Judge blocks Obama oil moratorium

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dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
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Good deal.. let the USA takeover the rigs and SINCE that is OUR OIL anyhow... they can payoff any ROYALTIES they owe and go away

Like the USA is a 3rd world shithole and doesn't have the brains or cash to run their own rigs?

This theft needs to end... USA should be pumping those wells for her citizens
 

RedCOMET

Platinum Member
Jul 8, 2002
2,837
0
0
Good deal.. let the USA takeover the rigs and SINCE that is OUR OIL anyhow... they can payoff any ROYALTIES they owe and go away

Like the USA is a 3rd world shithole and doesn't have the brains or cash to run their own rigs?

This theft needs to end... USA should be pumping those wells for her citizens

I hope there was some sarcasm in this post. If the US was to engage in private enterprise, it would be more bloated and in-efficient than if we just let the private sector do it themselves.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Good deal.. let the USA takeover the rigs and SINCE that is OUR OIL anyhow... they can payoff any ROYALTIES they owe and go away

Like the USA is a 3rd world shithole and doesn't have the brains or cash to run their own rigs?

This theft needs to end... USA should be pumping those wells for her citizens

takeover the rigs? As in seize private property? Or is the US going to start its own oil company? Are you just talking about drilling it and extracting it? Or are you talking about surveying, exploration, exploratory wells, building new pipelines (or seizing existing ones)? What about support services, private or public mud contractors, cementers, etc..? Then we get to the big stuff, we gonna do the refining too? What about getting it to market, who sells it? Better yet, if its OURS should we have to pay for it or is the government going to be running a for profit oil company and selling us the final product at market rates (will they then be as evil as big oil???)?

LOL, I can just see the government oil rig with the government roughneck union. Only 8 hours a day of work are permitted with mandatory 30 minute breaks 3 times a day and an hour for lunch. When tripping out of the hole and mud is pouring out of the pipe you disconnected (more like shooting out of the pipe... all over you) then the pumps must be hooked back up to each length of pipe to remove the mud before it can be disconnected (can't have am getting dirty now can ya). And full hazmat suits if you are using oilbased mud, which means you must take 30 minute breaks for every 15 minutes of work. Maybe an air conditioned rig floor? The derrick hand ONLY works in the derrick, he doesn't relieve people on the rig floor or mess with those nasty mud tanks, etc...

It would be funny as hell for a few minutes until the fact that its our tax dollars hard at work sunk in.
 

RedCOMET

Platinum Member
Jul 8, 2002
2,837
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Darwin.. Rough neck union... that gave me a good laugh.

The article /press release below is light on details with regards to the new regulations that have been enacted. Seems crazy that companies are trying to break their contracts after these new regs have been published. Whats going on?

Having the moratorium suspeneded should have prevented this kind of stuff

Chevron Declares Force Majeure on Hercules Jackup

Chevron on June 23 declared force majeure on its contract for Hercules Offshore jackup Hercules 120, saying that it believes the new regulations issued for drilling in the U.S. Gulf of Mexico prevent Chevron from continuing operations involving the rig.

Hercules and Chevron are in discussions to seek a commercial resolution. "If such attempts are ultimately unsuccessful, the Company will, at that time, determine whether to pursue its contractual and legal rights and remedies," Hercules said in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission today.

The Department of Interior and the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management, formerly known as the Minerals Management Service, have issued new regulations for drilling following the Deepwater Horizon incident in the Gulf of Mexico.

The new restrictions on drilling have prompted other producers to declare force majeure on other rigs working in the Gulf. Last week, Apache Corp. declared force majeure for a Rowan Cos., rig it had under contract.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
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Darwin.. Rough neck union... that gave me a good laugh.

The article /press release below is light on details with regards to the new regulations that have been enacted. Seems crazy that companies are trying to break their contracts after these new regs have been published. Whats going on?

Having the moratorium suspeneded should have prevented this kind of stuff

Chevron Declares Force Majeure on Hercules Jackup

Pretend that you owned a rig that cost half a mil a day, has been out of work for over a month (not really sure when they stopped drilling operations, assuming its been a while), has an admin that issued a moratorium, judge overruled it, unknown and unforeseeable new rules that may or may not hinder future drilling operations, your support companies (and there are a ton of companies that support drilling ops as you are aware, big and small) are laying off their entire workforce, and now the admin is appealing and promising a new "clearer" moratorium all due to a big ass accident that is still leaking millions of gallons of oil into the area you are operating in... Oh yeah, that Admin who is hostile towards your current activity controls the regulators (ever had a pissed off OSHA guy on your site? think of the potential for that everyday) and the government in general is currently playing politics with your livelihood. Also pretend that you had other companies/nations that are lining up at your door begging you to sign long term contracts that you can move to immediately and start drilling (IE making money). Just for good measure lets also pretend that not long ago they discovered a field or two that rank amongst the largest fields ever found.

Do you roll the dice with your half mil. a day that the judges ruling will stand up AND a new moratorium won't be issued that halts your operations, for an unknown and potentially long period of time, damn near as soon as you restart them? Or do you take the sure money and work in an environment that the nation whose waters your in are actively seeking your business and you already know the rules and regs (IE your operating costs)?

Those rigs cost money regardless if they are drilling or not. When they aren't making holes in the earth they are losing the company (in this case, YOU) money. THEN throw into the mix future work, even if the ruling stands where is that rigs next hole? How many new permits do you think they are going to be giving out in the near future if the ruling on the moratorium stands? Even if the Admin gets its moratorium, how many new leases and permits do you think will be issued in the next few years? OTOH, the guys lined up at your door are offering long term contracts that will keep you drilling for years to come.

What would YOU do?

I don't like it but it is exactly what I expected, and in fact exactly what I have been saying would happen. This is just the first wave, once the legalities are figured out all of the rest will quickly follow suit. I can't think of many circumstances that would make me want to keep my rig in the Gulf right now with the admins current attitude towards my company in spite of the fact that my company has done no wrong.

Edit: Have you even heard of rigs resuming operations since the judges ruling? I sure as hell wouldn't if it was MY rig until all the legal wrangling was finished and I had the warm and fuzzies that I wouldn't be shut down again in a few days.
 
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RedCOMET

Platinum Member
Jul 8, 2002
2,837
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Darwin. i Know the rigs cost a shit town of money to operate and rent. I usually work on one of Transoceans brand new drill ship as a contractor.

But if shallow water drilling is so safe. then what are these new saftey regs?? i posted a CNN article that talks about the stealth bann.. ie no new permits being issued.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Big Oil made a huge error, and all the fault is on them.

We can ban them forever, and they will be OK, just not, as, OK.

The important thing is that we establish clean energy, nuclear power, now.

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
BTW, when I worked Surveying, down in Pensacola, FL, I worked with some roughnecks...

It'd be pretty odd if he was killed in the explosion.

-John
 

RedCOMET

Platinum Member
Jul 8, 2002
2,837
0
0
Some where roughnecks.. crane operator.. a mud engineer....

I have a memorial pamphlet-eqsue type thing at home that Transocean published.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Big Oil made a huge error, and all the fault is on them.

I disagree. A single "big oil" company made a huge error (that was completely authorized by the US Government btw, still doesn't let them off the hook in anyway shape or form). You can argue that their subcontractors made some errors as well, but a single company was writing the checks and giving the orders that lead to this disaster.

We can ban them forever, and they will be OK, just not, as, OK.
They will be just as ok, if not better, in a short time. They may take a bump in the very short term but other countries are very serious about expanding their oil production. The vast majority of the worlds deep water fields, potentially more oil than current known reserves, hasn't been explored. A ton of countries have already begun exploring, like Brazil and their latest find. It won't be the last of that magnitude by a long shot. Those countries will welcome big oil with open arms. Granted, they like drilling here because its closer to their buyer but these other countries will get the infrastructure up and running to sell it to us in no time.

The only real difference will be who gets the tax revenue and the jobs. Thats it. Those rig owners are not the least bit concerned over the lack of work. The people that work on them are, the companies that support them are, the companies that support those companies are, but big oil in general? lol, we are still the dope fiend and they are still the dope man, nothing has changed and nothing will change in the next decade or 2 and thats only if we get real serious. In the meantime we will still buy their oil, just coming from a different place and delivered by tanker instead of pipeline. Hell, they are probably better off because our "attitude" towards them is constantly changing.

The important thing is that we establish clean energy, nuclear power, now.

-John

Agreed, we also desperately need a new grid if we are to move from oil based fuels for transportation to electricity. All of that is going to take quite a while though and in the meantime and during the transition we are going to be using even more oil than we do today. Like I said, the only question is where we get it and who reaps the benefits of our demand but the demand is simply not debatable will not be for quite a while.

Then you have all the other potential consequences that come along with us relying on multiple nations, some of which are quite hostile towards us, for the lifeblood of our economy. I keep asking, why do you really think we are in the mid east? Do you really think we like them or give that much of a shit about them? Nope, we are there to protect ourselves from economical collapse. 1 million bbls a day of additional domestic production gets us off of Saudi oil, 2 million bbls a day of additional domestic production gets us off ME oil all together. Instead, we are intentionally putting ourselves in a position that we can be forced into outright war, that we otherwise wouldn't give two shits about, to protect our economy.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
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Here's a quote from the Wall Street Journal piece: "Having had his drilling moratorium declared illegal by a federal judge and now his drilling commission rebuked by Democrats, Mr. Obama might want to liberate himself from Carol Browner and other antidrilling White House advisers before they cause him greater political damage." Carol Browner is at the EPA, also in the Clinton-Gore administration -- and she is a full-fledged total wacko leftist environmentalist nutcase.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
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Here's a quote from the Wall Street Journal piece: "Having had his drilling moratorium declared illegal by a federal judge and now his drilling commission rebuked by Democrats, Mr. Obama might want to liberate himself from Carol Browner and other antidrilling White House advisers before they cause him greater political damage." Carol Browner is at the EPA, also in the Clinton-Gore administration -- and she is a full-fledged total wacko leftist environmentalist nutcase.

Because as we all know, drilling never causes any negative environmental impacts. I think every person who ever said "Drill, Baby, Drill" and meant it should be force-ably shipped to the Gulf and made to clean up that mess.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,949
133
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Because as we all know, drilling never causes any negative environmental impacts. I think every person who ever said "Drill, Baby, Drill" and meant it should be force-ably shipped to the Gulf and made to clean up that mess.


and the eco-KOOKS that encouraged legislation that resulted in the rigs farther away from shore should be thrown into a chipper and made into a compost pile.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
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and the eco-KOOKS that encouraged legislation that resulted in the rigs farther away from shore should be thrown into a chipper and made into a compost pile.
LAWLZ... riiight. Because oil companies won't drill where there is oil.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
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your as thick as two bricks. They can't drill where reckless legislation won't allow drilling.

Honestly it takes a special type of ignorance to argue that deregulating this industry would prevent accidents. They would simply occur closer to shore. Companies go where the oil is, do you honestly believe BP wouldn't have gone after this much petroleum anyway? Drilling closer to shore also hurts local economies that depend on tourism, though I suppose that doesn't really matter anymore.

It amazes me that this type of disaster is somehow the governments fault. It was an irresponsible company operating without an adequate safety plan coupled with a failure at the regulatory agency. People want government out of their lives, then the second disaster strikes due to a corporations negligence they expect the federal government to swoop in, part the seas, and end it immediately. Perhaps if these companies acted responsibly in the first place we wouldn't even need the damn non-functioning regulatory bureaucracy...

At the end of the day, drilling does basically nothing to address our long term energy needs. It's simply a waste of time and money, and now we're facing an environmental catastrophe that will rob the Gulf states of billions of dollars during a prolonged recession.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Honestly it takes a special type of ignorance to argue that deregulating this industry would prevent accidents. They would simply occur closer to shore.

If this would have happened closer to shore it would have been in shallower water which would have made capping the well immensely easier.

Companies go where the oil is, do you honestly believe BP wouldn't have gone after this much petroleum anyway?

Your half right. Companies search for oil where the government tells them they can. We haven't the foggiest idea how much oil we really have because so much land is off limits. No business in their right minds would spend millions upon millions exploring for oil, that they can't verify with exploratory wells, in areas that are and likely will be off limits. With that said, they would have likely went after this field anyway.

Drilling closer to shore also hurts local economies that depend on tourism, though I suppose that doesn't really matter anymore.

No it doesn't. An oil spill hurts tourism but the mere act of drilling closer to shore does not. Matter of fact it helps in a lot of areas, rigs are some of the best fishing locations you can find.

It amazes me that this type of disaster is somehow the governments fault.

While the Feds where complicit the spill is in no way their fault. This one is on BP. The cleanup and mitigation efforts on the other hand have been royally fucked up by the feds and that fact is true to this day.

People want government out of their lives, then the second disaster strikes due to a corporations negligence they expect the federal government to swoop in, part the seas, and end it immediately.

At this point we would be happy with the Feds packing their shit up and going home. Just get the fuck out of the way because that is all they are doing right now.
Perhaps if these companies acted responsibly in the first place we wouldn't even need the damn non-functioning regulatory bureaucracy...

At the end of the day, drilling does basically nothing to address our long term energy needs. It's simply a waste of time and money, and now we're facing an environmental catastrophe that will rob the Gulf states of billions of dollars during a prolonged recession.


You are stuck on stupid. What do we do about our near and mid-term energy needs? It will take 2 decades (if we actually try hard) to significantly reduce our oil usage. You are perfectly willing to get us drug into another war, spend billions upon billions in military spending protecting our foreign supply because if it goes away for even the slightest of time we are economically fucked. Not hurt and not a recession like we are in, we are talking deep depression times. 2 million barrels a day of additional domestic production gets us off of mid east oil altogether, 1 million gets us off the Saudi's tit. Until such time as that happens, we will have an extremely large military presence in the Mid East and our economy will hinge on countries completely out of our control not doing stupid shit. Is that really your "plan"?

Then there is the entire loss of revenue (local, state and Fed) as well as a shit ton of jobs while we send even more money overseas often to people who don't particularly care for us. Really, thats your brilliant plan? Or maybe the magic oil fairy is going to bridge the gap between mid-term energy needs and long term?

I haven't even touched on the issue of increased tanker traffic and its potential threat.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
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Last time I checked, it wasn't the federal governments job to swoop in and clean up after an oil company (or any company) fucks up. We aren't Venezuela. They have neither the equipment nor technical expertise, and it shouldn't be the governments job to "bail out" a private company. BP should be made to pay for everything, and then some.

We do not get the majority of our oil from the Middle East, not even close. A great deal is made domestically, and of foreign production our biggest provider is Canada. So no, wasting time in the Middle East isn't a part of my plan, but I'm sure the defense contractors really like the fact that most Americans think it's a necessity that we get oil there.

I also disagree that being closer to shore does anything to make it easier to cap an oil spill such as this. It doesn't. Hell, there was a massive spill off the coast of Mexico in 1979 in water that was "only" 160 feet deep.

I'm hardly an environmental nut either, I believe strongly that we should be building nuclear power.

However, the fundamental flaw with your thinking is that we need to produce more energy. We don't, the real energy savings would come conserving more of what we already produce. Our energy transmission system is a cluster fuck, especially in the northeast, the inefficiency in our grid could easily make up the difference if we updated the god damn thing. Not to mention that individual citizens waste a tremendous amount of power each day in this country, and we could more significantly reduce our demand if we simply stopped pissing so much of it away.

Personally, that's why I support something similar to cap and trade, though not necessarily the bill in the House. We need to change the way our citizens use energy, and hitting them in the wallet is a good way to get people's attention.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Last time I checked, it wasn't the federal governments job to swoop in and clean up after an oil company (or any company) fucks up.

You should check again. Laws currently on the books give the Feds authority to take over cleanup operations. Furthermore, you do not sit back and watch an entity continually fuck up for months while the entire gulf coast gets ruined. Perhaps you think the Feds should not be involved in matters of national security? Again, you are stuck on stupid. When the private company isn't getting it done the Feds are supposed to step in and do it for them and then send them the bill.
We aren't Venezuela.
No we aren't and I fail to see your point. Are you saying that we need to be Venezuala in order to protect our coast and the economies of several states after a private company fucks up (while making said private company pay for it of course)? Really?

They have neither the equipment nor technical expertise, and it shouldn't be the governments job to "bail out" a private company. BP should be made to pay for everything, and then some.

Again, no one is talking about a bailout. We are talking about leadership. Furthermore, not only have the Feds fucked up what they say they are in charge in (but no one else can tell) they are actually obstructing the cleanup and mitigation efforts. Wanna defend that? Or is it your argument that the Feds should be obstructing cleanup efforts that the State is doing on their own? It sounds like you think the Coast Guard shouldn't be involved at all and at this point I agree, tell them and the COE and the EPA to pack their shit and go back to Washington. I am sure there is all kinds of paper for them to push up there.

We do not get the majority of our oil from the Middle East, not even close. A great deal is made domestically, and of foreign production our biggest provider is Canada. So no, wasting time in the Middle East isn't a part of my plan, but I'm sure the defense contractors really like the fact that most Americans think it's a necessity that we get oil there.

Lol, so now you know a bit about where we get our oil eh? Do a quick google search did ya? So tell me please, where do we replace the 2,000,000 barrels a day that we currently import from the middle east? Who has it for sale and is willing and able to sell it to us? Go ahead, I am really looking forward to your answer on that one. Of course you probably think that we would do just fine if we lost even a small percentage of our current oil supply don't you? Domestic production will start falling off if you get your way, Mexico (our 2nd biggest provider) might start reducing exports as well. I am not sure about Canada's future outlook but unless they are actively pursuing new wells you can expect their exports to drop off as well.

BTW, you do know that a growing economy will use more energy right? So IF the economy grows at the rate the current admin is predicting we will be using much more oil in 10 years. As a matter of fact, energy usage is an excellent gauge of economic activity. So I will ask again, where do we get it from over the next 2 decades?

I also disagree that being closer to shore does anything to make it easier to cap an oil spill such as this. It doesn't. Hell, there was a massive spill off the coast of Mexico in 1979 in water that was "only" 160 feet deep.
Everybody that knows anything about the subject strongly disagrees with you. I won't waste anymore time on that point.

I'm hardly an environmental nut either, I believe strongly that we should be building nuclear power.
Hey, we agree on something.

However, the fundamental flaw with your thinking is that we need to produce more energy. We don't, the real energy savings would come conserving more of what we already produce.

A drop in the bucket. Even if it was significant though, which it wouldn't be, it would not be able to keep up with our projected economic increases and population growth. Sorry bub, conservation is great and there are a lot of common sense things we can do to use less energy and get the same end results but they will do nothing about how much oil we will require in the near to mid term. Again, ANY actual savings will be dwarfed by the increase in demand.

Our energy transmission system is a cluster fuck, especially in the northeast, the inefficiency in our grid could easily make up the difference if we updated the god damn thing.
I'll be damned, thats two things we agree on. I thought the stimulus bill should have been spent on the grid but it wasn't. Got a spare trillion laying around?

Not to mention that individual citizens waste a tremendous amount of power each day in this country, and we could more significantly reduce our demand if we simply stopped pissing so much of it away.
Good luck with that. You won't get the end consumer to reduce their usage without significantly increasing costs, that would literally make me a millionaire overnight and even I think its a bad idea. Even worse is that would destroy the poor and lower middle class (the pain gets less as you move up the chain) and it puts even greater costs on American produced goods (might be a non-issue, not sure if we have anymore at this point).
Personally, that's why I support something similar to cap and trade, though not necessarily the bill in the House. We need to change the way our citizens use energy, and hitting them in the wallet is a good way to get people's attention.

I have yet to see a good way to do that. Like I said, the more you increase the cost of energy the more money I make. You see, I actually put my money where my mouth is. I make a living off of renewable energy and I am what you would call a "true believer". Unfortunately, I also know the reality of the situation and the reality is we will continue to use more oil than we did yesterday assuming the economy continues to grow. This will be a fact for at least a decade and more likely 2 decades or more. The only question is where we get the oil from and who benefits.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I_oil_spill

Water was only 160 feet deep and they couldn't stop this one.

People should try and edumecate themselves before posting 110% pure crap.

It was kinda 30 years ago too.

It is vastly easier to control a well that you can actually get to than one you have to send robots 5000' down to even view what is going on. This is really common sense stuff Dave. We could have been containing most of the oil coming from the well a long time ago had it been in shallow water. I could explain why but why bother.

BTW, did you know it is harder to fix a robot on the moon than the same robot on earth? Why is that?
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
I've known about the sources of our oil for a long time, which is why I don't buy into the hype that the only reason we go to war in the ME is for oil. I fail to see logic to the point you are trying to make. It's almost as if YOU believe that we can replace the 2 million barrels we are taking in from the ME by expanding drilling overnight, or in any reasonably short period of time. Minimum, it would take five years, and I'd be willing to bet its closer to ten. Even if we could get the petroleum, we don't have the capacity to actually refine it domestically into gasoline or anything else we need.


In order to be able to do so, we'd need to spend a lot of money and resources. I for one believe that the time and resources would be better spent on working towards a sustainable long term solution. We could spend the next 20 years actually fixing the problem long term, or we can pursue a course which does little to address our long term needs.

I have no problem with the federal government preparing itself for and assisting when natural disasters occur. Venezuela's government controls it's oil industry, it makes sense for them to be able to fix an oil disaster. I do have a problem when the expectation is that the government will step in to save the country from a disaster caused by a private enterprise.

I'm not talking about a "bail out" in a financial sense, but one in terms of responsibility. The federal government stepping in every time something like this occurs gives companies an incentive to NOT be safe, since they know big brother will come fix everything. It's a waste of taxpayer resources, those companies should be expected to be safe and follow proper procedures, as well as have methods to respond in case of an emergency disaster situation. Pardon me, but I believe this is the responsibility that I constantly hear a certain political party blabbering about.

It's not just the oil industry I'm talking about either, you could drain the entire federal budget "preparing" for these types of incidents and at the end of the day the one thing you didn't prepare for would happen. Which then allows individuals such as yourself blame the federal government, instead of the true culprit, which is 100% BP and it's partners.

Smarter energy consumption and an updated grid would hardly be a "drop" in the bucket, but I agree that getting it to happen is hard. I just don't agree that it's really any harder than producing more energy. Last time I checked, we lost around 8% of our energy through poor transmission alone. Not to mention an updated grid makes renewable sources like wind/solar much more viable.

As for the stimulus bill, there is a reason a lot of liberals are pissed that it didn't include more infrastructure spending. Instead Congress and the President decided to try and win a few Republican votes by spending over 40% of it on "tax credits," money that could have utilized on much more important long term projects.

For what it's worth, I know a little about power transmission, as I had planned to be a power engineer prior to getting my diagnosis with cancer. I've got four years of electrical engineering education, so even though most of it fluttered away in a chemo-induced haze, I know a small bit of what I'm talking about (very small).
 
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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
It was kinda 30 years ago too.

It is vastly easier to control a well that you can actually get to than one you have to send robots 5000' down to even view what is going on. This is really common sense stuff Dave. We could have been containing most of the oil coming from the well a long time ago had it been in shallow water. I could explain why but why bother.

BTW, did you know it is harder to fix a robot on the moon than the same robot on earth? Why is that?

If it's so easy why are you not there shutting it off?

If it's so easy how come they haven't been able to shut it down?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,446
7,508
136
I hope there was some sarcasm in this post. If the US was to engage in private enterprise, it would be more bloated and in-efficient than if we just let the private sector do it themselves.

There is no private sector in a communist's ideal world.