Jim DeMint on slavery

[Jhhnn]

^This^

DeMint said nothing wrong.

Fern

So you're claiming that this statement is accurate?

So no liberal is going to win a debate that big government freed the slaves.

Big govt, in the form of the Union Army, was precisely the instrument used by Lincoln & northern abolitionists to free the slaves, and no other until after the war when the 13th & 14th amendments were jammed down the throats of slavery advocates, yet another part that big govt played in the process.

 

[tynopik]

Big govt, in the form of the Union Army, was precisely the instrument used by Lincoln & northern abolitionists to free the slaves

You're talking about the immediate reason, he was looking at the root reason.

Why did the Union army free the slaves? Because of the conscience of the 'northern abolitionists'

It's a soft pander to the lingering delusions of the lost cause of the Confederacy, to the supposed nobility of that cause. It's bullshit.

Please explain how saying slavery was wrong supports the 'lost cause of the Confederacy'

I know you desperately want to believe that, but sorry, it just makes you look moronic

 

[OGOC]

Government abolished slavery, after first endorsing slavery. ...You're Welcome?

 

[waggy]

lol wow. some need to step back. read what was said and think on it.

what he said was fundamentally true. the government was not going to end slavery on it's own. it really had no reason to.

the anti-slave movement started to gain traction in the north. they started to get laws passed. then all hell broke loose.

as with anything huge it starts with the people who then get thing passed. same with prohibition.

You're talking about the immediate reason, he was looking at the root reason.

Why did the Union army free the slaves? Because of the conscience of the 'northern abolitionists'

ohh you said it better then i did.

the government wouldn't have done it on it's own. there are reasons behind it when the government acts (unless its securing its power..).

The northern abolitionist gained power in the north. pushed for to force the south to free the slaves. the south not wanting to be told what to do said no..

w

 

[fskimospy]

You're talking about the immediate reason, he was looking at the root reason.

Why did the Union army free the slaves? Because of the conscience of the 'northern abolitionists'

No. The Union army freed the slaves as a form of economic warfare against the Confederacy. You will note that Lincoln ONLY freed the slaves in the areas considered to be in rebellion, while maintaining slavery in the states that had it and remained loyal.

 

[Jhhnn]

You're talking about the immediate reason, he was looking at the root reason.

Why did the Union army free the slaves? Because of the conscience of the 'northern abolitionists'



Please explain how saying slavery was wrong supports the 'lost cause of the Confederacy'

I know you desperately want to believe that, but sorry, it just makes you look moronic

Oh, so DeMint deliberately denied the role of big govt in the process, which is what I said in the first place. In the process, he claims that it was the ideals of the Constitution that led people to believe slavery was wrong, when in fact, the Constitution specifically endorsed slavery.

The Lost Cause is a complex mythology of denial, the central tenet being that the Civil War wasn't about race based slavery but rather about anything else. It sidesteps the issue entirely. All the references to the goodness in people's hearts & their love of God waltzes the listener away from the lack of such qualities among slave owners & the inherent evil of a racist slave based economic system. It ignores the racist Bible based rationale for southern slavery entirely, and so does DeMint.

If it was all about goodness of the heart & love of God, Jim Crow wouldn't have existed for 100 years.

 

[Jhhnn]

No. The Union army freed the slaves as a form of economic warfare against the Confederacy. You will note that Lincoln ONLY freed the slaves in the areas considered to be in rebellion, while maintaining slavery in the states that had it and remained loyal.

Perhaps you'd care to explain the role of big govt in the 13th & 14th amendments, the legal instruments that ended slavery in a real way rather than a symbolic one.

 

[First]

If you would stop knee-jerking and pay attention to the context, he's talking about the origin of the anti-slavery movement. He's saying it started with the people and it was the conviction of individuals that eventually led to the federal government, personified in Lincoln, changing.

He's saying the government was late to the party.

On some issues the government is a frontrunner and tries to enact laws that end up influencing beliefs. In this case the government was forced to enact laws to keep up with the growing belief of the populace in the evils of slavery.

You can agree or disagree with what he was trying to say, but he was NOT saying plantation owners voluntarily gave up their slaves.

The fact that he was crediting Lincoln should have been a clue

Only knee-jerks like you can make that interpretation.

You're hopelessly clueless. Slavery, while extraordinarily important to the North's cause during the Civil War was arguably not even as important as the North's need to preserve the union, an economic incentive for Northern citizens. The American people were late to the party, and very much behind the times as compared to the extremely progressive actions Lincoln took to rid the world of slavery. Americans in the North at that time were very much prejudiced against blacks, and frankly racist in their sentiment toward blacks acquiring the vote after being freed from bondage; forget black representation and inter-racial marriage, that was still very unpopular in the North during and post Civil War.

This is to say nothing of the fact that Lincoln absolutely had the foresight and willpower to pass the 13th and (later after his death) 14th amendments, codifying into law something only a big federal gov't could do. Note how much of a "tyrant" and "dictator" Lincoln was thought of for his actions during the Civil War. Ignoring the courts and doing what he thought was legal.

 

[tynopik]

All the references to the goodness in people's hearts & their love of God waltzes the listener away from the lack of such qualities among slave owners & the inherent evil of a racist slave based economic system.

WTF are you babbling about?

He believes that religion led many to oppose slavery. You can disagree with that (but you'd be wrong), but that it no way glorifies the Confederacy.

Your continued reeaaccccchhhhhhhhhinnnnnnnnnnngggggg in that regards is really astounding

 

[tynopik]

This is to say nothing of the fact that Lincoln absolutely had the foresight and willpower to pass the 13th and (later after his death) 14th amendments, codifying into law something only a big federal gov't could do. Note how much of a "tyrant" and "dictator" Lincoln was thought of for his actions during the Civil War. Ignoring the courts and doing what he thought was legal.

See, this is a reasonable argument against DeMint's position

 

[Fern]

So you're claiming that this statement is accurate?

Big govt, in the form of the Union Army, was precisely the instrument used by Lincoln & northern abolitionists to free the slaves, and no other until after the war when the 13th & 14th amendments were jammed down the throats of slavery advocates, yet another part that big govt played in the process.

Thinking of our US govt back in the 1860's as "Big Government" is truly humorous.

We were still 50 yrs away from having an income tax to even fund such a thing.

Fern

 

[norseamd]

Thinking of our US govt back in the 1860's as "Big Government" is truly humorous. We were still 50 yrs away from having an income tax to even fund such a thing. Fern

ah the dreadful income tax

how did that come about in the us

all of these conservatives making a shitstorm over it

why because of the lack of alcohol tax of course

 

[Jhhnn]

Thinking of our US govt back in the 1860's as "Big Government" is truly humorous.

We were still 50 yrs away from having an income tax to even fund such a thing.

Fern

I'm sure it looked big at the time, particularly to the Secessionists.

You're historically inaccurate, as well-

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25787.html

 

[RampantAndroid]

ah the dreadful income tax

how did that come about in the us

all of these conservatives making a shitstorm over it

why because of the lack of alcohol tax of course

Huh?

You realize there was a levy on alcohol in the 1860s to fund the civil war?

 

[norseamd]

Huh? You realize there was a levy on alcohol in the 1860s to fund the civil war?

the lack of alcohol tax during prohibition caused the us government to start collecting the income tax

 

[cyclohexane]

This is why republicans cannot get any minorities to join them. This guy is in charge of the heritage foundation? What a joke.

 

[dawheat]

So his point is that some people felt slavery was wrong before the government brought about change. Umm...no sh*t sherlock? That's like saying some people felt that people shouldn't be dying in the streets during the Great Depression before the government instituted national welfare and therefore, it wasn't big government?

Of course all ideas start with a group of people - but in some cases it takes the federal government to effect change, the abolition of slavery being one of them. In fairness, the federal government also isn't the right tool for all problems, but that isn't applicable here.

 

[hal2kilo]

So his point is that some people felt slavery was wrong before the government brought about change. Umm...no sh*t sherlock? That's like saying some people felt that people shouldn't be dying in the streets during the Great Depression before the government instituted national welfare and therefore, it wasn't big government?

Of course all ideas start with a group of people - but in some cases it takes the federal government to effect change, the abolition of slavery being one of them. In fairness, the federal government also isn't the right tool for all problems, but that isn't applicable here.

I was wondering when someone would say exactly this! :thumbsup:

 

[Jhhnn]

So his point is that some people felt slavery was wrong before the government brought about change. Umm...no sh*t sherlock? That's like saying some people felt that people shouldn't be dying in the streets during the Great Depression before the government instituted national welfare and therefore, it wasn't big government?

Of course all ideas start with a group of people - but in some cases it takes the federal government to effect change, the abolition of slavery being one of them. In fairness, the federal government also isn't the right tool for all problems, but that isn't applicable here.

Just... Stop it. Stop making sense, you fucking heretic. Faith conquers all. Reason cannot stand against it in the minds of True Believers.

 

[Incorruptible]

WTF are you babbling about?

He believes that religion led many to oppose slavery. You can disagree with that (but you'd be wrong), but that it no way glorifies the Confederacy.

Your continued reeaaccccchhhhhhhhhinnnnnnnnnnngggggg in that regards is really astounding

All he does is babble. He's a miserable person who just wants to post his insane rants on P&N and doesn't want any debate.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

And people voted for this fuck?

 

[hal2kilo]

And people voted for this fuck?

Yea, fortunately only in South Carolina. And that in itself pretty much explains it.

 

[realibrad]

The federal government did not enact and enforce slavery out of morality and it certainly did not end it out of morality. 3 factors lead to the end of slavery.

1. Economic. Slavery was becoming less profitable and harder to sustain.
2. Political. The north had been leveraging its power over the north for its own gain, and continued to do so up until the war.
3. Social. Anti-Slavery feelings were becoming popular, even if racism was little changed.

One must remember that the south used to be apart of the federal government, and thus the government was not a neutral or benevolent actor. Government is only a tool of the people. Government does not do anything without the will of people be it majority or minority. Its a empirical fact.

DeMint is wrong in that the Constitution and the belief in God lead to the downfall of slavery. Slavery was enforced by the Constitution, and enacted by the will of God fearing people. Its like the Constitution and the belief in God came after slavery...