Judge rules paper money unfair to blind

[Exterous]

Originally posted by: chambersc
You might want to close your parenthesis in your last paragraph, however.

Fixed - thank you

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: RaistlinZ
Ugh.. why do people keep suggesting changing the sizes of all currency?? It's the dumbest idea of them all. Just put durable braile dots on the bills and be done with it. :roll:

Because Braile dots are easily mimicked, could affect cash machines and really CAN'T be durable on money... do you understand how often money is wadded up, tossed around, ran through the washing machine, trampled and folded? Little bumps would not hold up AT ALL.

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: bobdelt
some of these ideas have been so stupid.... just make it different sizes like most countries...

That's the worst idea of the lot. Wallets are a certain size, change machines accept bills of a certain size, money envelopes are a certain size...need I go on? Changing sizes would be the single most expensive thing the government could do and would require everyone in the country to make changes.

Hardly. Either way equipment is going to have to be changed up a bit. You are concerned about wallet size? HAH. I went to Ireland and Scotland in September and not one single bill didn't fit in my wallet just fine, and that's on two different money systems that use two different sizes of bills.

Wallet size was one example of many that have been given. A HUGE amount of currency related items are size specific. Just think about it and you'll come up with dozens, if not hundreds of examples.

Alright, gimme your best example.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: Hammerhead
Just make a small handheld device that reads bills...sort of like how change machines do.
Blind people can just keep it in their pocket and take it along with them

I like the concept of a reader, maybe a step further and bar code the money....retailers could have a bar code reader built into the counter that customers could swipe their money quickly, and perhaps a pocket scanner for locations that haven't upgraded yet.

Just one step further and the money could be plastic, reusuable, and use magnetic readers to determine the value. Oh wait, those are called credit cards.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: Tarrant64
Couldn't we just have different sized bills?

You would have to refit every single vending machine that accepted dollar bills to recognize the different bills sizes and denominations.

My experience with the Euro is that most of their machines don't take any form of paper currency, only coin. Which would make the vending machine people happier in the long run, and then we wouldn't have the infamouse "rejected dollar" situation.

And, as another poster said, most machines only accept $1 bills anyway, so if we kept the $1 bill the same (which, considering the number in circulation would be a bit easier) then it would mostly elimate the problem.

Or MAYBE, just MAYBE vending machines would become a bit less common, and America will realize they don't actually need a soda and bag of chips just because they walked down a hallway or rounded a corner.

 

[Hammerhead]

Changing the size of currency is stupid.
If you are blind and someone is supposed to give you a $100 and gave you a $1 bill. Unless you have other bills in your wallet to compare the size to, there is no way of knowing.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Hammerhead
Changing the size of currency is stupid.
If you are blind and someone is supposed to give you a $100 and gave you a $1 bill. Unless you have other bills in your wallet to compare the size to, there is no way of knowing.

You'd be suprised what your other senses can pick up when you lose one of them.

 

[Hammerhead]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Hammerhead
Changing the size of currency is stupid.
If you are blind and someone is supposed to give you a $100 and gave you a $1 bill. Unless you have other bills in your wallet to compare the size to, there is no way of knowing.

You'd be suprised what your other senses can pick up when you lose one of them.

True, but you talking about having a different size for $1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100. Coins are different because you can have different thicknesses and ridges.

 

[LtPage1]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: dquan97
Judge says Treasury Department is violating the law by keeping all money the same size and feel.
November 28 2006: 6:10 PM EST

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- A federal judge has ruled that the U.S. Treasury Department is violating the law by failing to design and issue currency that is readily distinguishable to blind and visually impaired people.

Judge James Robertson, in a ruling on a suit by the American Council of the Blind, ordered the Treasury to devise a method to tell bills apart.

The judge wrote that the current configuration of paper money violates the Rehabilitation Act's guarantee of "meaningful access."

"It can no longer be successfully argued that a blind person has 'meaningful access' to currency if she cannot accurately identify paper money without assistance," Robertson wrote in his ruling.

He further ruled that finding a solution to the problem would not be an "undue burden" on the government and ordered the Treasury Department to begin working on a solution within 30 days.
The American Council for the Blind has submitted several alternatives, including embossing, holes punched in the paper or using different-sized bills for different denominations.

The Treasury Department had no comment on the ruling.

seriously, does his power reaches the treasury dept. and order them to do something? what if he said that the green on the dollar is bad and the TD must change the color? i dont think he can... but i could be wrong.

A court order is a court order. The day a judge can't order a government agency to comply with the law is the day I either get very militant very quickly or move to Canada.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: Hammerhead
Just make a small handheld device that reads bills...sort of like how change machines do.
Blind people can just keep it in their pocket and take it along with them

I like the concept of a reader, maybe a step further and bar code the money....retailers could have a bar code reader built into the counter that customers could swipe their money quickly, and perhaps a pocket scanner for locations that haven't upgraded yet.

Just one step further and the money could be plastic, reusuable, and use magnetic readers to determine the value. Oh wait, those are called credit cards.

Obviously credit cards are currently widely used by sight-impaired individuals already and the issue with paper money remains.

I wouldn't think it is so much different than the counterfeit<sp?> measures currently being used and constantly improved (perhaps it could also act as a defacto anti-counterfeit measure). It could even be like the tracers for explosives, or even the fibers in the paper and could provide a little more independance for sight-impaired individuals.

I'm not speaking to the issue with the judge btw, only to the issue of sight-impaired folks performing a basic function like counting the money in their wallet, or their change from a purchase, something I do all the time without even a thought about it.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: mugs
I'll give you the first two, but there are still plenty of stores that don't take credit cards, mostly non-chains. What blows my mind is that people are so intent on making a point of NOT accomodating blind people when it is an easy thing to do. That deserves an eye roll. :roll:

Changing the nation's currency isn't an easy thing to do. Every vending machine, every atm, every automated payment machine, every cash register, etc. etc. etc. will become obsolete and have to be replaced. And you think that will be easy?

And for what? When the simplier answer is to have the blind use a credit card. I don't there is a single store, restaurant, market, bar, etc. etc. etc. in my town that doesn't accept credit cards.

Get a freakin' clue, seriously.

The whole world is shifting AWAY from cash. We're moving to credit cards, debit cards, automatic deposits, instant bank transfers, transit systems all moving to swipe cards, I could go on forever with how much people do not need to use cash anymore to get by in life.

So why have you still not given one freakin' arguement why it would be feasible to change the national currency and replace out every piece of equipment in the country that depends on cash being a specific size. Your one arguement saying "it's easy to do" is wrong. Figure out another one.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
This is why I would not pay for stuff myself if I were blind. You can't see what you're getting or what your spending.

It's not the money that's unfair ... sorry judge ... it's the blindness that's unfair.
The whole world is unfair to blind people. That's kind of the whole point of losing sight. It's not called a handicap for nothing.

The judge is retarded.

A blind person can't call a friend every time they go to the store. In my friend's case, he was very independent despite being blind. He could click his way to the store all on his own and buy cigarettes, food, etc.

Naturally, having a disability isn't fair. But are you saying that people with handicaps should just suffer even though we can do things to enhance their quality of life?

Imagine a world that held your opinion... no hearing aids, no ocular implants, no wheelchair ramps, no wheelchairs, no speaking software for computers, etc.

I guess the real root of the issue is the legislation. The Rehabilitation Act may be a bit more at fault here than the judge on second thought. The government should not dictate whether a company should make its facilities, product, or services accessable to those with disabilities (treatment excepted). I have a big problem with the government stepping in and saying "Hey that's not accessable. Make it so!"

It should be up to the company to decide.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Ryan
Seriously - what is wrong with you people? Are you so unhappy with the quality of your own lives, that you have to look down on the blind? Implementing some kind of tactile clue for blind people is cheap and easy to implement, and I'm certain would bring at least more independence to these people. We have a large population that is blind, and this is a feature that would help them. If Canada can successfully implement it - why can't we? What is wrong with this initiative as a whole?

I bet wheel chair ramps must really piss you people off too :roll:

It's the anti-PC attitude of ATOT that I mentioned above. Anything that can be viewed as politically correct is inherently bad.

Not so much anti-PC. I think it is more a reaction against lawmaking by judicial fiat. This could have been implemented by elected officials and I doubt there would be any discussion about it at all. My personal opinion is that the Treasury should have been looking at this 10 years ago when Canada first made moves in this direction with their currency. Their paper money is all uniformly sized but it has been designed to be recognized by reader devices along with some tactile information as well.

 

[waggy]

hmm just set up a goverment bank. they can have the money deposited. they have a bank card that EVERY place of business must tale (at no cost to the store owner).

only problem would be personal transactions. so everyone must carry a small personal reader.

that way we can do away with "cash". everyone would have a goverment backed card to purchase anything! it would be 100% safe and usefull!

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Or blind people could use a credit card.

Which would make it easier for a store to rip them off for even more money - how is a blind person going to know if the person punched in the right amount on the credit card machine? Not to mention there are times when you can't use a credit card.

1) The credit card statement will confirm the amount charged. Blind poeple can't read CC statements anymore than they can read the denomination on bills

2) The credit card company will deny payment to the store if the charge was fraudulent, and certainly fire the employee who rang up the transaction. True enough if you catch it in time and have some proof.

3) Most every store accepts credit cards nowadays. Heck, I get funny looks from some cashiers when I pay in cash, because they're not used to giving out change.

So tell me exactly which part of using credit cards is worse than using cash. The cashier CANNOT steal money from a person in a credit card transaction. They can in a cash transaction. If anyone were to get anything from it, it would be the store owner, not the cashier, which they can't anyways because the credit card company would reverse the charge.

Seriously. :roll:

A responce in bold above . As far as the following:

The cashier CANNOT steal money from a person in a credit card transaction.

Oh yes. The cashier can steal money. Whether it comes from the business owner or the cardholder is another matter. I'm a CPA with clients in the retail and restaurant busineses. They are many ways this can be done, I don't think it's a good idea to detail the the "how" here.

Fern

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: mugs
I'll give you the first two, but there are still plenty of stores that don't take credit cards, mostly non-chains. What blows my mind is that people are so intent on making a point of NOT accomodating blind people when it is an easy thing to do. That deserves an eye roll. :roll:

Changing the nation's currency isn't an easy thing to do. Every vending machine, every atm, every automated payment machine, every cash register, etc. etc. etc. will become obsolete and have to be replaced. And you think that will be easy?

And for what? When the simplier answer is to have the blind use a credit card. I don't there is a single store, restaurant, market, bar, etc. etc. etc. in my town that doesn't accept credit cards.

Get a freakin' clue, seriously.

The whole world is shifting AWAY from cash. We're moving to credit cards, debit cards, automatic deposits, instant bank transfers, transit systems all moving to swipe cards, I could go on forever with how much people do not need to use cash anymore to get by in life.

So why have you still not given one freakin' arguement why it would be feasible to change the national currency and replace out every piece of equipment in the country that depends on cash being a specific size. Your one arguement saying "it's easy to do" is wrong. Figure out another one.

How does implementing BRAILLE into bills prevent them from being accepted by any kind of collection machine?

 

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: mugs
I'll give you the first two, but there are still plenty of stores that don't take credit cards, mostly non-chains. What blows my mind is that people are so intent on making a point of NOT accomodating blind people when it is an easy thing to do. That deserves an eye roll. :roll:

Changing the nation's currency isn't an easy thing to do. Every vending machine, every atm, every automated payment machine, every cash register, etc. etc. etc. will become obsolete and have to be replaced. And you think that will be easy?

And for what? When the simplier answer is to have the blind use a credit card. I don't there is a single store, restaurant, market, bar, etc. etc. etc. in my town that doesn't accept credit cards.

Get a freakin' clue, seriously.

The whole world is shifting AWAY from cash. We're moving to credit cards, debit cards, automatic deposits, instant bank transfers, transit systems all moving to swipe cards, I could go on forever with how much people do not need to use cash anymore to get by in life.

So why have you still not given one freakin' arguement why it would be feasible to change the national currency and replace out every piece of equipment in the country that depends on cash being a specific size. Your one arguement saying "it's easy to do" is wrong. Figure out another one.

What makes you think that adding some braille dots would make all of those machines obsolete? Did vending machines become obsolete when the governement changed the design of money?

Your argument that "it's hard to do" is wrong. Please figure out another one.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: mugs
I'll give you the first two, but there are still plenty of stores that don't take credit cards, mostly non-chains. What blows my mind is that people are so intent on making a point of NOT accomodating blind people when it is an easy thing to do. That deserves an eye roll. :roll:

Changing the nation's currency isn't an easy thing to do. Every vending machine, every atm, every automated payment machine, every cash register, etc. etc. etc. will become obsolete and have to be replaced. And you think that will be easy?

And for what? When the simplier answer is to have the blind use a credit card. I don't there is a single store, restaurant, market, bar, etc. etc. etc. in my town that doesn't accept credit cards.

Get a freakin' clue, seriously.

The whole world is shifting AWAY from cash. We're moving to credit cards, debit cards, automatic deposits, instant bank transfers, transit systems all moving to swipe cards, I could go on forever with how much people do not need to use cash anymore to get by in life.

So why have you still not given one freakin' arguement why it would be feasible to change the national currency and replace out every piece of equipment in the country that depends on cash being a specific size. Your one arguement saying "it's easy to do" is wrong. Figure out another one.

Every vending machine, every ATM, every cash register would have to be changed? Even if we only add a few little embossed dots? No, my argument that it would be easy to do is not wrong, in fact it was the basis for the judge's ruling.

Perhaps you are the one who should get a clue. There are ways to make money more accessible to blind people without changing the size.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: mugs
I'll give you the first two, but there are still plenty of stores that don't take credit cards, mostly non-chains. What blows my mind is that people are so intent on making a point of NOT accomodating blind people when it is an easy thing to do. That deserves an eye roll. :roll:

Changing the nation's currency isn't an easy thing to do. Every vending machine, every atm, every automated payment machine, every cash register, etc. etc. etc. will become obsolete and have to be replaced. And you think that will be easy?

And for what? When the simplier answer is to have the blind use a credit card. I don't there is a single store, restaurant, market, bar, etc. etc. etc. in my town that doesn't accept credit cards.

Get a freakin' clue, seriously.

The whole world is shifting AWAY from cash. We're moving to credit cards, debit cards, automatic deposits, instant bank transfers, transit systems all moving to swipe cards, I could go on forever with how much people do not need to use cash anymore to get by in life.

So why have you still not given one freakin' arguement why it would be feasible to change the national currency and replace out every piece of equipment in the country that depends on cash being a specific size. Your one arguement saying "it's easy to do" is wrong. Figure out another one.

How does implementing BRAILLE into bills prevent them from being accepted by any kind of collection machine?

From my experience, the machines can be very finnicky. I'd imagine having noticable raised bumps on the bills would at the very least require an adjustment.

 

[Hammerhead]

Originally posted by: BigJ
I'd imagine having noticable raised bumps on the bills would at the very least require an adjustment.

I'm sure strippers wouldn't mind

 

[drinkmorejava]

I really don't see why it would be so complicated to put something like a raised pin hole/braille dot into a bill. I suppose I could be horribly mistaken, but unless the bill is essentially falling apart, I think a blind person would have sensitive enough touch to feel the difference. Something like that wouldn't affect vending machines and it's not going to change the appearance of the bill either. I better option for new revisions might be to have a series of textured/raised stripes inset in a similar fashion that the security strips are. If they're the same color, the bills would remain essentially unchanged too.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Fern
Oh yes. The cashier can steal money. Whether it comes from the business owner or the cardholder is another matter. I'm a CPA with clients in the retail and restaurant busineses. They are many ways this can be done, I don't think it's a good idea to detail the the "how" here.

Fern

Yes, I've worked on a POS system that would make it very easy for an employee to use fraudlent credit card transactions as a cover for taking cash out of the register without causing a noticeable difference in net sales. This is at a chain with over 30,000 stores worldwide. Of course most of the employees at that chain aren't smart enough to figure out how to do it.

Originally posted by: BigJ

From my experience, the machines can be very finnicky. I'd imagine having noticable raised bumps on the bills would at the very least require an adjustment.

Vending machines have gotten a lot better at taking bills in the last 10 years. They're a lot more tolerant to defects in bills now.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: BigJ

From my experience, the machines can be very finnicky. I'd imagine having noticable raised bumps on the bills would at the very least require an adjustment.

Vending machines have gotten a lot better at taking bills in the last 10 years. They're a lot more tolerant to defects in bills now.

I'm sure they could make an adjustment. I'm not familiar with the bill scanners in the machines, so I really don't know. Maybe make it only required in government buildings for now, with a transition period?

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: Pacemaker
If people didn't try to rip off blind people every day this wouldn't be needed, but you know some jerk would give a blind guy 3 ones and tell him its three twenties, or the blind guy give someone a hundred dollar bill and they guy tells him it's a one. Really if people could be trusted this wouldn't be needed, but in the end someone will always be a jerk like this.

I'm not going to say "let blind people drive" or stupid crap like that. (it's a nice strawman by the way) But when a blind person can't buy food without worring about getting ripped off, something needs to change.

None of the proposed changes would stop the hypothetical jerk in your post.

Chances are they would. You think some "barista" behind the counter at starbucks would carry around accurately cut and sized slips of fake money for the "just-in-case" chance that a blind person would come and order from them? No.

You think someone who's honor is less than bad might, on-the-spot, take advatage of the fact that a blind person has no convenient* way of knowing how much change in bills he's getting back now? Yes, and it does happen.

* I say "convenient" because while a blind person could ask for change back in all ones, the registers aren't always stocked up like that.

 

[arkcom]

I say use holes. Sure they can be reproduced, but put one hole on the highest value bill and increase them as the value decreases. To put extra holes makes your money less valuable. No machines need to be changed this way. Current bills could even be modified.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: Hammerhead

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Hammerhead
Changing the size of currency is stupid.
If you are blind and someone is supposed to give you a $100 and gave you a $1 bill. Unless you have other bills in your wallet to compare the size to, there is no way of knowing.

You'd be suprised what your other senses can pick up when you lose one of them.

True, but you talking about having a different size for $1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100. Coins are different because you can have different thicknesses and ridges.

It's not really that hard. I picked up on it in the 1 week I was in Ireland and Scotland.

They aren't the same proportions, and some of the bills are just "that much smaller" that you can easily tell what you are grabbing before you even look down in to your wallet.