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Just read that 770 gays were discharged from service
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judasmachine
Diamond Member
If I were in Iraq, I'd switch teams to go home. =)
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
What do you mean? A little St John's Wort will clear that right up! :roll:
BugsBunny1078
Banned
You're silly.
The question was people who have suffered from depression, that could be a single case of being depressed in which yes St John's Wort is useful vs. that.
Then others bring up cases with severe cases of bipolarism and manic depression. Well I was married to such a case so don't tell me I don't know about it. I have the bruises and battle scars. A little typo occurred when I said depression could be cured instead of treated , sometimes my brain does word replacement games on me. I will go edit it now so as not to cause further confusion.
The question was people who have suffered from depression, that could be a single case of being depressed in which yes St John's Wort is useful vs. that.
Then others bring up cases with severe cases of bipolarism and manic depression. Well I was married to such a case so don't tell me I don't know about it. I have the bruises and battle scars. A little typo occurred when I said depression could be cured instead of treated , sometimes my brain does word replacement games on me. I will go edit it now so as not to cause further confusion.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
I can't blame her - I am depressed just by reading your posts here.
most if not all anti depressant have various side effects which usualy results in a very different character behaviour
I have suffered from depression and alot of my friends have and we all agree that the drugs do some good but they dont fix anything just evens everything out. So dealing with the bad times become easier but in turn there are alot less good times because of the drugs so the fight against depression still rages just as hard but its only different.
and since you say that homosexuality is a disease that can be fixed and they should not be in the army but people who suffer from despression should I can say just from my own personal experiance, gay people are alot more stable than depressed people. Sad thing is though is that many of them suffer from depression as well because of the hostility they counter all the time.
Why dont you trust gay's in the military? and why do you think they will be having constant orgies?
BugsBunny1078
Banned
Try some St. John's Wort.
The only problem with the current policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is that it's abused by those being discharged, not by the government. The article that I read today on this subject stated that the majority of those discharged were at the beginning of their careers but failed to ask why that's the case.
When I did an audit of discharge cases at the legal office of an Air Force training base a couple years ago, I found that the VAST majority of the cases involving homosexuality were those who self-identified to the command (they simply stated, "I'm gay"). The command is thus required to conduct an investigation to determine the veracity of the statement. If it's true, then the person is discharged.
Guess what? The investigations conducted were extremely perfunctory. They consisted of the investigating officer interviewing the subject almost exclusively then crafting a report stating that the declaration was legitimate. The subject is then given a general discharge (believe it is, can't recall exactly now) which is given to those who have served less than a year (essentially, there is no basis for either an honorable or a punitive discharge because there is no record on which to characterize the service).
Now, ask yourself what happens when someone finds out that they can leave the service, without penalty in most cases, if they simply state that they are gay? If they are distinctly unhappy with military life and want out, both the subject and the military are better off letting them go quickly and quietly. The subject won't be a discplinary problem or cause additional people to become unruly as a bad influence ("this place sucks", etc.), and the military doesn't waste additional money training that individual and can focus on those who WANT to be there. Do you think that perhaps there are plenty of people abusing the system in this manner?
Bottomline is that not even close to all of those people discharged were actually gay. Granted, there are a few cases were people are "caught in the act" (read some interesting accounts), but that's far from the majority. Of course, that's only one base for one period of time, but I have little doubt that the same trend is similar elsewhere, especially at a training base such as that was.
Don_Vito: Ever worked at Lackland, Shepherd, or someplace similar where the number of first term Airmen in training is very high?
When I did an audit of discharge cases at the legal office of an Air Force training base a couple years ago, I found that the VAST majority of the cases involving homosexuality were those who self-identified to the command (they simply stated, "I'm gay"). The command is thus required to conduct an investigation to determine the veracity of the statement. If it's true, then the person is discharged.
Guess what? The investigations conducted were extremely perfunctory. They consisted of the investigating officer interviewing the subject almost exclusively then crafting a report stating that the declaration was legitimate. The subject is then given a general discharge (believe it is, can't recall exactly now) which is given to those who have served less than a year (essentially, there is no basis for either an honorable or a punitive discharge because there is no record on which to characterize the service).
Now, ask yourself what happens when someone finds out that they can leave the service, without penalty in most cases, if they simply state that they are gay? If they are distinctly unhappy with military life and want out, both the subject and the military are better off letting them go quickly and quietly. The subject won't be a discplinary problem or cause additional people to become unruly as a bad influence ("this place sucks", etc.), and the military doesn't waste additional money training that individual and can focus on those who WANT to be there. Do you think that perhaps there are plenty of people abusing the system in this manner?
Bottomline is that not even close to all of those people discharged were actually gay. Granted, there are a few cases were people are "caught in the act" (read some interesting accounts), but that's far from the majority. Of course, that's only one base for one period of time, but I have little doubt that the same trend is similar elsewhere, especially at a training base such as that was.
Don_Vito: Ever worked at Lackland, Shepherd, or someplace similar where the number of first term Airmen in training is very high?
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
No, I haven't. I tend to think you're right in regard to what you're saying, though, at least as to entry-level airmen (and presumably soldiers, sailors, and Marines as well).
I have never worked on a discharge action involving a person who was in their first year in the service. In my experience, most homosexual discharges have involved people self-identifying, but I believe all those people were in fact homosexual. In most instances it appeared to me that their peers had suspected they were g@y, and that they were subjected to a lot of anti-homosexual banter in the workplace that made them uncomfortable but did not rise to the level of personal harassment.
In my observation (and I think this is a good thing), most commanders are reticent to investigate alleged homosexuality, because they prefer to leave people to their private lives as long as it doesn't interfere with the mission. I remember one instance in which I was in the legal office, and a former Navy member was basically trying to "out" an airman. His commander's reaction was, "unless they're doing it in my parking space, I don't want to know anything about it!" The rules require that action be taken if the command receives information from a credible source that a member is homosexual, but in that instance he and JA agreed the source wasn't credible.
I have, on the other hand, seen commanders get a little nosy in rooting out homosexuals, and try to prevent them from fighting discharge actions by recommending general discharges in an effort to procure a conditional waiver of the member's discharge board hearing, a tactic I'm not crazy about.
I think there are a meaningful number of homosexuals in the military (or at least people who appear to be homosexual), and for the most part they are able to co-exist peacefully with others (notwithstanding the factually-strange murder of PFC Barry Winchell at Fort Campbell a few years ago, which appeared to be predicated on his alleged homosexuality). If you look at the poll numbers, though, military members are heavily opposed to allowing homosexual conduct in the military, so I don't see any liberalization of the policy happening anytime soon.
Steeplerot
Lifer
Bugs go find some sweet man-lovin homophobes like you are the biggest closet cases of them all.
FelixDeCat
Lifer
Thats not the point. It lowers morale.
Hossenfeffer
Diamond Member
Wow...
Just... wow.
FelixDeCat
Lifer
You dont get what?
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