• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Jury Nullification Works!!!! Raw milk farmer found not guilty

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,329
92
91
Right IMO there are too many places for it to go wrong and the pros aren't outweighing the cons. I also try to make smart choices while driving too because some activity is risky.

If we are staying on the driving metaphor, why have speed limits, seat belts, quality tires?
 
Last edited:

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,304
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
http://www.medicaldiscoverynews.com/shows/253-milk.html

Raw milk is not a risk free choice, I'll take mine pastureized thanks
Exactly, drinking raw milk is like playing Russian Roulette.

http://infectiousdiseases.about.com/od/g/a/milkborne.htm

Infectious Microbes Found in Cow’s Milk

Bacillus cereus: These bacteria produce a toxin that can cause diarrhea and another that causes vomiting. Bacillus cereus spores are heat-resistant and may survive pasteurization. There have even been very rare cases linked to dried milk and dried infant formula.

Brucella: Brucella is a bacterial microbe that is found in unpasteurized dairy products. Brucella infection, or Brucellosis, has also been called “Undulant Fever” because of the regular recurrence of fever associated with the disease.

Campylobacter jejuni: Campylobacter jejuni is the most common bacteria to cause diarrheal disease in the U.S. and is found in raw milk and poultry. It has an increased chance of causing disease when consumed in milk, because the basic pH of milk neutralizes the acidity of the stomach.

Coxiella burnetii: Coxiella infects a variety of animals, including livestock and pets. The microbe can be found in cow’s milk and is resistant to heat and drying. Infection by Coxiella results in Q fever, a high fever that may last up to 2 weeks.

E. coli O157:H7: This particular strain of E. coli has been associated with a number of food-borne outbreaks and is the cause of bloody diarrhea. Frequently associated with dairy cattle, microbial contamination of raw milk and soft cheeses can result in disease.

Listeria monocytogenes: Listeria is a common bacterial pathogen that is found in soft cheeses and unpasteurized milk. It can even survive below freezing temperatures and can therefore withstand refrigeration. It is particularly dangerous to individuals who have weakened immune systems, including pregnant women, AIDS patients, and the very young and very old.

Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis: This strain of mycobacteria can withstand pasteurization and has been associated with the development of Crohn’s disease, also known as inflammatory bowel syndrome. However, whether or not these bacteria can actually infect humans remains controversial.
Mycobacterium tuberculosis: The cause of “consumption,” a horrific wasting disease that first affects the lungs, Mycobacterium bovis is associated with consumption of raw milk and was one of the most common contaminants prior to the practice of pasteurization. M. bovis causes tuberculosis in cows and can be passed to humans via unpasteurized cow's milk, causing a disease that is very similar to M. tuberculosis.

Salmonella: Salmonella contamination of raw milk and milk products has been the source of several outbreaks in recent years. Symptoms include diarrhea and high fever.
Staphylococcus aureus: Staph aureus produces a toxin that causes explosive vomiting. The disease may be considered a consequence of actual food poisoning from simply consuming the toxin, rather than from an actual infection.

Yersinia enterocolitica: Associated with raw milk and ice cream, among other foods, contamination is believed to be a consequence of a breakdown in sanitization and sterilization techniques at dairy processing facilities.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
Right IMO there are too many places for it to go wrong and the pros aren't outweighing the cons. I also try to make smart choices while driving too because some activity is risky.

If we are staying on the driving metaphor, why have speed limits, seat belts, quality tires?
Because there is a demonstrated difference in safety with what you cite. There is not when proper sanitation practices are used. Going with cars, it's an established fact that cars which are red have a higher rate of accidents than other colors. Shall we ban red? Color is a trivial thing after all.

If you were to say that unsanitary dairies are unfit to produce raw milk I'd agree. So put some seat belts on the cows :D
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
61,443
14,350
136
The OP cheers on jury nullification and in the same thread calls for equal protection under the law? Jury nullification is the antithesis of equal protection. Jury nullification is what empowered the klan to lynch people and protected corrupt machine politicians and mob bosses. People have their voice in the creation of laws through the election of lawmakers. Choosing to nullify laws in the jury box is nothing but mob rule.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
But its so righteous! Powa to the people! :colbert:
Sometimes the rightful power of the state is exceeded and there is no effective relief. When they the do not act responsibly, do not respond to the needs of the people, are clueless about the issues they wish to punish others for there are few real alternatives.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
6
81
The OP cheers on jury nullification and in the same thread calls for equal protection under the law? Jury nullification is the antithesis of equal protection. Jury nullification is what empowered the klan to lynch people and protected corrupt machine politicians and mob bosses. People have their voice in the creation of laws through the election of lawmakers. Choosing to nullify laws in the jury box is nothing but mob rule.
The OP's posts have made it clear that he has absolutely no concept of what equal protection even means.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,894
0
0
Because there is a demonstrated difference in safety with what you cite. There is not when proper sanitation practices are used. Going with cars, it's an established fact that cars which are red have a higher rate of accidents than other colors. Shall we ban red? Color is a trivial thing after all.

If you were to say that unsanitary dairies are unfit to produce raw milk I'd agree. So put some seat belts on the cows :D
It's more akin to seat belts. If you never crash your car, you don't need a seat belt. If you crash and you're not wearing one, you're more likely to die.

Similarly, contamination occasionally happens at dairy plants/farms. If your milk is pasteurized, this is less of a big deal.

I'm not sure I have a particularly strong opinion on banning raw milk. It's permitted under limited circumstances in my state, and the world hasn't ended. I choose to buy pasteurized milk because it is safer, but I don't know if it's necessary to ban all raw milk either. I do some things in my life that others would consider dangerous (rock climbing, for example), and don't really feel that risk alone is a good enough reason to ban something.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,329
92
91
I didn't say it couldn't be your choice it just wouldn't be mine, just like smoking isn't risk free I choose not to. However the inofrmation has to be out there so an informed choice can be made. Assertions were made that there were no consequences of raw milk, there is

"The farmer was not harming anyone with raw milk"

Catherine W. Donnelly, Ph.D., a food microbiologist at the University of Vermont, believes that the dangers cancel out any potential nutritional benefits. “Of particular concern is Listeria [a bacterium that results in a foodborne illness, listeriosis], which has a 30 percent mortality rate,” Donnelly warns. “If raw milk is your choice, it’s buyer beware.” When USDA scientists collected raw milk samples from 861 farms in 21 states, nearly a quarter of them contained bacteria linked to human illness, including 5 percent that tested positive for Listeria.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
Sometimes the rightful power of the state is exceeded and there is no effective relief. When they the do not act responsibly, do not respond to the needs of the people, are clueless about the issues they wish to punish others for there are few real alternatives.
I agree. But to handle this within the jury box only leads us down the road to anarchy. Whose needs get responded to then?
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
The OP's posts have made it clear that he has absolutely no concept of what equal protection even means.
Equal protection also calls for equal responsibility.

Why should companies and people have different sets of laws and different punishments?


Jury nullification is the antithesis of equal protection. Jury nullification is what empowered the klan to lynch people and protected corrupt machine politicians and mob bosses.
Would you rather the jury be a rubber stamp for the government?

Have you ever wondered about the term "the government derives its power from the people?" What "exactly" does that mean?

Part of it means the government is powerless to enforce laws without the consent of the people.

That consent is derived from the jury system.

The government can pass all of the laws it wants, but without a willing jury, the government is powerless to enforce those laws.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
I didn't say it couldn't be your choice it just wouldn't be mine, just like smoking isn't risk free I choose not to. However the inofrmation has to be out there so an informed choice can be made. Assertions were made that there were no consequences of raw milk, there is

"The farmer was not harming anyone with raw milk"

Catherine W. Donnelly, Ph.D., a food microbiologist at the University of Vermont, believes that the dangers cancel out any potential nutritional benefits. “Of particular concern is Listeria [a bacterium that results in a foodborne illness, listeriosis], which has a 30 percent mortality rate,” Donnelly warns. “If raw milk is your choice, it’s buyer beware.” When USDA scientists collected raw milk samples from 861 farms in 21 states, nearly a quarter of them contained bacteria linked to human illness, including 5 percent that tested positive for Listeria.
I certainly have no problem with your personal choice. I also don't want contaminated milk and there are potential concerns. So why don't we work to make both options safe? Thats what is done in other places and people aren't dropping dead.
 

JockoJohnson

Golden Member
May 20, 2009
1,402
52
91
But on the other hand why does the government allow tobacco to be sold?
Good question and I haven't seen anyone answer it. It's because the answer is obvious--more money from big tobacco lobbying to keep it legal. I don't think there is a big lobby for the raw milk industry. Some laws are bought to be created or not to be created.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
10,908
214
106
Good question and I haven't seen anyone answer it. It's because the answer is obvious--more money from big tobacco lobbying to keep it legal. I don't think there is a big lobby for the raw milk industry. Some laws are bought to be created or not to be created.
Plus the government makes a crap load from taxing it.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
61,443
14,350
136
Would you rather the jury be a rubber stamp for the government?

Have you ever wondered about the term "the government derives its power from the people?" What "exactly" does that mean?

Part of it means the government is powerless to enforce laws without the consent of the people.

That consent is derived from the jury system.

The government can pass all of the laws it wants, but without a willing jury, the government is powerless to enforce those laws.
Laws that are believed to be un-Constitutional can be challenged. That challenge comes after the trial phase of a case. By practicing jury nullification, the jury has ensured that constitutionality of the law in question will not be challenged as a result of this case so the law stands.

The government can't pass squat without the will of the people as expressed through the election of lawmakers. That your pet policy isn't implemented doesn't mean you didn't have your say (unless you didn't bother to vote, in which case sit down, shut up, and quit bothering the adults).
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
The government can't pass squat without the will of the people as expressed through the election of lawmakers.
The majority of the people were against prohibition, but it was still passed.

Bill Clinton ran on an anti-nafta platform, but flip-flopped after being elected.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
A couple of years ago there was a couple of men in a hotel room that were handling a pistol, they had been drinking, the pistol discharged, the bullet went through the wall where it struck and killed a man in an adjoining room.

http://www.kfdm.com/shared/news/top-stories/stories/kfdm_vid_2237.shtml

It was an accident, the guy did not "purposefully" kill anyone,,. But he was still charged with man slaughter.




Why should an "idea" receive special protection under the law?
Hence the difference between 1st or 2nd degree homicide and manslaughter. If you kill someone with your car, unless there are extenuating circumstances, you're charged with vehicular manslaughter.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,423
614
126
If taxpayers aren't going to be on the hook for any medical expenses due to people drinking, I don't see what the problem is in letting him sell the stuff. Caveat emptor.
how much money was the taxpayer on the hook for this trial?
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Equal protection also calls for equal responsibility.

Why should companies and people have different sets of laws and different punishments?




Would you rather the jury be a rubber stamp for the government?

Have you ever wondered about the term "the government derives its power from the people?" What "exactly" does that mean?

Part of it means the government is powerless to enforce laws without the consent of the people.

That consent is derived from the jury system.

The government can pass all of the laws it wants, but without a willing jury, the government is powerless to enforce those laws.
What makes you think that a jury consisting of 12 random people represents the will of the people? Consent is through the ballot box. If juries do not follow the law, they are dispensing their own justice, regarding of the will of the people. Today it's something you agree with. Tomorrow, it might be something you not only disagree but consider reprehensible. Jury nullification isn't democracy. It's anarchy. No different than vigilantism.
 

JimKiler

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2002
3,434
108
106
Too bad the jurors in the Samsung vs. Apple trial did not know about Jury Nullification. I would have tried to persuade my fellow jurors it was needed on dubious software patents.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS