metaphor (not a particularly good one, sorry ), life is like a mutiple choice question with hundreds of answers, and while many of them may seem right, only one answer is the correct one. There is no "partial credit" for picking the wrong one, and you can't make an excuse that you did not know which one was right, because the teacher gave you the study guide with correct answer in it.

Originally posted by: Poulsonator
As for looking at the Bible for answers, this is something that's really bothered me:

Does God Get Angry?

"As to Anger and Vengeance, I have a dilemma. I truly cannot see how He could have ever have been surprised or disappointed with any of us, since He Knows the future. So, even if He is capable of Anger or willing to do Vengeance, I cannot imagine any situation when such needs would arise. Of course, the Old Testament in my Bible clearly tells me of many examples of His Anger and His Vengeance. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to see how all this could be true! But I pretty much choose to downplay (and almost ignore) those Old Testament references to His Emotional reactions, because the God I Respect and Revere and Worship wouldn't have seemingly irrational emotional reactions."

God is never surprised, and nowhere in the Bible does it says He ever was surprised. But that doesn't mean that when we do what is wrong, continually and in rebellion to His commandments, that he is not right to be angry. There is a difference between the righteous anger and vengeance of God, and the uncontrolled and hate-filled anger of man. God became angry many times at Israel when they sinned and worshipped idols, often for hundreds of years at a time. He was patient with them, but there comes a point when a father has to punish His children if they continue to disobey him; God, as the heavenly Father, has every right to become angry with us. In the Old Testament, God expressed His anger more frequently because the priority of His plan in that time was to preserve the nation of Israel, His "firstborn" children, so that the Messiah might eventually come through them, and the promises which He made with Abraham and earlier with Adam and Eve might be fulfilled. God often dealt very harshly with sin in the OT in the lives of individuals, and in the nations, so that it might be an example to us living in the age of grace just how serious the problem of sin is to God, and just how important the righteousness of God (not man) is.

Righteous anger at sin is not an "irrational" emotion, but one that is controlled. I, for example, cannot help but be angry when I hear (for example) the atrocities committed upon the people of Darfur, or whenever I hear on the news that another child is the victim of abuse. I don't go out an exact vigilante justice on the people committing those sins ("vengeance is mine", says the Lord), but instead I subject my anger to control, and instead try and figure out ways that I can help stop such things, if possible.

 

[M00T]

I want to believe.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: M00T
I want to believe.

touché

 

[SuperFungus]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: SuperFungus

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That would be all fine and well if you could actually point to any evidence that God exists. Surely, given your statement above, you should be able to provide some solid evidence that everyone in this discussion can then examine.

I won't hold my breath.

As others have pointed out not all evidence can be replicated in a petri dish or examined under a microscope. You seem to have found evidence that leads you to conclude that God does not exist or, at the very least, that God's existence is unprovable. For myself, I have found evidence of God's existence in every aspect of our lives, from the complexity of our nature to man's need for purpose and meaning in life (I'll bet that even those who claim that need for meaning is a crutch, deep down, have the same need themselves).

You give the impression that you have accumulated so much evidence that God does not exist that there is really no question in the debate and that there is no way anyone will be able to give you the evidence you ask for. I feel the same way about the amount of evidence proving God's existence.

I won't begrudge you your free agency and your right to make whatever decision you choose based off the evidence you have, even though I don't see it. Maybe you should do the same for others.

Thanks, someone gets what I was tripping over myself trying to say. My goal was to defend everyone?s right to have their beliefs treated with the dignity they deserve, one I didn't accomplish very well apparently. I can't prove one way or another on the God issue any more than anyone else, and I don't even care to try. This is something of an impossible question, so all that really offends me when discussing it is people trying to tell one another that they know better than anyone else whether God exists or not. We're all in the dark here.

Jesus tapdancing Christ, you both are about as obtuse as Seekermeister is.

1.) Elfear: If you actually read and comprehended what I've said, you'd realize that NOWHERE did I state that God didn't exist. It's like talking to a fscking wall trying to get through to you. Now stop misrepresenting my words and listen up for once in your life: We do not have sufficient evidence to prove God's existence one way or another. The "evidence" you offer up is not evidence at all -- it's merely your personal annecdote.

2.) SuperFungus: No one has taken your dignity away ... are you really that thin-skinned? All I asked for was EVIDENCE that God existed. So far, all I've seen out of you is the same sort of anecdotal religious experience that means nothing in the context of proving God exists.

When you say we're all in the dark here - you don't know how right you are.

If you agree we're all in the dark, how can you continue to claim that your beliefs are the only intellectually honest ones? If i told you that inuits constituted the only 'intellectualy honest' race wouldn't that offend the dignity of everyone else?

"All i've seen out of you is the same sort of anecdotal religious expereince that means nothing in the context of proving God exists."
Do you mean like using evolution or the fossil record as evidence that God doesn't exist? None of these things need to be false for God to be true as I see it. Like someone said, we disagree about what counts as evidence here. Sure, my expereinces are personal, as is my faith. As i've said I can't (and I'm not trying to) prove God exists, simply that my beliefs, whatever they are, are in no way less valid than your own and that your assertions to the contrary are offensive.

 

[SuperFungus]

I always did think that evolution is a little weak on the Macro scale, because in order for a sexually reproducing organism to produce a viable species it needs partners with the same number of chromosomes. Evolution doesn't really explain the current chromosome count diversity very well as I understand it. Can anyone explain or clarify this point?