Union causes labor costs to increase => to counter increase in labor costs, decrease costs of parts => quality degrades => crappy cars don't sell = loss of marketshare.
in the end, it's the union's fault.
Union causes labor costs to increase => to counter increase in labor costs, decrease costs of parts => quality degrades => crappy cars don't sell = loss of marketshare.
in the end, it's the union's fault.
I wanted to say, I also agree with this.
Some people think that hybrids will actually save them money. That they should trade in their current (paid for and perfectly fine) car, for a new Prius, and they'll actually somehow pay for it with gas savings.
But not everybody is like that.
Some people just want to lower their personal oil consumption, even if it costs them more in the long run.
Some people want to benefit the environment.
Some people (my wife included in this one) just like the Prius because of what it is. They just like the car. (We have no intention of buying one though.)
Why people buy hybrids isn't as important as the support of hybrids. If people want them, they'll keep coming out and they should improve over time. Maybe 10 years from now we'll have a generation of hybrids coming out that have advanced enough that they easily average 90 - 100mpg, and they run on E100. But if we collectively dismissed hybrids just because they wont recoup the initial investment in gas savings, we wont ever really know what they'll be capable of when the technology really starts to mature.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Doublethink FTL!
The US automakers not making "good $ in the meantime," they're bleeding red ink like crazy. Nor are they thinking short-term. Their problem is that they're bureaucratic and conservative and they don't progress and change with the market. They stick with what worked in the past even when what worked in the past doesn't work anymore.
And "Euro quality" cars? Do you actually believe the sh!t you post? European cars are the least reliable cars in the industry, proven fact.
JulesMaximus
No Lifer
- Jul 3, 2003
- 74,584
- 984
- 126
Exactly. It never fails to amaze me when I see people promoting the waste of our natural resources. God forbid we think of the future of our planet. Typical self absorbed douchebags thinking only of themselves.
Dumbasses unite!!!
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,402
- 8,574
- 126
because buying a NEW car with a trunk full of batteries is such a great use of resources :roll:
they've moved the energy costs from the pump to the production line, and in doing so increased the total energy use the vehicle will see over its lifetime (from initial construction through driving and eventual disposal) and everyone jumps on it as the green alternative. what a crock of sh!t.
Squisher
Lifer
- Aug 17, 2000
- 21,204
- 66
- 91
That's right the domestic automakers should be so forward thinking that they conclude that customers won't make decisions taking into account the the economics of the situation. They should assume their customers are a bunch of altruistic tree huggers and produce a product that is not economically viable.
Then we can point our fingers at them for losing money even faster than they are now.
apoppin
Lifer
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
as you know.. for many on AT, a car that can have some fun (and has soul) counts for something, not just straight MPG
your argument is FLAWED . . . SUVs are still the most popular vehicle . . . no fun . . . no soul
i think you missed th epart where it says 'FOR MANY ON AT'
this is a place that, according to polls i've taken, has a much higher rate of manual transmission ownership than the general populace.
i'd also be that AT has much higher sports/fun car ownership rate than the general populace.
so, the only thing flawed here is your reading comprehension.
in your mind only
the SUV rates pretty highly here --at AT . . . or did until a just few months ago . . .
and you have to believe 'claims' and your flawed polls to make any generalizations about car ownership trends of the 150,000 users registered here
:thumbsdown:
AbAbber2k
Diamond Member
- Mar 1, 2005
- 6,474
- 1
- 0
Exactly. People rip on hybrids for a variety of reasons. And yes, there is at least some merit to those arguments. But the simple fact is, buying gas-guzzling V12s doesn't promote progress like buying hybrid/alternative fuel vehicles does. If there was greater demand for such vehicles, production would increase, prices would come down, and advances in technology would roll over more quickly. That said, I'm not going to preach to people about what they should trive. Hell, my next car might be a small/mid size non-hybrid truck. Why? Because at this point I need something with some power that can move more stuff than my little hyundai hatchback.
Yeah only US car makers are trying to make money, and only the US makers has that as their main goal. Get over yourself.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
ugh, cept the people making these arguements tend to be the ones that turn around and go buy an suv or some muscle car
making sense in terms of money? and consider that its not really a good arguement anyways, the people buying these vehicles wouldn't have bought a civic at all unless it was hybrid, they would have bought something bigger and atleast as expensive...why? because they can afford it. most people don't drive civics. if it were about saving money alone everyone would just buy a buncha geo metros or the current equivalent.
PricklyPete
Lifer
- Sep 17, 2002
- 14,582
- 162
- 106
Um why the F00k would i want one of these POS...
Im american and want horsepower not some little toy car..
If I wanted good gas mileage I'd go back to riding my motorcycle..
turn in you and your friends man cards and go be metro...
at least here in Texas you still see 6/10 vehicles is a V8 pickup truck or SUV or American Sportscar... (mostly trucks though) the other 4 cars per 10 are still gas guzzling BMWs or Mercedes.
thank heavens for red blooded americans..
instead of pansey ass treehugging hippies in thier toy cars.
Ryan
Lifer
- Oct 31, 2000
- 27,519
- 2
- 81
This may be a hard concept for you to grasp - but the hybrid Civic is no comparison to the BASE MODEL civic. The Civic Hybrid is only available with an Automatic, and it's equipped like the Civic EX Automatic - which has a base price of $19,510.00. There's a $2,640 difference between the two models. Factor in the Tax Credit the government offers Hybrid owners, and the difference is NON EXISTANT.
That sound you hear is the sound of your weak argument deflating from it's own weight.
reminds me of Nip tuck the other night... shawn rolls into the parking garage with his shiny new Prius with a baby seat... and is feelign pretty good about himself...
in comes a brand new bright orange lambo convertable with Christian in it... you see Shawn look back at his can and sigh...
Wow factor my butt... even a 2006 GT stang rolls up next to you people are gonna look at the stang and ignore the Prius...
AbAbber2k
Diamond Member
- Mar 1, 2005
- 6,474
- 1
- 0
:laugh:xInfinity
Sad that you're actually serious. I know plenty of Texans who drive imports like fvckin Miatas and whatnot, and they'd lay your ass on the pavement for questioning their masculinity. Guys that live and breath Texas and don't need some jacked up rig because they're compensating for their tiny in-bred peckers. I guess that's the difference between educated red-blooded americans and dipsh1t white trash.
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
- 76
Never thought I'd find myself giving a reading comprehension lesson to an American. WTF?
I'll put in in other words for you and Vic: There's a profound difference between making money as a side result of having vision, good engineering, efficient production and good products (i.e. Toyota, Porsche, Renault-Nissan), and making money by focusing on an unexplained trend for commercial vehicles (= cheap) in disguise. If not for the F150 and the Explorer, Ford would have been in deep sh!t 10 years ago.
That's why, if not for the hard lesson they are taking from the Japanese and European companies, they would have continued to spew out the same crap in 20 years, such as La Sabres, trucks and rolling over SUVs.
Do you understand it now? And you, Vic?
SearchMaster
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2002
- 7,791
- 114
- 106
I just took a trip in my brother-in-law's Prius over the weekend. I've always considered it a "Corolla with batteries" but I was pretty impressed with the car overall. It's fairly roomy (a bit narrow but long enough for good legroom) and holds a bunch of stuff in the hatch - 2 golf bags, 3 travel bags, and a couple of mini-keg canisters . He bought the vehicle mostly as an environmental thing, he's not a hippy and not particularly liberal. The car has fantastic technology, good nav system, nice stereo system (though lacking bass), and got about 45 mpg at a solid 85-90 mph, certainly not its ideal speed. Toyota created a niche here and should be applauded for it. I wouldn't pay $30K for it, but if I could get one around 24-25K I would consider it as my next vehicle.
It will NOT pay for itself with gas savings, but to compare it to a Corolla in overall cost is invalid as it really is much nicer than a Corolla. It's more like a higher end Camry that sacrifices horsepower for mileage. What's wrong with that as a choice????
. He bought the vehicle mostly as an environmental thing, he's not a hippy and not particularly liberal. The car has fantastic technology, good nav system, nice stereo system (though lacking bass), and got about 45 mpg at a solid 85-90 mph, certainly not its ideal speed. Toyota created a niche here and should be applauded for it. I wouldn't pay $30K for it, but if I could get one around 24-25K I would consider it as my next vehicle.It will NOT pay for itself with gas savings, but to compare it to a Corolla in overall cost is invalid as it really is much nicer than a Corolla. It's more like a higher end Camry that sacrifices horsepower for mileage. What's wrong with that as a choice????
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Yes, you're a double-thinking fanboi with zero understanding of business and economics. I get it.
"Unexplained trend in commercial vehicles"???
Are you saying that businesses don't or shouldn't vehicles? Or that that isn't a viable market? :roll:Now, let me help you understand. Competition always fosters innovation. No competition, no innovation. So your "hard lesson" bullsh!t is just that. Some competitors fail to innovate as fast as others, and they pay the price for that, as Ford and GM are doing. Greed has nothing to do with it, quite the opposite.
interesting that most of the legacy benifits are going to white collar workers, not the union employees.
From a WSJ piece, the union related legacy costs are only 2/3 of what the management legacy costs are.
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