Just saw letters from Iwo Jima

[zerocool84]

Some people are too thick headed to believe that their own side did terrible things.

Just stick to topic.........Letters From Iwo Jima is a great movie. This is Off Topic NOT P&N

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Both sides do good things, and both sides do bad things. And this is on an individual level. Rising above the propaganda of "the other side" are evil savages. Thats what the movie is mainly about.

Propaganda??? Japanese soldiers systematically killing innocent people.. thats propaganda??? Japanese killing surrendering and wounded American soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March) .. I guess thats propaganda too???

I'm going to rise about the propgganada, and not see this movie..

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: BD2003

Both sides do good things, and both sides do bad things. And this is on an individual level. Rising above the propaganda of "the other side" are evil savages. Thats what the movie is mainly about.

Propaganda??? Japanese soldiers systematically killing innocent people.. thats propaganda??? Japanese killing surrendering and wounded American soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March) .. I guess thats propaganda too???

I'm going to rise about the propgganada, and not see this movie..

Japanese soldiers killed innocent people. American soldiers killed innocent people. This is not news!

The japanese bombed pearl harbor with no warning, and that was terrible. We bombed and nuked their entire country into the ground, and that was equally horrible.

Japanese soldiers killed captured american soldiers. American soliders killed captured japanese soldiers...again...this is NOT news!

They treated our POWs like sh*t, as we did theirs...internment camps anyone?

You will see all of the above in the movie! It is NOT about who was right, and who was wrong. It shows both the good and the ugly of *individuals* both sides. You can generalize you all want, but those generalizations do not capture the essence of the individual soldier's acts and experience.

If you continue to believe that the all the japanese soldiers were evil, and all of our soldiers were good, then you are just plain delusional.

 

[soulcougher73]

I love WW2 movies. Band of Brothers being my all time favorite. But i also think FOOF was a terrible movie. It didnt make me care for any of the main actors in the movie, and it was too choppy jumping all over the place> I had high hopes for it since it was a Clint Eastwood film. But in the end..just meh

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: soulcougher73
I love WW2 movies. Band of Brothers being my all time favorite. But i also think FOOF was a terrible movie. It didnt make me care for any of the main actors in the movie, and it was too choppy jumping all over the place> I had high hopes for it since it was a Clint Eastwood film. But in the end..just meh

Band of Brothers was my all time favorite, and FOOF was a disappointment, but this movie is now by far the most powerful war movie I've ever seen. The writing and acting is superb, from start to finish. Like FOOF, its far more about the internal conflict within the army than the conflict with the enemy, but iwo jima will definitely get to you.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: BD2003

Both sides do good things, and both sides do bad things. And this is on an individual level. Rising above the propaganda of "the other side" are evil savages. Thats what the movie is mainly about.

Propaganda??? Japanese soldiers systematically killing innocent people.. thats propaganda??? Japanese killing surrendering and wounded American soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March) .. I guess thats propaganda too???

I'm going to rise about the propgganada, and not see this movie..

Japanese soldiers killed innocent people. American soldiers killed innocent people. This is not news!

The japanese bombed pearl harbor with no warning, and that was terrible. We bombed and nuked their entire country into the ground, and that was equally horrible.

Japanese soldiers killed captured american soldiers. American soliders killed captured japanese soldiers...again...this is NOT news!

They treated our POWs like sh*t, as we did theirs...internment camps anyone?

You will see all of the above in the movie! It is NOT about who was right, and who was wrong. It shows both the good and the ugly of *individuals* both sides. You can generalize you all want, but those generalizations do not capture the essence of the individual soldier's acts and experience.

If you continue to believe that the all the japanese soldiers were evil, and all of our soldiers were good, then you are just plain delusional.

Mortality rates for Allied POWs in Japanese hands were the worst of the war by a large margin, IIRC. Many people aren't really aware of everything they did. To claim civilian Japanese internment camps in the US (as wrong as I think they were) had anything in common with Japanese POW camps/treatment is historically ignorant or dishonest. On the whole, US war conduct was orders of magnitude more compassionate than what the Imperial Japanese Army displayed. Most of the world outside Asia has forgotten this.

I don't think most Japanese soldiers were evil, just manipulated and conditioned to do some horrible things buy their political establishment backed by the zaibatsu. The fact remains that we had to go through them to achieve the end goal and I don't feel bad about that, I feel bad that they were used so completely by their nation's elite to and mostly didn't have enough perspective to say no.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: BD2003

Both sides do good things, and both sides do bad things. And this is on an individual level. Rising above the propaganda of "the other side" are evil savages. Thats what the movie is mainly about.

Propaganda??? Japanese soldiers systematically killing innocent people.. thats propaganda??? Japanese killing surrendering and wounded American soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March) .. I guess thats propaganda too???

I'm going to rise about the propgganada, and not see this movie..

Japanese soldiers killed innocent people. American soldiers killed innocent people. This is not news!

The japanese bombed pearl harbor with no warning, and that was terrible. We bombed and nuked their entire country into the ground, and that was equally horrible.

Japanese soldiers killed captured american soldiers. American soliders killed captured japanese soldiers...again...this is NOT news!

They treated our POWs like sh*t, as we did theirs...internment camps anyone?

You will see all of the above in the movie! It is NOT about who was right, and who was wrong. It shows both the good and the ugly of *individuals* both sides. You can generalize you all want, but those generalizations do not capture the essence of the individual soldier's acts and experience.

If you continue to believe that the all the japanese soldiers were evil, and all of our soldiers were good, then you are just plain delusional.

Mortality rates for Allied POWs in Japanese hands were the worst of the war by a large margin, IIRC. Many people aren't really aware of everything they did. To claim civilian Japanese internment camps in the US (as wrong as I think they were) had anything in common with Japanese POW camps/treatment is historically ignorant or dishonest. On the whole, US war conduct was orders of magnitude more compassionate than what the Imperial Japanese Army displayed. Most of the world outside Asia has forgotten this.

I don't think most Japanese soldiers were evil, just manipulated and conditioned to do some horrible things buy their political establishment backed by the zaibatsu. The fact remains that we had to go through them to achieve the end goal and I don't feel bad about that, I feel bad that they were used so completely by their nation's elite to and mostly didn't have enough perspective to say no.

I don't claim them as equal in magnitude, but perhaps equal in idea. The atrocities of the way POWs were treated was touched upon in both FOOF and LFIJ.

As far as the rest of your post, I completely agree. But that is evident in any side, in any war. And for whatever reasons a war starts, once the fighting begins, it becomes a personal blood feud, plain and simple. The individual soldiers fight for the safety of themselves and their fellow soldiers. Believing that the other side is less than human is a necessity for killing them effectively.

Compared to the way the japanese and americans treated each other, the war between the germans and americans was vastly different, because believing they were savages was essentially impossible. Some of those scenes dealing with this were the most powerful in the movie, which I don't want to spoil...you'd know them if you saw them.

 

[Passions]

The Japanese raped, killed, and beheaded normal civilians. They even forced fathers to rape their daughters and sons to rape their mothers. They kidnapped local girls and made them into sex slaves servicing dozens of soldiers per day. Mind you that this was not an isolated incidence, but an official Imperial policy to dehumanize the enemy!!!

Please find me an article where any American GI's did this to the local population. I'm not saying that American GI's were all angels and never committed atrocities, yet they were no way on par of the brutality committed by Japanese Imperial soldiers.

War is hell, but the Japanese took it to another level.

Clint Eastwood made a movie glorifying and romanticizing the Japanese side with their personal "letters." Please, spare me the romance.

The only satisfaction that comes from this movie is how it flopped in the box office ticket numbers.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: BD2003

Both sides do good things, and both sides do bad things. And this is on an individual level. Rising above the propaganda of "the other side" are evil savages. Thats what the movie is mainly about.

Propaganda??? Japanese soldiers systematically killing innocent people.. thats propaganda??? Japanese killing surrendering and wounded American soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March) .. I guess thats propaganda too???

I'm going to rise about the propgganada, and not see this movie..

Japanese soldiers killed innocent people. American soldiers killed innocent people. This is not news!

The japanese bombed pearl harbor with no warning, and that was terrible. We bombed and nuked their entire country into the ground, and that was equally horrible.

Japanese soldiers killed captured american soldiers. American soliders killed captured japanese soldiers...again...this is NOT news!

They treated our POWs like sh*t, as we did theirs...internment camps anyone?

You will see all of the above in the movie! It is NOT about who was right, and who was wrong. It shows both the good and the ugly of *individuals* both sides. You can generalize you all want, but those generalizations do not capture the essence of the individual soldier's acts and experience.

If you continue to believe that the all the japanese soldiers were evil, and all of our soldiers were good, then you are just plain delusional.

Mortality rates for Allied POWs in Japanese hands were the worst of the war by a large margin, IIRC. Many people aren't really aware of everything they did. To claim civilian Japanese internment camps in the US (as wrong as I think they were) had anything in common with Japanese POW camps/treatment is historically ignorant or dishonest. On the whole, US war conduct was orders of magnitude more compassionate than what the Imperial Japanese Army displayed. Most of the world outside Asia has forgotten this.

I don't think most Japanese soldiers were evil, just manipulated and conditioned to do some horrible things buy their political establishment backed by the zaibatsu. The fact remains that we had to go through them to achieve the end goal and I don't feel bad about that, I feel bad that they were used so completely by their nation's elite to and mostly didn't have enough perspective to say no.

I don't claim them as equal in magnitude, but perhaps equal in idea. The atrocities of the way POWs were treated was touched upon in both FOOF and LFIJ.

As far as the rest of your post, I completely agree. But that is evident in any side, in any war. And for whatever reasons a war starts, once the fighting begins, it becomes a personal blood feud, plain and simple. The individual soldiers fight for the safety of themselves and their fellow soldiers. Believing that the other side is less than human is a necessity for killing them effectively.

Compared to the way the japanese and americans treated each other, the war between the germans and americans was vastly different, because believing they were savages was essentially impossible. Some of those scenes dealing with this were the most powerful in the movie, which I don't want to spoil...you'd know them if you saw them.

I haven't had the chance to view either film but I plan to in the relatively near future.

American soldiers and marines were largely stunned at the viciousness/fanaticism the average Japanese soldier showed in combat at the beginning of the war. Once it was made very clear what the playing field was they had little in the way of choice and had to play on it.

There was typically no such animosity in the European theatre or at least not nearly so widespread. IIRC, The war between the Americans and the Germans was once described as the "war without hate". Both Americans and Germans faired relatively well in their respective POW camps.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Passions
The Japanese raped, killed, and beheaded normal civilians. They even forced fathers to rape their daughters and sons to rape their mothers. They kidnapped local girls and made them into sex slaves servicing dozens of soldiers per day. Mind you that this was not an isolated incidence, but an official Imperial policy to dehumanize the enemy!!!

Please find me an article where any American GI's did this to the local population. I'm not saying that American GI's were all angels and never committed atrocities, yet they were no way on par of the brutality committed by Japanese Imperial soldiers.

War is hell, but the Japanese took it to another level.

Clint Eastwood made a movie glorifying and romanticizing the Japanese side with their personal "letters." Please, spare me the romance.

The only satisfaction that comes from this movie is how it flopped in the box office ticket numbers.

How can you judge it so when you admittedly have not seen it?
What you say might or might not be true, but I like to wait until I have some frame of reference before making claims like that.

 

[jtusa]

Eh, I wasn't impressed. They didn't do a very good job of portraying how epic and nasty the battle for the island really was. Same problem with Flags, could've been much better. They should have spent more time on the battle and less on the guys in the states (especially the indian guy, good god he cannot act, he was just as bad in Windtalkers, another worthless movie that could've been amazing).

For both movies, amazing stories that should never be forgotten, just weren't told well this time around.

 

[Passions]

Originally posted by: jtusa
Eh, I wasn't impressed. They didn't do a very good job of portraying how epic and nasty the battle for the island really was. Same problem with Flags, could've been much better. They should have spent more time on the battle and less on the guys in the states (especially the indian guy, good god he cannot act, he was just as bad in Windtalkers, another worthless movie that could've been amazing).

For both movies, amazing stories that should never be forgotten, just weren't told well this time around.

Of course not. If Clint Eastwood showed how epic and nasty the Japanese were raping and murdering civilians, that wouldn't translate into a touchy and feely Hollywood movie.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: jtusa
Eh, I wasn't impressed. They didn't do a very good job of portraying how epic and nasty the battle for the island really was. Same problem with Flags, could've been much better. They should have spent more time on the battle and less on the guys in the states (especially the indian guy, good god he cannot act, he was just as bad in Windtalkers, another worthless movie that could've been amazing).

For both movies, amazing stories that should never be forgotten, just weren't told well this time around.

Of course not. If Clint Eastwood showed how epic and nasty the Japanese were raping and murdering civilians, that wouldn't translate into a touchy and feely Hollywood movie.

Were there a lot of raping and killing of civilians on Iwo Jima?

 

[Passions]

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: jtusa
Eh, I wasn't impressed. They didn't do a very good job of portraying how epic and nasty the battle for the island really was. Same problem with Flags, could've been much better. They should have spent more time on the battle and less on the guys in the states (especially the indian guy, good god he cannot act, he was just as bad in Windtalkers, another worthless movie that could've been amazing).

For both movies, amazing stories that should never be forgotten, just weren't told well this time around.

Of course not. If Clint Eastwood showed how epic and nasty the Japanese were raping and murdering civilians, that wouldn't translate into a touchy and feely Hollywood movie.

Were there a lot of raping and killing of civilians on Iwo Jima?

Whoever said I was talking about Iwo Jima? I'm talking about the Japanese Imperial policy.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: jtusa
Eh, I wasn't impressed. They didn't do a very good job of portraying how epic and nasty the battle for the island really was. Same problem with Flags, could've been much better. They should have spent more time on the battle and less on the guys in the states (especially the indian guy, good god he cannot act, he was just as bad in Windtalkers, another worthless movie that could've been amazing).

For both movies, amazing stories that should never be forgotten, just weren't told well this time around.

Of course not. If Clint Eastwood showed how epic and nasty the Japanese were raping and murdering civilians, that wouldn't translate into a touchy and feely Hollywood movie.

Were there a lot of raping and killing of civilians on Iwo Jima?

Whoever said I was talking about Iwo Jima? I'm talking about the Japanese Imperial policy.

Um.... this THREAD.

 

[Passions]

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: jtusa
Eh, I wasn't impressed. They didn't do a very good job of portraying how epic and nasty the battle for the island really was. Same problem with Flags, could've been much better. They should have spent more time on the battle and less on the guys in the states (especially the indian guy, good god he cannot act, he was just as bad in Windtalkers, another worthless movie that could've been amazing).

For both movies, amazing stories that should never be forgotten, just weren't told well this time around.

Of course not. If Clint Eastwood showed how epic and nasty the Japanese were raping and murdering civilians, that wouldn't translate into a touchy and feely Hollywood movie.

Were there a lot of raping and killing of civilians on Iwo Jima?

Whoever said I was talking about Iwo Jima? I'm talking about the Japanese Imperial policy.

Um.... this THREAD.

Japanese sympathizer.

 

[LongCoolMother]

Originally posted by: Passions
The Japanese raped, killed, and beheaded normal civilians. They even forced fathers to rape their daughters and sons to rape their mothers. They kidnapped local girls and made them into sex slaves servicing dozens of soldiers per day. Mind you that this was not an isolated incidence, but an official Imperial policy to dehumanize the enemy!!!

Please find me an article where any American GI's did this to the local population. I'm not saying that American GI's were all angels and never committed atrocities, yet they were no way on par of the brutality committed by Japanese Imperial soldiers.

War is hell, but the Japanese took it to another level.

Clint Eastwood made a movie glorifying and romanticizing the Japanese side with their personal "letters." Please, spare me the romance.

The only satisfaction that comes from this movie is how it flopped in the box office ticket numbers.

QFT. and dont give me crap about "war is terrible. the soldiers were victims of propganda. japanese soldiers were bad, but american soldiers were bad too. we nuked them."

Hello..? the US was provoked to enter the war. hell, they should have joined the war anyway-- with japan wreaking havoc all over asia.

 

[jtusa]

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: jtusa
Eh, I wasn't impressed. They didn't do a very good job of portraying how epic and nasty the battle for the island really was. Same problem with Flags, could've been much better. They should have spent more time on the battle and less on the guys in the states (especially the indian guy, good god he cannot act, he was just as bad in Windtalkers, another worthless movie that could've been amazing).

For both movies, amazing stories that should never be forgotten, just weren't told well this time around.

Of course not. If Clint Eastwood showed how epic and nasty the Japanese were raping and murdering civilians, that wouldn't translate into a touchy and feely Hollywood movie.

Were there a lot of raping and killing of civilians on Iwo Jima?

Whoever said I was talking about Iwo Jima? I'm talking about the Japanese Imperial policy.

Um.... this THREAD.

Japanese sympathizer.

Haha, my whole point was the movie didn't feel "big". Look at Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, Black Hawk Down. They all did a good job of "creating" the war or battle, giving it the the awe and emotion inspiring feel. FOOF and LFIJ just felt sort of empty. They spent too much time trying to tell individual stories that they forgot about the battle itself.

 

[Rogodin2]

Propaganda? You mean like a completely unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor? That single event is what catapulted the United States into WWII. Yeah, war is hell. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy toward the Japanese for their actions during WWII though...nor the Germans

You're ignorant-and your premise is without merit.

The U.S. was and still is the primary impetus for imperialism. In the 1930's we began to curtail (by more than diplomatic means) the expansion of the Japense-though they were only following the route we and other global national powers (Great Britain, France, and Spain) had taken. They just wanted a piece of the pie baby. We began to isolate them in the late 30s, both economically and politically. Though December 11th 1945 was a horror-it was one propogated by the the actions of our great nation.

If you're as naive as your post then you're in for a world of hurt as we (as a nation) decline into something resembling the fractured nation states of the Roman Empire.

You ain't no kind of man if don't got land

Rogo

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2

Propaganda? You mean like a completely unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor? That single event is what catapulted the United States into WWII. Yeah, war is hell. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy toward the Japanese for their actions during WWII though...nor the Germans

You're ignorant-and your premise is without merit.

The U.S. was and still is the primary impetus for imperialism. In the 1930's we began to curtail (by more than diplomatic means) the expansion of the Japense-though they were only following the route we and other global national powers (Great Britain, France, and Spain) had taken. They just wanted a piece of the pie baby. We began to isolate them in the late 30s, both economically and politically. Though December 11th 1945 was a horror-it was one propogated by the the actions of our great nation.

If you're as naive as your post then you're in for a world of hurt as we (as a nation) decline into something resembling the fractured nation states of the Roman Empire.

You ain't no kind of man if don't got land

Rogo

We stopped supplying the steel and oil Japan required to complete it's conquest of Asia. Given the exceptionally brutal brand of imperialism Japan practiced I still don't see how it was an unreasonable call to cease shipments of strategic materials when it was decidedly not in our national interest (immediate or future) to do so either. We were well within our rights to stop selling to them anyway. Given the state of the world at the time, U.S. involvement in WWII was required in order to tip the scales to the Allied Powers. FDR (one of the few times I credit him) had the vision and resolve to realize this and presented the Japanese with a temptation they were foolish enough to take without being anything close to a legitimate casus belli.


Japan tried to put a gun to our head to force us to comply with their wishes. We misjudged their abilities while they misjudged our will. History is pretty clear on who made the worse mistake.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Passions

Clint Eastwood made a movie glorifying and romanticizing the Japanese side with their personal "letters." Please, spare me the romance.

Being that you are apparently the authority on the movie, even though you havent seen it, please explain to me how the movie and the letters glorified and romanticized the japanese.

"Tell our son to clean the kitchen, I didnt get a chance." - very romantic indeed.

"I want to go home, all we do is dig all day, let the americans have this island" - yep, thats glorious and romantic.

In fact, if theres anyone else that has seen the movie, that can remind me of a single moment of glorification or romanticization, I'd love to hear it...I can't think of any.

 

[NakaNaka]

I think its disapointing this thread has become about U.S. versus Japanese actions. Individual soldiers did not start the war. I hate those who raped the Chinese in Nanjing and those who caused so much suffering/death in Germany, but the individual soldier who just fought for his country is not at fault, no matter what side he is on. This movie is about the pain of war for individual soldiers. It's not anti-U.S. It's anti-war.

 

[TehMac]

Eh, I looked at the trailer, and well...its wrong. Its wrong. Being a great hollywood epic, it shows brave men and guys who believed firmly what they were doing was right. In reality, these dudes were brain washed into thinking it, same with the Germans, though not to that level of zeal. And the United States actually saved lives nuking the Japanese, because the Japanese might have fought til the population was greatly reduced all in all. And the US would have lost a ton more of their own men. Its sad, but hell, the Japanese werent about to quit, and they pretty much had it coming to em.

And I agree with Naka Naka. It was not the individual soldier's fault, but the country's as a whole. Still, you gotta kill em.

 

[miri]

It is apparent that many people have criticized this movie without seeing it.

It does not show the average Japanese soldier as a brave heroic warrior, on the contrary it shows the broken soldier. One that is overcome with fear and worry. I do not remember seeing any heroic act by any Japanese soldier in the film. Yes we see Japanese soldiers dying, but showing them as heroes? No.

This movie basically shows what happens when these soldiers come face to face with defeat and some of their actions and emotions.

 

[sandorski]

Wow, some Idiots in this thread. I wonder if they can enjoy any American war movie knowing that Custer murdered innocent women and children?