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Just want to cry

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AMCRambler

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2001
7,715
31
91
Honestly, I think Japan is making a mistake going for the hybrid idea. I think GM has it figured out. Ethanol. If you read the news or watch any tv you've seen commercials for GM pushing their vehicles that will run on E85. This makes more sense to me. No dependence on foreign oil. Sure a hybrid is going to use less gas, but it still runs on gas. When the price goes up even higher, then your hybrid wont be helping any more. Granted E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, but it's only a matter of time before they come up with a substitute additive to replace the petroleum in it. If I remember correctly, the only reason the gasoline is in there so that that the alcohol is un-drinkable. Once the US government realizes this and removes the tarriff on Brazilian ethanol, that is when you'll see a huge shift in the auto industry in the US. Hybrids will be outmoded.
 

newParadigm

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2003
3,667
1
0
Originally posted by: Sphexi
I fail to see how $22k is expensive for a hybrid, considering they used to run way more than that. Lots of new cars with good gas mileage run $20k+, the ones at $14k tend to really skimp on power and features.

Plus, most people who'd go for the "money saving" aspect would probably drive it well past 100k miles, I don't think I've ever had a car that didn't make it to that point at least.

The Prius only has 110hp, I call that skimping on power.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
What's REALLY plaguing the US automakers.

Costly parts only add to Big 3's losses

Automakers - A study says common components give Japanese companies the edge
Tuesday, October 03, 2006
TOM KRISHER
TROY, Mich. -- One of Detroit's automakers is about to come out with a new model that has 81 side-view mirror options.

A comparable model built by Honda Motor Co. has only two.

According to a new study of the domestic auto industry's woes, the mirrors are one costly example of why Detroit-based carmakers made an average of $2,400 less per vehicle last year than their Japanese competitors.

The study, released Monday by the Royal Oak-based Harbour-Felax Group, also blames high labor costs, huge employee- and retiree-benefit expenses, bad pricing strategies and the low value of the yen to the dollar as factors that make the Big Three's vehicles more expensive to produce than those made by Japanese competitors.

The domestic automakers are at a point where they must quickly reduce their labor and manufacturing costs or they may not be in business over the long term, company President Laurie Harbour-Felax said.

"If they don't do this, they have their own problems to deal with in terms of long-term viability," she said.

The key to making more money is using common components and car underpinnings on multiple models, similar to what Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. are doing, said Jim Harbour, founder of the consulting company known for its annual report that tracks auto-plant productivity.

By using common platforms, body architectures and components, Toyota has saved about $1,000 per vehicle over the past five years, the report said. In addition, when fewer unique parts are needed for each vehicle, quality improves, reducing warranty costs, it said.

Domestic manufacturers have yet to fully grasp the savings from such commonality, the report said. One manufacturer has 41 seat frames, compared with five for the most streamlined carmaker, Laurie Harbour-Felax said. Another U.S.-based automaker has 100 catalytic converters in its exhaust systems; the most efficient company has five.

The 81 mirrors vary by color, whether they fold or not and whether they are heated, driving up the manufacturer's costs tremendously, Laurie Harbour-Felax said.

"Think about 81 mirrors," she said. "I've got to have more designers to design them. I have to have more product engineers to package them. I have to have more purchasing people."

The domestic manufacturer, whom Laurie Harbour-Felax would not identify, has five people who buy mirrors, while Honda has one, and that person also buys five other commodities, she said.

Cutting white-collar staffs, she said, won't fix the problem because the 81 mirrors still exist.

Profit gap


Another major contributor to the profitability gap is revenue per vehicle. On average, domestic automakers take in $21,597, 11 percent less than the average revenue of Japanese automakers, which collect $24,289 per vehicle, the report said. The authors attributed that disparity to steep discounts that domestic manufacturers use to fuel sales, as well as discounts for rental and other fleet sales, which average 25 percent of total domestic sales.

The study also pointed to labor issues as a major factor in the profit gap, including generous health care benefits and contracts that allow workers to continue collecting wages when there is no work for them.

The Big Three are making progress in common components, and they must address the labor and health care cost issues in 2007 negotiations with the United Auto Workers, said Laurie Harbour-Felax, who is Jim Harbour's daughter.

"I personally don't think one of them is going to go away," she said.

The domestic company closest to manufacturing like the Japanese is General Motors Corp., followed by DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group, then Ford Motor Co., Harbour said.

Based on 2005 numbers, GM lost $1,271 per vehicle in North America, while DaimlerChrysler made $144 and Ford lost $451, according to the report. Nissan made $2,135, while Toyota made $1,715 and Honda made $1,259. The figures exclude special write-offs made by the companies during the year that would reduce their earnings.

The domestics lose $590 to $630 in profit per vehicle because of labor issues including health care, absenteeism and inefficient work rules, Harbour said. They lose $490 to $705 per car because of retiree health care costs and $250 to $940 because of discounted pricing. Interest and other costs amount to $200 to $580 per vehicle, and capacity problems such as paying workers while plants are idle amount to $50 to $350, the study said.


Working for change


Ford spokeswoman Anne Marie Gattari said she had not seen the report and couldn't comment other than to say that Ford is working to improve.

"Rest assured that Ford is making progress transforming its plants and processes into leaner, more efficient and competitive operations," she said.

GM has made progress but still faces challenges that it needs to address for long-term profitability and growth, said spokesman Dan Flores. For example, the company has reduced the number of sun visors in its models from 32 to 18 as it increases the number of common parts, he said.

Chrysler said in a statement that it is not satisfied with the profitability gap per vehicle between North American automakers and the Japanese and the Harbour-Felax report is one of many measures it looks at to help improve operations and remain competitive.

 

kami333

Diamond Member
Dec 12, 2001
5,110
2
76
Originally posted by: Calin
Originally posted by: shabby
Lets try some math here on the benefits(or lack of) of hybrids.

Civic sedan base - $15010 - 30/40 city/hwy mpg so 35mpg avg
Civic hybrid base - $22150 - 49/51 city/hwy mpg so 50mpg avg

Using 0roo0roo's formula we get...
Civic sedan 35mpg/100,000 miles = 2857 gallons
Civic hybrid 50mpg/100,000 miles = 2000 gallons

Civic sedan uses 2857 gallons x $2.5 per gallon = $7142 of fuel for 100,000 miles
Civic hybrid uses 2000 gallons x $2.5 per gallon = $5000 of fuel for 100,000 miles

Every 100,000 miles you save $2142 with the hybrid, however since the hybrid costs $7140 more from the start you would have to drive the hybrid 333,333 miles so you could offset its higher price.
I dont know about you but im not gonna drive a car for over 25 years. If hybrids were the same price as the current car then it would make sense, but since they're not it doesnt. Only to the tree huggers it does, but theres not many of those so who cares.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsdown:

Wrong trim level. He's using the price of a DX, whereas the hybrid has EX trim.
 

AMCRambler

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2001
7,715
31
91
Originally posted by: kami333
Originally posted by: Calin
Originally posted by: shabby
Lets try some math here on the benefits(or lack of) of hybrids.

Civic sedan base - $15010 - 30/40 city/hwy mpg so 35mpg avg
Civic hybrid base - $22150 - 49/51 city/hwy mpg so 50mpg avg

Using 0roo0roo's formula we get...
Civic sedan 35mpg/100,000 miles = 2857 gallons
Civic hybrid 50mpg/100,000 miles = 2000 gallons

Civic sedan uses 2857 gallons x $2.5 per gallon = $7142 of fuel for 100,000 miles
Civic hybrid uses 2000 gallons x $2.5 per gallon = $5000 of fuel for 100,000 miles

Every 100,000 miles you save $2142 with the hybrid, however since the hybrid costs $7140 more from the start you would have to drive the hybrid 333,333 miles so you could offset its higher price.
I dont know about you but im not gonna drive a car for over 25 years. If hybrids were the same price as the current car then it would make sense, but since they're not it doesnt. Only to the tree huggers it does, but theres not many of those so who cares.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsdown:

Wrong trim level. He's using the price of a DX, whereas the hybrid has EX trim.

So you can't get a hybrid in DX trim level? Then I think his example still works. Lowest priced normal vs lowest priced hybrid.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
it doesn't. because its pretending the only thing different is the power train.
 

Dritnul

Senior member
Jan 9, 2006
781
0
0
Originally posted by: randym431
A friend just got the toyota prius link

All I can say is WHY is the US auto industry not in front on this?
Why did my friend have to drive 600 miles to get one, made by toyota, and not Ford or GM or "some" US auto maker???

The take holds 12 gallons. They filled up and drove the 600 miles back and still had plenty of gas in the tank. This car is just so nice. Its a crying shame US auto makers rather lay off auto workers because the industry will not change and give the people what they want. Really sad, but the car is great!

Check out the inside 360 view on their site...WOW


Our toyota dealer told me their average shelf life(time on lot b4 they r sold) is 1.1 Days fastest selling of all cars in america

and u can get a $3,700 tax credit for buying one
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
Hybrid Technology is a loss, plain and simple. By the time you get your money back, the batteries in the car will be dying and you'll need new ones. And these batteries aren't cheap, you're looking at the cost of more than a new engine.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
Originally posted by: AMCRambler
Originally posted by: kami333
Originally posted by: Calin
Originally posted by: shabby
Lets try some math here on the benefits(or lack of) of hybrids.

Civic sedan base - $15010 - 30/40 city/hwy mpg so 35mpg avg
Civic hybrid base - $22150 - 49/51 city/hwy mpg so 50mpg avg

Using 0roo0roo's formula we get...
Civic sedan 35mpg/100,000 miles = 2857 gallons
Civic hybrid 50mpg/100,000 miles = 2000 gallons

Civic sedan uses 2857 gallons x $2.5 per gallon = $7142 of fuel for 100,000 miles
Civic hybrid uses 2000 gallons x $2.5 per gallon = $5000 of fuel for 100,000 miles

Every 100,000 miles you save $2142 with the hybrid, however since the hybrid costs $7140 more from the start you would have to drive the hybrid 333,333 miles so you could offset its higher price.
I dont know about you but im not gonna drive a car for over 25 years. If hybrids were the same price as the current car then it would make sense, but since they're not it doesnt. Only to the tree huggers it does, but theres not many of those so who cares.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsdown:

Wrong trim level. He's using the price of a DX, whereas the hybrid has EX trim.

So you can't get a hybrid in DX trim level? Then I think his example still works. Lowest priced normal vs lowest priced hybrid.

How does it work?!?! The DX Civic doens't even come with A/C! The ONLY comparison that can be made is between two similarly equipped cars, and a DX Civic and Hybrid are worlds apart. Might as well use a Toyota Yaris and compare it against the Lexus LS400H to show how hybrid technology won't pay off!