what's your definition of middle class? Seriously...you think 6 figures, ANYWHERE is middle class? If you can't live a life of semi-luxury with a 6 figure salary you need to seriously re-evaluate your budget.
what's your definition of middle class? Seriously...you think 6 figures, ANYWHERE is middle class? If you can't live a life of semi-luxury with a 6 figure salary you need to seriously re-evaluate your budget.
From this article. It's a very generalized figure and it's from 2005, but we're talking pretty generalized anyway. It said the average rent in 2005 was $940, so I figure in 2008 somewhere around $1000 is pretty close.
What's the argument though, really? You're easily middle class in NYC making $100,000. That's simply a fact.
- Oct 10, 2000
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The same article says average rent in NYC is 2400 a month (that's for all of nyc, not just manhattan), average manhattan rent is ~3000 link
So you're going from 12K annual to 36K, now figure in city tax, progressive tax rate and cost of food and you'll see why you can command 6figure salary.
But I agree, 6figures IS middle class in manhattan. I was arguing trolls like dmcowen who went on a nutty hyperbole saying that I hate middle class (apprently i hate meself).
I never said you couldn't command 6 figures. I'm still only saying that your original claim to not be middle class making 6 figures is incorrect.
EDIT: And no, middle class does not compare you to your peers. Again, if I make $50,000 where I live today and then suddenly move to La Jolla where the median income is probably north of $200,000 (I'm guessing) I don't suddenly become lower class. I just became a middle class person living in a rich area.
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
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You were making six figures, spending $15,600 a year on rent and transportion, maybe a couple hundred on bills... Leaving you with how much money?
You were way way way above the median income in NYC, so I don't get how you can claim you weren't middle class, when it's obvious you were upper class. Or is it that living in a rich area makes a rich person middle class??
Whatever, that's beside the point. You make your living not by producing anything, but by "analysing" the market right? So where does your sense of entitlement come from that makes you believe you shouldn't pay more for the functioning of a state that facilitates your income?
Why are you so concerned about being "middle class" or higher anyways? Why does comparing yourself and your income to the income of others important to you? The only thing that really matters should be how comfortable and happy you are with your current state of being regardless of income. Make no mistake that money often plays a large role with such a thing, but what class you are considered really doesn't say much because it is nothing more than a comparison between others rather than how you feel about your own life. You make enough money to live very comfortably in the vast majority of places in the US. You make enough to go to any of these places and be considered at least middle class and most likely upper middle class so in a sense you can have your cake and eat it to should you choose to do so.
Maybe I am incorrect and if so then I apologize, but it sounds like you are justifying your happiness and quality of life by the income of others. Believe me when I tell you that if you rely on that to any large degree you will most likely never feel satisfied. That does not mean you shouldn't strive to be wealthy mind you. It's just that a lot of people become easily fooled into believing that obtaining a certain amount of wealth will grant them some sort of amazing sense of satisfaction. While that does happen, I notice that most people spend their entire lives endlessly seeking that satisfaction regardless of how wealthy they become because they are comparing themselves to others too much and there is always someone who is "richer". By the time they realize that what they are trying to achieve isn't working, they are full of regret because they have already spent the majority of their life doing it.
- Oct 9, 1999
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I find your complacent insularity repugnant. Your definition of your "peers" is ridiculously limited.
Your argument is like someone living in Beverly Hills and "only" having 3 million dollar mansion while your "peers" have 5 million dollar mansions and up, up, UP, and then trying to claim that, therefore, you are lower middle class.
We're not buying it.
I don't agree with his argument or priorities, but to claim he is preaching socialism is going too far. That is not what he or anyone else in this thread is doing even by a long shot.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
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While I agree that even in Manhattan a 6-figure salary is not "lower middle class", I think your analogy is somewhat flawed.
Purchasing power needs to be considered. For example, in towns near where I grew up in Ohio, you can buy a sturdy farmhouse in good shape (no repairs needed, move in and live in it right now) for $50,000 to $70,000. To get the same calibre of house in the Seattle area, where I currently live, you need to spend $250,000 to $300,000. $60,000/year is enough to raise a family on in Ohio and to have your own home with a yard and everything. That's not true in Seattle. This is why national companies will adjust salaries based on geographic area.
Of course, as I said, I agree that there's nowhere in the US where a 6-figure salary would be "lower middle class". I just wanted to point out that there are cost of living differences that need to be considered when comparing salaries.
ZV
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
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I agree with that^
I don't believe I've seen a worse run campaign. The more I've seen of Obama, the more I think he can be beaten in this election.
McCain, and his people, don't know what issues to hit and how keep his message out in front.
Some of the sillier ads are necessary though IMO. And whenever any candidate is running behind - stick to the playbook and do attack ads. Had Hillary stuck to the playbook she would likely be the Dem nominee. I realize some of the typical *playbook* stuff looks stupid, but it works, presumably because we have some pretty stupid voters out there.
Fern
Kind of. But the cost of items in a place where medium income is 200k is far more expensive than a place where medium income is 50k. I live in irvine (which is also pretty damn expensive) and the price of, for example food, is so much more expensive than in other areas. When I visit my parents I make it a point to stock up on food where they live simply because I can by the same amount of food for under half the cost.
We can't take national averages and apply them on a local level and think that it holds true. It is like saying that 20-25% of the US population has an STD - the reality is that some places may have substantially lower proportions and some may run up ridiculously high.
The cost of living needs to be considered factored into a salary. I'm not saying he is lower middle class...I can't buy that. He still seems to be doing fine. But if you took your 50k and moved to a rich area where all the prices were higher, you may find it harder to save money as well.
What is the secret? Get paid really well in a place that costs almost nothing to live in...and for most people they may not choose that because it may put them in an environment or cause them to live a life style that they are not content with.
Well when you look at it, it's hard for McCain to hit Obama on the issues because his stances on nearly all of the salient ones are unpopular. His only real option is doing what he's doing, attacking Obama on character.
I mean what are the major issues? Iraq, McCain's status is unpopular. The economy, people like Obama's stance better. Health care, again to Obama. The only thing McCain might be able to run with is the offshore drilling thing, but how far is that really going to get him? (I mean there's a reason why he's clinging so hard to that, he doesn't have much else?) As far as what Hillary did, there are limits to how much attacking you can do in a primary for a lot of reasons that aren't present in the general election. It's okay to slime across party lines as much as you can, but to slime your own party is generally a bad idea.
This will not be an election based on issues, you can take that to the bank. If it somehow does turn into an election based on ideas, McCain will get buried. His platform simply isn't very popular. Look for endless character and such attack ads on Obama.
Well sure there are other costs that end up in there. The thing is that they in no way add up to the approximately $70,000 plus that he's making over the median salary.
Yep, McCain's Jerry Springer Campaign knows how to appeal to stupid people. Sadly, It "might" be the only thing he needs to win this election.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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The OP expressed concern over being impacted by Obama's tax plan, which would have hikes only for incomes $250k and above. For the record, that's 250% higher than '6-figures.' On the argument though that 6-figures is not enough to be middle class in NYC, a search for figures showed that Manhattan is the wealthiest county in the US, and also has the wealthiest zip code, 10021. And yet even there, on the Upper East Side in the nation's richest zip code, per capita income averages $90k (household income averages $180k). I chose that single zip code to make a point, as figures for all of Manhattan are greatly skewed by the great wealth disparity in different parts of the city. But certainly 6-figures should be sufficient to be middle class in Manhattan, and the $250k income necessary to be impacted by Obama's tax plan should be more than sufficient.
As for McCain's campaign, he's just a dirty negative politician and always has been. He knows his stances on the issues are for the most part either vague or unpopular, so his agenda is not so much to get you to vote for him as to get you to vote against Obama. For those, like the OP, who are considering doing exactly this on the basis of potential income tax hikes on upper income earners, I'd issue a strong warning that McCain's proposed fiscal policy does not make sense, and the current state of the US budget and debt indicates that the next President will be forced to raise taxes regardless of their campaign promises. So be careful about being caught in yet another "Read my lips."
As for McCain's campaign, he's just a dirty negative politician and always has been. He knows his stances on the issues are for the most part either vague or unpopular, so his agenda is not so much to get you to vote for him as to get you to vote against Obama. For those, like the OP, who are considering doing exactly this on the basis of potential income tax hikes on upper income earners, I'd issue a strong warning that McCain's proposed fiscal policy does not make sense, and the current state of the US budget and debt indicates that the next President will be forced to raise taxes regardless of their campaign promises. So be careful about being caught in yet another "Read my lips."
Atomic Playboy
Lifer
- Feb 6, 2007
- 16,432
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Well, you also couldn't buy a home in Ohio if you had to work in Seattle; the commute would be absurd. But you could conceivably work in Manhattan and still live in an area of the city where property values aren't so high; Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, all are part of New York City and carry far lower property values than Manhattan. If you choose to live in the wealthiest part of your city, you cannot use that as an excuse to say "Oh, I'm in a lower class now because I spend so much on rent!"
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
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Firstly, he hasn't attacked Obama's character.
Secondly, of course you think Obama's policies are the best, and only ones popular - you're a Dem. But you know, there are still Repubs/conservatives around who think otherwise.
I was referring to her running a gen elect campaign in the primary. She ran to the middle leaving the left wide-open for Obama, and he took it. Now he's running back to the center (FISA vote etc). He ran it by the playbook, she didn't and it cost her.
Fern
'doesn't make sense' is giving mccain's economic policy alot of credit. I would go for something more along the lines of 'incoherent, inconsistent and unrealistic'. His economic policy is a wreck.
What I think has nothing to do with it. Go check out the polls on the issues I mentioned, McCain loses on pretty much every single one of them. That's why he doesn't push issues, he's not an idiot... he knows they are unpopular. There certainly are Republicans and conservatives around that think otherwise, they are just in the minority and that's why it's not a good campaign tactic to draw attention to your unpopular policies. Instead McCain (wisely) is trying to focus on Obama's flaws.
As far as 'character', what I mean by that is personal issues. Is Obama seasoned enough to lead, blah blah, that sort of thing. McCain has certainly attacked him on that, and he will continue to do so. Depending on how well they work, be prepared for lots and lots of those.
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