John Sununu says Powell endorsed Obama because he is black.

[Jhhnn]

Meaningless as in without meaning. It ignores the massive increase in black voters when a black man was on the ballot for president via a major political party.

Personally, if I was a black man and a black man had a real chance of winning the presidency, I would have voted for him for that reason alone too. I would have done it to show the young blacks that there is no longer anything they cannot do.

Massive? The numbers say it's significant, not massive-

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/us/politics/21vote.html

Greater participation by minorities & younger voters obviously scares the piss out of older white conservatives, even though it is a more honest representation of the population.

Get used to it. If Repubs' views actually represented the views of more Americans, they'd win more elections the honest way, wouldn't have to resort to voter suppression tactics.

Massive participation would lead to massive Repub defeat, just because there aren't that many blind zealots to overcome majority sentiment. You already know that, of course. Everybody voting is the most frightening thing that repub strategists could ever confront.

 

[cybrsage]

Your link says this:

2008 Surge in Black Voters Nearly Erased Racial Gap

In last year’s presidential election, younger blacks voted in greater proportions than whites for the first time and black women turned out at a higher rate than any other racial, ethnic and gender group, a census analysis released Monday confirmed.

That is massive.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Meaningless as in untrue, or meaningless as in you don't want to see it?

Meaningless as in statistically invalid. If I must explain what ought to be plain, someone claims X is true. You respond with an independent variable Y, and use it to refute the claim. Either one of you MAY be correct, but neither one has given a direct account of Z, butclaim correctness based on inference. Your mistake is refuting a claim by making a non provable assertion. I can explain a sound basis on which to evaluate truth in this matter, but as I have not seen it done it appears a correct understanding is the last thing wanted by either side.

 

[Jhhnn]

Your link says this:




That is massive.

Put it in whatever terms you want- Blacks have succeeded in catching up, that's all. I hope it actually becomes massive, to the place where over 90% of eligible Americans actually vote, crushing Repubs.

Horrifying, huh? That's because indoctrinated right wing zealotry of a minority can't win against a true majority of Americans.

I want everybody to vote, unlike the leaders of your Tribe, because I actually believe in America, and in egalitarian democracy.

 

[cybrsage]

Put it in whatever terms you want- Blacks have succeeded in catching up, that's all. I hope it actually becomes massive, to the place where over 90% of eligible Americans actually vote, crushing Repubs.

Are you actually admitting to being wrong about something?

I want everybody to vote, unlike the leaders of your Tribe, because I actually believe in America, and in egalitarian democracy.

Yes, we know. You want the dead and illegals to vote. You constantly remind us of this. You are angry that people want to prevent the dead and illegals from voting. We get it.

What tribe am I from, btw?

 

[Moonbeam]

Are you actually admitting to being wrong about something?




Yes, we know. You want the dead and illegals to vote. You constantly remind us of this. You are angry that people want to prevent the dead and illegals from voting. We get it.

What tribe am I from, btw?

OH NOZERS, not back to this scum bag denial of the real intent of voter suppression again. There's no depth of depravity to which you will not sink, the party of morally bankrupt pigs.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

To give a more direct analogy, I submit Newton's Second law of motion.

Given F = MA and A is 9.8 m/sec^2, solve for M.

 

[Jhhnn]

Duh. Of course Sununu is right, I'm sure it played a major part in it. Lets not be naive and pretend that the bummer getting 97% of the vote from one group is just a happy little coincidence. It might not be PC to say, but the truth is the truth.

It must be comforting to entertain such delusions. Blacks have voted overwhelmingly for Democratic presidential candidates for a very long time-

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/04/blacks-and-the-democratic-party/

Meaningless as in statistically invalid. If I must explain what ought to be plain, someone claims X is true. You respond with an independent variable Y, and use it to refute the claim. Either one of you MAY be correct, but neither one has given a direct account of Z, butclaim correctness based on inference. Your mistake is refuting a claim by making a non provable assertion. I can explain a sound basis on which to evaluate truth in this matter, but as I have not seen it done it appears a correct understanding is the last thing wanted by either side.

Let's review. Poker guy made an assertion about 97% of blacks voting for Obama because Obama is black. I pointed out that blacks have overwhelmingly voted for Dems since LBJ, offered graphical proof. Their support for Dems is historically ~90%.

So we're really only talking about maybe 7% of black voters, an increase in black voters, aren't we? Voters who turned out for Obama because he's black & because they perceived him to be more liberal than he actually is, right? The other 90% just kept on doing what they've been doing for nearly 50 years, voting for the Democrat.

If we concoct various hypothetical scenarios, like Cain vs some theoretical white progressive, I doubt we'd see Black voters switch en masse to vote for ol' Herman- do you? Of course not.

The original contention that Powell endorsed Obama just because they're both black is, was and always will be slanderous, an exercise in attributing reverse racism where none exists. If Powell did, indeed, harbor such sentiments, he'd never have attained his place in the Army, the Repub party or in the Bush admin.

Obviously, that's not necessarily true for every black person in this country, or for the white majority, either.

If non-black racists outnumber black racists 8:1, then Sununu will obviously pander to the larger number, his natural demographic in the first place. Which is exactly what he's done.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes, we know. You want the dead and illegals to vote. You constantly remind us of this. You are angry that people want to prevent the dead and illegals from voting. We get it.

Quote me on that, Troll.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Let's review. Poker guy made an assertion about 97% of blacks voting for Obama because Obama is black. I pointed out that blacks have overwhelmingly voted for Dems since LBJ, offered graphical proof. Their support for Dems is historically ~90%.

So we're really only talking about maybe 7% of black voters, an increase in black voters, aren't we? Voters who turned out for Obama because he's black & because they perceived him to be more liberal than he actually is, right? The other 90% just kept on doing what they've been doing for nearly 50 years, voting for the Democrat.

If we concoct various hypothetical scenarios, like Cain vs some theoretical white progressive, I doubt we'd see Black voters switch en masse to vote for ol' Herman- do you? Of course not.

The original contention that Powell endorsed Obama just because they're both black is, was and always will be slanderous, an exercise in attributing reverse racism where none exists. If Powell did, indeed, harbor such sentiments, he'd never have attained his place in the Army, the Repub party or in the Bush admin.

Obviously, that's not necessarily true for every black person in this country, or for the white majority, either.

If non-black racists outnumber black racists 8:1, then Sununu will obviously pander to the larger number, his natural demographic in the first place. Which is exactly what he's done.

First, if I have not made it clear, I do not believe that powell is doing as Sununu suggests.

Second, it is an incontrovertible fact that blacks overwhelmingly vote black.

Third, it is also undeniable that blacks also vastly prefer Dem candidates.

I don't think there can be a strong counterclaim against my last two claims.

I also think you would find that the validity of the causality claims are often based on one or other statement.

I submit that there is no causally valid data presented in either case. One could make inferences, however to draw a valid conclusion one would have to eliminate a variable. I submit an analysis of primary voting within a party over time where one candidate is white and the other black would be superior in obtaining an informed answer.

This argument comes up often enough that if a resolution were wanted we'd have performed this exercise already. Curiously, it seems that there is a lack of data in this regard, leaving it to appear as a purposely open question.

That's it- people want to make claims unencumbered by relevant data, and I am not singling you out but those who claim what you reject as well for the same reasons.

 

[Jhhnn]

Second, it is an incontrovertible fact that blacks overwhelmingly vote black.

Hogwash. Explain Alan Keyes, and his repeated thumpings at the hands of white Dems & a crushing defeat at the hands of Obama-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5002771_did-barack-obama-become-senator.html

Explain Alan West's lack of appeal to black voters, and Repubs' using him to reach out to black voters-

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/05/dont_trust_allen_west_with_your_black_outreach/

Oh, yeh, explain Romney going out of his way to get boos at his NAACP speech, effectively pandering to white racism...

 

[nageov3t]

did Powell endorse John Kerry or any other Democratic president before Obama? I don't think Republican policies have changed at all in the last 10-15 years...

 

[TheDev]

This guy seems like some rambling drunk that you would meet at some shady bar at 2am. What the hell is he doing in charge of the Romney campaign?

 

[Jhhnn]

This guy seems like some rambling drunk that you would meet at some shady bar at 2am. What the hell is he doing in charge of the Romney campaign?

He's a dyed in the wool Neocon, a veteran operative & mouthpiece for Republicanism-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_H._Sununu

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Hogwash. Explain Alan Keyes, and his repeated thumpings at the hands of white Dems & a crushing defeat at the hands of Obama-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5002771_did-barack-obama-become-senator.html

Explain Alan West's lack of appeal to black voters, and Repubs' using him to reach out to black voters-

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/05/dont_trust_allen_west_with_your_black_outreach/

Oh, yeh, explain Romney going out of his way to get boos at his NAACP speech, effectively pandering to white racism...

Why in the world should I address your non response to my point?

Your contention then is that an examination of voting patterns of blacks demonstrates that they vote for blacks and whites equally. OK, so there ya go. Feel better?

 

[nehalem256]

Hogwash. Explain Alan Keyes, and his repeated thumpings at the hands of white Dems & a crushing defeat at the hands of Obama-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5002771_did-barack-obama-become-senator.html

Explain Alan West's lack of appeal to black voters, and Repubs' using him to reach out to black voters-

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/05/dont_trust_allen_west_with_your_black_outreach/

Do I really need to explain to you why blacks voting for Obama over Keyes is not in any way evidence the black people will not vote for a black candidate because he is black?

Oh, yeh, explain Romney going out of his way to get boos at his NAACP speech, effectively pandering to white racism...

Evidence he did that?

And even assuming it was true. Would you claim that Obama going out of his way to get boos at a KKK meeting is effectively pandering to black racism?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Do I really need to explain to you why blacks voting for Obama over Keyes is not in any way evidence the black people will not vote for a black candidate because he is black?




Evidence he did that?

And even assuming it was true. Would you claim that Obama going out of his way to get boos at a KKK meeting is effectively pandering to black racism?

I think he needs to call the pollsters and tell them things like this are a lie.

There cannot be a difference because of West.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why in the world should I address your non response to my point?

Your contention then is that an examination of voting patterns of blacks demonstrates that they vote for blacks and whites equally. OK, so there ya go. Feel better?

I never made that contention.

The contention to be supported is your own, not mine, that blacks vote overwhelmingly for blacks because they're black.

My own supported contention all along has been that blacks have voted overwhelmingly for Democratic presidential candidates, regardless of race, since LBJ, and that any tendency to vote for Obama simply because he's black are overblown, at best. He started out with a 90% base among black voters going in, for reasons not related to Obama's race.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The contention to be supported is your own, not mine, that blacks vote overwhelmingly for blacks because they're black.

Really?
Please quote where I said precisely that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Really?
Please quote where I said precisely that.

Pardon me for perhaps reading a little too much into what you actually said, which was-

[

Second, it is an incontrovertible fact that blacks overwhelmingly vote black.

That statement remains unsubstantiated.

 

[Lemon law]

Please explain to us Hayabusa, where you come up with the statement "Second, it is an incontrovertible fact that blacks overwhelmingly vote black."

By that reasoning, blacks should have voted overwhelmingly for the GOP in 2004 and 2008. As GWB elevated blacks like Kindaseezy Rice and Clarence Thomas to high Government roles. GWB also had black luminaries like Colin Powell and JC Watts on his side too. But in the case of the latter two, JC Watts got a little tired or being the only black prop at the once every 4 year GOP convention then being hauled off the a warehouse for the remaining 207 weeks. As for Colin Powell, GWB shamelessly sucked every bit of Colin Powell integrity out of him and then hung him out to dry as GWB fired Colin in his second terms. After all, one good apple like Powell can spoil a whole bushel of rotten apples.

Got any more tall tales and canards to tell us Hayabusa.

 

[Schmide]

Meaningless as in statistically invalid. If I must explain what ought to be plain, someone claims X is true. You respond with an independent variable Y, and use it to refute the claim. Either one of you MAY be correct, but neither one has given a direct account of Z, butclaim correctness based on inference. Your mistake is refuting a claim by making a non provable assertion. I can explain a sound basis on which to evaluate truth in this matter, but as I have not seen it done it appears a correct understanding is the last thing wanted by either side.

To give a more direct analogy, I submit Newton's Second law of motion.

Given F = MA and A is 9.8 m/sec^2, solve for M.

WTF are you getting at??? Are you just trying to muddy the waters?

A train leaves a station on MLK's birthday...

Edit: BTW M=F/9.8m/s^2 solved.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I mostly agree with Hayabusa here.

It's impossible to control for all of the variables to know for sure how many blacks vote for Obama based on race versus other factors. However, there's plenty of information to suggest that many of them are -- just as members of all minorities and specialty groups tend to support candidates of those groups.

It is true that blacks mostly vote Democrat. But in 2008 Obama got staggeringly high percentages of black voters during the primaries, when he was running against someone with very similar policy positions, who was the wife of a man who was at that time jokingly called the "first black president". There are arguments to be made that Hillary Clinton messed up on the black vote to some extent, but it was going to be very lopsided towards Obama regardless.

All of this, of course, is not to say that we know what percentage of blacks voted for Obama based on his skin color, nor what any individual did. People like Poker Guy are simply bigots, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Moonbeam]

Racism is a perfect form of bigotry and it is disgusting, evil, and small, practiced by people who are inferior and want others to feel that way. It is perfect because when practiced for years and years on some other people, they eventually go insane and want to get even. Then the racists can point at the folk they have ruined and say, see how inferior they are? In this way they protect themselves from the truth of their dirty filthy ways. They create the reality that they fear. The Jews have done the same thing to the Palestinians and now visa versa. The monsters we see are ourselves.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I mostly agree with Hayabusa here.

It's impossible to control for all of the variables to know for sure how many blacks vote for Obama based on race versus other factors. However, there's plenty of information to suggest that many of them are -- just as members of all minorities and specialty groups tend to support candidates of those groups.

It is true that blacks mostly vote Democrat. But in 2008 Obama got staggeringly high percentages of black voters during the primaries, when he was running against someone with very similar policy positions, who was the wife of a man who was at that time jokingly called the "first black president". There are arguments to be made that Hillary Clinton messed up on the black vote to some extent, but it was going to be very lopsided towards Obama regardless.

All of this, of course, is not to say that we know what percentage of blacks voted for Obama based on his skin color, nor what any individual did. People like Poker Guy are simply bigots, nothing more, nothing less.

The curious thing is how people respond to what they wish I had said, which is in fact that one cannot draw firm conclusions from the data provided. I confused someone by posing an equation and asking that it be solved, but it is impossible because only one of three values is given. I submit no variables are racist.

It's simply impossible to determine from what has been presented why people, in this case blacks as a statistically significant group, do what they do. The "variables" don't matter and if one substitutes white or Asian or whatever the methodology of analysis would hold.

Truthfully I don't really care of minorities vote for minorities over others because it is the history of all nations, ours being no exception, that they've had it harder than the majority and may be inclined to select those who think may have had common experiences and would be inclined to understand and act appropriately. Is that the explanation then? I don't know because that's supposition, but I don't consider it "racist" if true. I really don't care if it's not either except that if faced with a question I'd like an honest and true answer. Truth isn't racist either.

I gave a solution on how to determine if blacks prefer blacks by going back and eliminating party and compensating for personality preferences by examining results over time. Seriously, how hard is that to understand? Still, we come back to "why" if there is a difference, and if not the question is settled. People seem to fear the resolution whatever it might be but as I have been saying the result is not itself automatically indicative of anything. I gave an example of why one might identify with someone which involves race, but not because of automatic loyalty, but a sense of a greater chance of common experience. Are people frightened of that too? Or scared if not?

We're such a childish society when we cling to denial and invoke taboo when trying to understand the "why" of things. I prefer to ignore that and ask questions, but there's always a risk of being tagged something or other.

Good thing I don't care 😀