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just how much is a degree worth?
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none of these anecdotal my dad this, my second cousin on my mother's side that, stories makes a bit of a difference in the overall argument.
the statistics armitage dug up is a step in the right direction.
sure, there will always be exceptions like bill gates who can make billions without a degree, but look at the averages. his billions must've been offset by billions of people working miminum wage for the average to be that low.
the chances are, someone with a degree will make 20k+ more than someone without.
the statistics armitage dug up is a step in the right direction.
sure, there will always be exceptions like bill gates who can make billions without a degree, but look at the averages. his billions must've been offset by billions of people working miminum wage for the average to be that low.
the chances are, someone with a degree will make 20k+ more than someone without.
I agree most of what you just said. I don't like braggarts, either, but I also don't like people who feel the need to put down other people for one reason or another. I would never walk into a room and say, "I make XXX a year", but if I'm in that room and someone is sitting there saying, "people who don't do as I did will never make xxx a year", then I feel the need to defend myself.
I'm not big on status. I like to do my own thing and I treat other people with respect. But the moment they start looking down on me because they perceive me as being less intelligent, I'm going to point out the obvious to them.
BoberFett
Lifer
Those statistics are meaningless. A person who goes to college also likely has more drive and determination than a person who doesn't. So what really made the difference? That person's ambition or their schooling?
I skipped college, I hated school, I joined the Army Reserve as a grunt instead until I figured out what I was going to do. At 20 (way back in 1995) I got a job starting out at $22,500. In less than a year I was up to $30,000. The next three years in a row I got $10,000 per year raises. That put me up to $60,000 per year at age 23 with no college. This was in St. Cloud, MN where the cost of living is pretty low, and according to this information, the average salary (in the Stearns/Sherburne/Benton county area) per capita in 1998 was around $22,000[/l. Damn, that lack of a degree was a serious cramp in my income, wouldn't you say? Almost three times the average, what was I to do?
I probably could have kept going at that company getting large raises, but my personal life took me in a different direction. Six months after I left that job I got one that paid $50,000 per year. I stayed there for a couple years, and probably could have been making quite a bit more than that, but again I decided to go in a different direction.
By the time you've been in the workplace a few years, the only place degrees are useful is in big companies. Big companies receive thousands of resumes, and a degree is just one way they narrow that stack of resumes. Those people they eliminate without degrees may be more qualified than those who have degrees, but a big company can't take the time to interview 1000 people to find one.
On the other hand, small companies will often hire people based on experience, with degree or not. And considering that small companies employ roughly 3/4 of the US population, that means there are still plenty of jobs available to those without college degrees.
BoberFett
Lifer
Realtors don't even need to have a high school diploma. An outgoing, ambitious person can make lots of money with no education. I'm sure there are a lot of small business owners who don't have a degree.
It may not be 100K, but electricians, plumbers, locksmiths, heavy equipment operators and other tradeskills can make serious money with no college.
If some of you would open up your mind, you'd see that there are more ways in this world than yours. If holding up your degree and telling people who chose not to go to college that they're inferior makes you feel better about yourself, you really are a pathetic person and I certainly would hire you for ANY job.
batmang
Diamond Member
i totally agree. as for phd, i have no clue.
masters can sometimes mean crapload of work, and a lot of stress, for not enough of a compensation.
bachelors are usually the best to get... i myself have an associate, im 23, and make 40k.
im happy where im at, and i have time to advance at my work, im a computer tech at a hospital... very fun/easy job.
I'd say that a person's schooling is an indication of their ambition. Again, not that people without degrees don't have ambition, but they're going to have to find a way to prove it.
Back to an earlier comment - skilled trades are definitely neglected by these statistics. I suspect the H.S. grads distribution is very bimodal - a big hump around minimum wage, and another up where the skilled craftsman, small business owners, etc. reside.
It depends what you're doing. There was a time a few decades back where you could get an engineering job without an engineering degree. I had a prof. who only had a B.S., and I think he got that during his career at Grumman. I can't imagine that being the case anymore, small company or not.
Here's some more from the census bureau, averaged over the ages of 21 to 64:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call1usboth.html
H.S. Grad: $27,351
Bachelors: $42,877
Advanced: $55,242
Here's another one broken down by occupation:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call2usboth.html
A few nuggets...
Computer and Information Systems Managers: $65,331
Computer Scientists and System Analysts: $50,210
Computer Programmers: $50,807
Computer Software Engineers: $60,795
Computer Support Specialists: $36,337
Database Administrators: $49,560
Network and Computer Systems Administrators: $45,083
Network Systems and Data Communication Analysts: $42,281
Aerospace Engineers: $61,963
That's pretty amazing to me - my first job out of the air force started at about that level, and it's increased significantly from there.
Now this is interesting - there's another column in the census bureau table that lists % of college graduates in that occupation - added in bold above.
I wonder where that 20% of Aerospace engineers without degrees comes from?!? I've never met one that I know of in 11 years in the field. Of course I have little exposure to the aircraft or manufacturing ends of the field.
Sheepathon
Diamond Member
None of you guys have talked about the varying degrees of college, either. IMO, if you can't attend at least a top tier university, and instead take the JC or CC route, you probably would have been more successful starting your own small business out of high school than messing around at a JC or CC unless you seriously wanted to transfer up. With the number of college grads there are today, having a college diploma carries nowhere near the weight it did 50 years ago. It's more of a competency badge that says "Hey, I can put up with all kinds of shyt and still get the job done." It's difficult enough even getting your resume acknowledged with a degree from a top 50.
Kyteland
Diamond Member
Of course there is. It is exactly the subset of those that make 100K on average with no education.
We already have acknowledgement that there is at least one of these people in this thread.
It may not have any other statistically significant labels, but it *does* exists.
😀
IAteYourMother
Lifer
The people that you isolate can make 100k a year, but it's extremely hard for them. The majority of plumbers, etc. do not make close to that much.
BoberFett
Lifer
How many people with a college education make 100K? Considering the average is in the 50K range, apparently not many. Unless there are a lot of college grads making 20K/yr, the average spread is probably more like 30K-70K a year. Do you think plumbers and electricians can make that much per year? I'd say they can easily, and without a degree.
So again, what's your point, along the topic of this thread?
this completely depends on what industry you are working in.
i work int he software development and i dont think you require a masters anywhere unless you want to be in really high level managent. and even then its not an absolute requirement and it would be an MBA not some software degree.
i know most defense contractors want even their lower level engineers to have a masters though. totally depends.
also a 4 year degree matteres a lot past entry level. but if you really are really good you'll rise to the top. again depends what field.
i think the average for a 4 year degree is probably more like low 40k range. maybe in the technology field you are looking at 50k, but technology tends to pay quite a bit more especialy computers (well if you can get a job in it).
i know i had to start as acontractor where i work. and well they wouldnt even have hired me to do a low level tech job where all i did was do qa. and i have a 4 year degree in computer science from a top school. i was told they hire like this since so many people are applying they figured they'd hire people with potential in house so they can move them around later. so thats another ancillary benefit of a 4 year degree, peopel think you have potential , regardless if you really do or not.
i work int he software development and i dont think you require a masters anywhere unless you want to be in really high level managent. and even then its not an absolute requirement and it would be an MBA not some software degree.
i know most defense contractors want even their lower level engineers to have a masters though. totally depends.
also a 4 year degree matteres a lot past entry level. but if you really are really good you'll rise to the top. again depends what field.
i think the average for a 4 year degree is probably more like low 40k range. maybe in the technology field you are looking at 50k, but technology tends to pay quite a bit more especialy computers (well if you can get a job in it).
i know i had to start as acontractor where i work. and well they wouldnt even have hired me to do a low level tech job where all i did was do qa. and i have a 4 year degree in computer science from a top school. i was told they hire like this since so many people are applying they figured they'd hire people with potential in house so they can move them around later. so thats another ancillary benefit of a 4 year degree, peopel think you have potential , regardless if you really do or not.
The sad part is that people are *ONLY* looking at salaries.
A self employed person making $100,000 doesn't get any health insurance. That can easily work out to $10,000 a year depending on the quality of insurance that somebody can pick up through their employer.
A self employed person doesn't get any retirement benefits. My wife was putting in 5% of her salary into a retirement account, her employer doubled that amount for an additional 10%.
Then there's the whole thing of paying A LOT more in taxes as a self employed person since you have to double dip on yourself for social security plus the higher assumed tax rates. Yeh, you can deduct things, but after a certain point you start running out of things to deduct.
My whole point is that salaries aren't everything and statisics are nothing more than numbers that can be interpreted any number of ways.
So what if a guy who doesn't have a degree is self employed is making a *reported* $100,000 a year. His take home probably isn't much better than some guy with a degree making $45,000 or $50,000 a year and gets full benefits from his employer.
A self employed person making $100,000 doesn't get any health insurance. That can easily work out to $10,000 a year depending on the quality of insurance that somebody can pick up through their employer.
A self employed person doesn't get any retirement benefits. My wife was putting in 5% of her salary into a retirement account, her employer doubled that amount for an additional 10%.
Then there's the whole thing of paying A LOT more in taxes as a self employed person since you have to double dip on yourself for social security plus the higher assumed tax rates. Yeh, you can deduct things, but after a certain point you start running out of things to deduct.
My whole point is that salaries aren't everything and statisics are nothing more than numbers that can be interpreted any number of ways.
So what if a guy who doesn't have a degree is self employed is making a *reported* $100,000 a year. His take home probably isn't much better than some guy with a degree making $45,000 or $50,000 a year and gets full benefits from his employer.
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