Jesus Camp

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
QFT. Could imagine the uproar if 8% of the U.S. were militant muslims and started setting up indoctrination centers? Oh sweet Jesus . . . .

I'm not a member of such a group, nor do I agree with them. However, I know enough about them to say that not all who believe in 'conservative doctrine' behave like these guys. You're all about hasty generalizations when it comes to religion.

Not true, I said "believe what they believe" not "behave..." Who's all about hasty generalizations now?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So around 35% of Americans consider themselves Evangelical or Born-Again, with about 8% accepting all of the tenets of strict conservative doctrinal beliefs. So let's use that number. 24 Million Americans believe the same thing these 'Jesus Camp' folks believe.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: daniel49

Whats even funnier though is the same bunch here who gets worked up about stuff like this are usually first to start making excuses for Radical Islam and mock people with genuine concerns about terrorism.

That's a lie, they usually lump the two together. Those like you are always clamoring for the moderate Muslims to denounce the radical Muslims (and rightfully so) yet you then defend the radical Christians.

fair enough. I denounce that 8 year old girl who may walk up to you in the park and say Jesus loves you.:laugh:

Why, what's so radical about her saying that? Would you call a little girl who uttered "Allah be praised" in public radical?

 

[Corbett]

When Christians start blowing up themselves and others in the name of God I will start to be concerned. Nobody cares to point out how this thing is edited to make Christians look like whackos and the directors of it are BIGTIME LIBERAL FEMINISTS.

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
Now that I think about it some more maybe we are in the end times, and the american church is the false church.

Bush and Cheney are the Whore of Babylon and the Anti Christ. It's pretty obvious, I think!

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Why, what's so radical about her saying that? Would you call a little girl who uttered "Allah be praised" in public radical?

No, its not. But where are the Christians blowing themselves up in the name of God? No doubt any Christian leader would denounce that.

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
this scares the living bejesus out of me...

It should. These people are preaching the opposite of what Jesus taught, and a lot of people seem to think that is OK.

 

[theeedude]

Wow, Haggard sure loved saying "Fabulous"
Surprsed noone saw it coming from a mile away.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: daniel49

Whats even funnier though is the same bunch here who gets worked up about stuff like this are usually first to start making excuses for Radical Islam and mock people with genuine concerns about terrorism.

That's a lie, they usually lump the two together. Those like you are always clamoring for the moderate Muslims to denounce the radical Muslims (and rightfully so) yet you then defend the radical Christians.

fair enough. I denounce that 8 year old girl who may walk up to you in the park and say Jesus loves you.:laugh:

Why, what's so radical about her saying that? Would you call a little girl who uttered "Allah be praised" in public radical?

lol. you obviously don't recognize sarcasism when you hear it.
I actually watched those movies and saw that happen, thought perhaps that was some of the radical behaviour you were referring to.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Why, what's so radical about her saying that? Would you call a little girl who uttered "Allah be praised" in public radical?

No, its not. But where are the Christians blowing themselves up in the name of God? No doubt any Christian leader would denounce that.

So the only radical Muslims are those who blow themselves up? Too bad that's not true because if it were that problem would soon solve itself.

BTW I don't believe that there's as many radical Christians as there is Muslims but I think that's because Christianity is prominent in the more civilized societies where as Islam is more prominent in the less civilized societies where life is cheap. You don't see Christian Villages attacking Muslim Villages and visa versa in Europe but you do see that happening in parts of Africa and Southeast Asia.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So the only radical Muslims are those who blow themselves up? Too bad that's not true because if it were that problem would soon solve itself.

Then let me rephrase. Radical Muslims are those who blow themselves up and those who support it.

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
BTW I don't believe that there's as many radical Christians as there is Muslims but I think that's because Christianity is prominent in the more civilized societies where as Islam is more prominent in the less civilized societies where life is cheap. You don't see Christian Villages attacking Muslim Villages and visa versa in Europe but you do see that happening in parts of Africa and Southeast Asia.

So then wouldnt that be a cultural thing more than a religious thing? I dont see American Christians going to other ME countries and blowing themselves up in the name of their God. However; you do see many people from many ME countries goining throughout the world and blowing themselves up in the name of THEIR God.

 

[Fineghal]

Saw a screening of that a week or so ago...

Best parts:
"No microphone problems in the name of Jesus!"

The pastor guy (is it the one who does the abortion thing, or Ted) calling down Levi's preching

And best of all: Ted Haggard's anti-gay rhetoric pre-scandal. The irony of it nearly killed me.

Although the cardboard cutout of President Bush was pretty good too...


And let us not forget the little girl!
Paraphrase: "We're becoming warriors for Jesus, but in a fun way!"

 

[2Xtreme21]

It's just hilarious how such a double standard exists. It's OK to radicalize your kids as long as it's in Christianity.

My relatives on my mother's side are very conservative christian. I love them to death, but I have had to excuse myself from the dinner table when the conversations shift to how gay people are the spawn of satan, and blacks / indians / etc. are subservient to the white man. When asked a logical question, response is always "it says so in the Bible" or "we've heard this in prayer." I mean, these are people that would vote (and have voted) for a presidential candidate that would screw them in every way possible, but since they're against gay marriage and for overturning abortion, they'd get my relatives' votes.

Edit: And how much do you think they paid the kids to get on the floor and start convulsing? Because that stuff doesn't just naturally happen, I'm sorry.

 

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
bla blah blah

Edit: And how much do you think they paid the kids to get on the floor and start convulsing? Because that stuff doesn't just naturally happen, I'm sorry.

well, your post started to sow some semblance of sanity, then you went and made the edit

 

[magomago]

daniel49 - This stuff does scare me. I did get a chance to watch he video and quite frankly I'm dissapointed. I want to bridge misconceptions between people, I don't want some kind of explosion or battle or "culture war" simply because you have extremeists on both sides trying to FUEL one - if there will be one it is because power hungry a**hats on each side LUST for one for whatever reason they may pick.

I'm very MUCH against radicalization of Muslims BECAUSE it involves the use of Islam to further other purposes that are often about power and politics. I see from the very beginning from which she mentions Palestine and Israel that it seems to be a crux issue with her(This issue will forever be an important one until it gets resolved). In instances - such as Palestine - I believe that ultimately these people are not killing or commiting heinous acts of suicide for "their relgion" as much as for the land from which they were displaced from. They may kill themselves in the name of God - but we all know to deny the role of history these past fifty to sixty years is short sighted...but here we have her make it abundantly clear "I want them to die for the cause of Jesus" and make it a PURELY religious issue of a political situation is what is dangerous...if we get to that point we aren't even exerscising rationality anymore despite our religious beliefs!
Its wrong (both issues are - what happened in the past withe the removal of them from their land as WELL as the suicide bombings that we see now) but we have to learn to move on about it. As an person I will forever lament what happened about the great injustices that were commited and will never forget those who were caught up in it, but we have to move together as partners in peace. Slowly but surely we CAN as people realize that killing eachother endlessly is absolutely wasteful.
But this isn't a quick and fast process - it takes a long time for this to occur....a generation or two people may say. I would hope that we could have been part of that generation to finally let things settle - as I would never want to be part of a generation that was remembered for its inaction. Its clear most Palestinians simply want peace right now on 1967 lines [and remember these lines stilld don't favor them] and some variation of calling Jerusalem their capital as well....
but how can we move towards that when you have people trying to radicalize a generation and take FIVE steps back? And in a country as great and powerful as the United States no less! Maybe this wouldn't be as big of a deal if this occured in a place like Micronesia - but in the USA i would advise us to take heed simply because what we do has world wide effects, and if an entire segment of our children are taught to believe that the others are "Enemies of God" in a VERY militant way, then we become just like the minority radicals in the middle east who teach their kids the same dangerous ideas that are loosely based on beautiful religions in order to simply enforce your POV.

Lastly I myself as a Muslim am worried about this - I want to live and grow as a Muslim in the USA and contribute to an American Muslim Identity...but these people would actively take that away!
I would only hope that through my life I will encounter these types of people simply to show them through actions that a lot of what they learned are lies...

edit:

i finished it (i wrote that about 50 minutes into it) let me add though it isn't clearly the middle east...they also have their own LOCAL agenda...and yes the Ted Haggart sermon against homosexuals was hilarious Not saying I agree with Homosexuality at all - but for him to be as adamant as he was while secretly paying to have gay sex while high on drugs ranks up there on the "ridiculous" scale...Could it potentially be the reason that he was so involved? B/c he hoped the more he preached, the more god would forgive him? Well I can't speculate too but - but there is a clear disconnect with what he SAYS and what he DOES

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: daniel49

Whats even funnier though is the same bunch here who gets worked up about stuff like this are usually first to start making excuses for Radical Islam and mock people with genuine concerns about terrorism.

That's a lie, they usually lump the two together. Those like you are always clamoring for the moderate Muslims to denounce the radical Muslims (and rightfully so) yet you then defend the radical Christians.

your point Red??

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Wow, Haggard sure loved saying "Fabulous"
Surprsed noone saw it coming from a mile away.

LOL!!!!! Hindsight, heh~!

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
http://throwawayyourtv.com/2006/12/jesus-camp-full-doc.html

I got through the first part and I am just appalled. Their rationale for brainwashing kids is so they, in a sense, have a weapon against radical islam-- who, last time I checked, do the exact same thing to their kids. So, if you can't beat them, join them? Is this the way our country is headed? Scare their population into submission and then partake in the same activities as the enemies we're scared of just under a different name?

repost every 2 or 3 minths...very old news!!!
As long as those kids are not yours you have nothing to complain about!!

I would agree with dawkins in which case i say that this is borderline child abuse.

 

[miketheidiot]

i can't believe this happened in my own state

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: magomago
daniel49 - This stuff does scare me. I did get a chance to watch he video and quite frankly I'm dissapointed. I want to bridge misconceptions between people, I don't want some kind of explosion or battle or "culture war" simply because you have extremeists on both sides trying to FUEL one - if there will be one it is because power hungry a**hats on each side LUST for one for whatever reason they may pick.

the bridge I think is merely to respect ones belief whatever it is. I have no problem with a muslum going to a mosqe to worship God in his way or an atheist choosing not to worship at all. I do however have a problem with society restricting religious freedoms, which is what the secular progressives are trying to accomplish through the courts and tha aclu. This is why you see so many evangelicals caring about who's in Govt. we are tired of getting the secular progressive ,anti-God view shoved down our throats

.I'm very MUCH against radicalization of Muslims BECAUSE it involves the use of Islam to further other purposes that are often about power and politics. I see from the very beginning from which she mentions Palestine and Israel that it seems to be a crux issue with her(This issue will forever be an important one until it gets resolved). In instances - such as Palestine - I believe that ultimately these people are not killing or commiting heinous acts of suicide for "their relgion" as much as for the land from which they were displaced from. They may kill themselves in the name of God - but we all know to deny the role of history these past fifty to sixty years is short sighted...but here we have her make it abundantly clear "I want them to die for the cause of Jesus" and make it a PURELY religious issue of a political situation is what is dangerous...

I think you are reading more into it then is there it is quite different then in the Muslum world. No one is telling these kids to strap on bombs and blow themselves up. It is, merely a very emotional way to say ( And the film was of Pentecostal's, which worship very emotionally)" Be sold out for God" "value your faith" ""resist the temptations of the world" The dying that is spoken of in the bible is dying to yourself (your own fleshly desires).

if we get to that point we aren't even exerscising rationality anymore despite our religious beliefs!
Its wrong (both issues are - what happened in the past withe the removal of them from their land as WELL as the suicide bombings that we see now) but we have to learn to move on about it. As an person I will forever lament what happened about the great injustices that were commited and will never forget those who were caught up in it, but we have to move together as partners in peace. Slowly but surely we CAN as people realize that killing eachother endlessly is absolutely wasteful.

yes, it is

But this isn't a quick and fast process - it takes a long time for this to occur....a generation or two people may say. I would hope that we could have been part of that generation to finally let things settle - as I would never want to be part of a generation that was remembered for its inaction. Its clear most Palestinians simply want peace right now on 1967 lines [and remember these lines stilld don't favor them] and some variation of calling Jerusalem their capital as well....
but how can we move towards that when you have people trying to radicalize a generation and take FIVE steps back? And in a country as great and powerful as the United States no less! Maybe this wouldn't be as big of a deal if this occured in a place like Micronesia - but in the USA i would advise us to take heed simply because what we do has world wide effects, and if an entire segment of our children are taught to believe that the others are "Enemies of God" in a VERY militant way, then we become just like the minority radicals in the middle east who teach their kids the same dangerous ideas that are loosely based on beautiful religions in order to simply enforce your POV.

Lastly I myself as a Muslim am worried about this - I want to live and grow as a Muslim in the USA and contribute to an American Muslim Identity...but these people would actively take that away!
I would only hope that through my life I will encounter these types of people simply to show them through actions that a lot of what they learned are lies...

I think thats fine magomago. I believe you have that now,and I want that for you always.
actually she seemed to pay a compliment in the movie to the Muslum faith, but what was either not brought out or was edited out to make it look worse was that that zeal and knowledge has to go hand in hand with love and charity towards others. Or its empty.

i finished it (i wrote that about 50 minutes into it) let me add though it isn't clearly the middle east...they also have their own LOCAL agenda...and yes the Ted Haggart sermon against homosexuals was hilarious Not saying I agree with Homosexuality at all - but for him to be as adamant as he was while secretly paying to have gay sex while high on drugs ranks up there on the "ridiculous" scale...Could it potentially be the reason that he was so involved? B/c he hoped the more he preached, the more god would forgive him? Well I can't speculate too but - but there is a clear disconnect with what he SAYS and what he DOES

Ted Haggert was a fake and his sins found him out. He has been removed from his position. Even though that position really was rather meaningless. The NEA no more speaks for Christians as individuals then Jesse Jackson speaks for all blacks.
I can't pretend to understand his motives, but even though there is forgiveness for sin there are also consequences.
In closing magomago, its my belief that most Americans (Christian or otherwise) have no problem allowing you to worship as you choose. I think we just look at the Muslum populations in Europe and worry about similatities here?
Be it true or false, people worry none the less.
You seem like a nice fellow and I would consider you a friend.
Our Country is secular and should stay that way, but that in no way ,shape, or form says that we should not have a voice in the laws and or governing of the land anymore or any less then any other group of individuals or segment of society.

 

[miketheidiot]

I hate to say it, but religious people disgust me.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Not true, I said "believe what they believe" not "behave..." Who's all about hasty generalizations now?

I could believe what they believe and not set up an 'indoctrination center.' You were citing the belief, not the behavior, but the behavior is what you actually have a problem with. Believe me - their behavior worries me as much as it does you. One lab tech in my department lives in a far-right-wing religious commune where the kids are international judo champions and all own, and often fire, assault rifles (ages 9-17). I have no problem decrying this behavior, but the belief system is not causally related to the behavior, even if it is highly correlated. The indoctrination system itself is the cause.

The guy dislikes me because I'm a Catholic. He dislikes me more because I'm a Catholic who has actually read the Bible. He dislikes me more still because I like to point out his inconstitencies. He really dislikes that I called him on his saying that Jesus said 'an eye for an eye', where Jesus really said exactly the opposite (You've heard it said 'an eye for an eye', but I say to you - if someone hits your cheek, give him your other cheek. paraphrase).

As a Catholic, I am acutely aware of what can happen when a religion gets power-hungry, as my own Church has done in the past. These past abuses are why the Catholic Church expends so much effort now teaching future priests the historical context and even the original languages that the Bible was written in so they can actually understand what was being conveyed by the original author rather than some literal interpretation. The fallacy of a literal interpretation, as Lewis Black likes to say, is that the Jews never took it literally before Jesus' time, and that any literal interpretation would be language-dependent, as idiomatic expressions vary considerably per language and culture.

/ramble

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Why, what's so radical about her saying that? Would you call a little girl who uttered "Allah be praised" in public radical?

No, its not. But where are the Christians blowing themselves up in the name of God? No doubt any Christian leader would denounce that.

Umm, Christians have money.. they get people to die for them(Iraq). A supermajority of the Muslims in the ME are poor.. therefore they have nothing to lose by dieing... Are you seriously not able to see this?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
I hate to say it, but religious people disgust me.

I hate bigoted idiots and zealots, regardless of whether they're deists or atheists.

 

[beyoku]

So sad. These people are crazy. And very extreme. After watching all that i did notice 1 big thing:
100% Antics
0% Scripture
A full documentary about these people and not once did any one person quote a scripture from the bible.
Actually i only saw 1 kid open bible within the entire program......and money fell out of it.
This is sad and extreme, and this is coming from a person that since the age of 8 grew up studying with Jehovah's Witnesses. These folks in the vid are almost cult like. When i was younger i went out with my friends but as a kid/teen i wouldn't do "worldy" things like smoke cigarettes, pre-marital sex, drugs, theft etc. That is what my "bible trained conscious" taught me. It had nothing to do with scary stories, Harry Potter, or politics. People thought i was extreme as i spend 5 hours a week in religious services. It was MAINLY learning what is in the bible. And thats probably the worst part about it, so much brain washing and so much of a waste of time and in the end all they know is a few catch phrases about Jesus. Absolutely nothing about God, Absolutely nothing about the bible. Absolutely nothing about what it means to truly be a Christian. My nephew that is 8 knows more about that bible than that woman that runs the church. And the antics are just out of this world. I have been to a place in the world and saw TRUE people in religious like trances and frenzies where they are oblivious to pain. It is not fun and actually pretty scary. And while I try not to knock peoples faith I would almost have to say that even that atmosphere for such things would be hard to create at "Jesus camp." Then again, i was not a kid there.

Out of the safety and wellbeing of the children's mental health i wouldnt do this but it could be done. I would like to see all these same kids taken to "Flying Spaghetti Monster Camp" and their entire outlook changed. Im sure by the end of the week you could get them crying for the spaghetti monster and rolling on the ground the same way.....Calling for the death of Alfredo. You could make a documentary and send it to their parents.