Jeb Bush on Climate Change. WTF???

[Jaskalas]

researchers being paid to find specific results.

we finally get back to climate global change warming!

case in point

No, this is case in point.

I take it your not on Team Satellite, and you think 2014 was the warmest year on record, despite global sea ice consistently being above average before, during, and after the "warmest" year.

Why aren't you on Team Satellite?

 

[dank69]

No, this is case in point.

I take it your not on Team Satellite, and you think 2014 was the warmest year on record, despite global sea ice consistently being above average before, during, and after the "warmest" year.

Why aren't you on Team Satellite?

Still going on about global sea ice? Hasn't it been explained to you that as glaciers melt floating sea ice will of course increase? Countless times? Run along Jaskalas, run along and keep pretending you know something that the entire scientific community does not.

 

[bshole]

Still going on about global sea ice? Hasn't it been explained to you that as glaciers melt floating sea ice will of course increase? Countless times? Run along Jaskalas, run along and keep pretending you know something that the entire scientific community does not.

Um better tell that to the scientists.....

The underlying mechanism is fairly well understood, says Tony Worby, a sea ice specialist at the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative Research Centre. "We know that the changing Antarctic sea ice extent is very largely driven by changes in wind,” he says. “In turn, we know those changes are driven by the depletion of ozone in the stratosphere as well as increasing greenhouse gases at the surface." The new wind patterns blow Antarctic sea ice away from the continent and then more ice forms close to shore. This doesn't occur in the Arctic because the ocean is hemmed in by land masses. And "it's quite a lot windier around Antarctica than in the Arctic," Worby says.

In retort you will be posting a link so some other scientist who will say no no no, it is glacier melt.

So the question is, which scientist should we choose to believe without evidence. This is a faith issue after all....

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/...rs-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

 

[realibrad]

Um better tell that to the scientists.....



In retort you will be posting a link so some other scientist who will say no no no, it is glacier melt.

So the question is, which scientist should we choose to believe without evidence. This is a faith issue after all....

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/...rs-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

I think what is more likely is that dank, whom is not a scientist, simply misunderstood the data.

Melting land ice does not increase sea ice. Climate change can decrease land ice, and increase sea ice though.

You seemed to have taken his statement as representing someones argument, when he simply could have misunderstood the data.

 

[dank69]

I think what is more likely is that dank, whom is not a scientist, simply misunderstood the data.

Melting land ice does not increase sea ice. Climate change can decrease land ice, and increase sea ice though.

You seemed to have taken his statement as representing someones argument, when he simply could have misunderstood the data.

Entirely possible, as I am definitely not a scientist and I am going from memory, but this seems to confirm what I was talking about.

 

[realibrad]

Entirely possible, as I am definitely not a scientist and I am going from memory, but this seems to confirm what I was talking about.

Looking over the paper, it does seem you are correct. In the report, the idea behind melting land ice increases sea ice, because the fresh water in the land ice is less dense and rises to the surface. The melted land ice is slightly cooler than the ocean salt water, and so the winds that form sea ice are able to freeze the water around the land.

So it seems that dank is correct and even provided data to back up his claim. I can now use this data to reshape my ideas about ice. Faith would be me ignoring his data to keep my current belief. Science is not faith.

 

[nickqt]

Looking over the paper, it does seem you are correct. In the report, the idea behind melting land ice increases sea ice, because the fresh water in the land ice is less dense and rises to the surface. The melted land ice is slightly cooler than the ocean salt water, and so the winds that form sea ice are able to freeze the water around the land.

So it seems that dank is correct and even provided data to back up his claim. I can now use this data to reshape my ideas about ice. Faith would be me ignoring his data to keep my current belief. Science is not faith.

More fresh water = more ice. The less salt, the higher the freezing point of water.

 

[realibrad]

More fresh water = more ice. The less salt, the higher the freezing point of water.

Much of the salt in seawater is expelled in the freezing ice. Some of the salt can get trapped in the ice crystals, but much of it sinks and eventually leaves the ice.

When sea ice forms, most of the salt is pushed into the ocean water below the ice, although some salt may become trapped in small pockets between ice crystals.

In contrast to fresh water, the salt in ocean water causes the density of the water to increase as it nears the freezing point, and very cold ocean water tends to sink. As a result, sea ice forms slowly, compared to freshwater ice, because salt water sinks away from the cold surface before it cools enough to freeze.

https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/index.html

Its super neat stuff.

 

[bshole]

Looking over the paper, it does seem you are correct. In the report, the idea behind melting land ice increases sea ice, because the fresh water in the land ice is less dense and rises to the surface. The melted land ice is slightly cooler than the ocean salt water, and so the winds that form sea ice are able to freeze the water around the land.

So it seems that dank is correct and even provided data to back up his claim. I can now use this data to reshape my ideas about ice. Faith would be me ignoring his data to keep my current belief. Science is not faith.

Um so the sea ice specialist at the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative I quoted was full of shit? You have two experts with two differing opinions on why it is expanding. Interestingly enough they both are warmists. So there is no politically correct answer on this one. I will admit that the argument presented by my sea ice specialist resonated with me more than yours. This brings me back to my original question. Only one of this guys can be right..... which one is? I myself trust the first one more BECAUSE HE DID NOT USE A #$%#$@@#@@ING MODEL. I am so sick of models AS EVIDENCE! Evidence is observations, not models!

 

[dank69]

Um so the sea ice specialist at the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative I quoted was full of shit? You have two experts with two differing opinions on why it is expanding. Interestingly enough they both are warmists. So there is no politically correct answer on this one. I will admit that the argument presented by my sea ice specialist resonated with me more than yours. This brings me back to my original question. Only one of this guys can be right..... which one is? I myself trust the first one more BECAUSE HE DID NOT USE A #$%#$@@#@@ING MODEL. I am so sick of models AS EVIDENCE! Evidence is observations, not models!

I don't think your link says what you think it says. He doesn't say anything about glacial melt. My link acknowledges the wind as a factor as well.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Active volcanoes below the ice sheet may be a factor as well.

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9070.abstract

 

[realibrad]

Um so the sea ice specialist at the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative I quoted was full of shit? You have two experts with two differing opinions on why it is expanding. Interestingly enough they both are warmists. So there is no politically correct answer on this one. I will admit that the argument presented by my sea ice specialist resonated with me more than yours. This brings me back to my original question. Only one of this guys can be right..... which one is? I myself trust the first one more BECAUSE HE DID NOT USE A #$%#$@@#@@ING MODEL. I am so sick of models AS EVIDENCE! Evidence is observations, not models!

Actually, they both could be contributing to the ice formation, as neither is mutually exclusive.

Melting land ice creates more fresh water than can freeze. The winds that move the land ice away, open a void for the new fresh water to then freeze. They could be feedback loops that both contribute to ice formation.

I feel like this is pretty simple.

 

[Sonikku]

You have to admit though, he is right about science not being 100% settled. 3% of Scientists still disagree.

 

[1prophet]

Agreed, the threat of world catastrophe to happen in the next 10 years has been stated by the crazies since the 70's. Too bad they drowned out the normal environmentalists.

But What does the OP want us to do that will stop climate change? Fixing the US is not going to stop China, Inda, etc who pollute way more than us.

What is this about 10 giant cargo ships that pollute more than all automobiles in the world? Seems like we need to go after the worst polluters before we force everyone to drive electric cars. But for the record i am fine with the raising of fuel efficiency standards and we know sometimes you need to force change.

Is fixing part of a problem better than fixing none of a problem?

Not when it comes to the earth since pollution does not respect borders,

Americans have developed a severe form of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the environment,

they want pristine water, clean food and air and love to pass regulation upon regulation on businesses in their own back yard but seek out the cheaper products made in countries with little to no regard to pollution or safety standards,

They want an illegal to pick their fruits and vegetables,

near slave labor to build their I-junk and other associated high tech toys,

some country in Africa to dispose of their garbage and toxic waste

but tell them you can alleviate most of these problems by requiring all products,and all subcomponents to be compliant to US laws on environmental, manufacturing, labor, and recycling/disposal standards regardless where they are sourced from, here or abroad, if they want to sell them in The USA but there would be a catch,

Americans will have to pay more,

too bad most of them would balk, not just conservatives but many so called enviro-liberals who suddenly develop short arms while trying to reach into their deep pockets.

 

[ivwshane]

I'm willing to pay more. What I am not willing to do, as I suspect most Americans aren't, is to pay more for an inferior product.

I'm also totally for all companies doing business in the US or that reside in the US being required to meet the standards you set forth.

Not when it comes to the earth since pollution does not respect borders,

Americans have developed a severe form of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the environment,

they want pristine water, clean food and air and love to pass regulation upon regulation on businesses in their own back yard but seek out the cheaper products made in countries with little to no regard to pollution or safety standards,

They want an illegal to pick their fruits and vegetables,

near slave labor to build their I-junk and other associated high tech toys,

some country in Africa to dispose of their garbage and toxic waste

but tell them you can alleviate most of these problems by requiring all products,and all subcomponents to be compliant to US laws on environmental, manufacturing, labor, and recycling/disposal standards regardless where they are sourced from, here or abroad, if they want to sell them in The USA but there would be a catch,

Americans will have to pay more,

too bad most of them would balk, not just conservatives but many so called enviro-liberals who suddenly develop short arms while trying to reach into their deep pockets.

 

[soundforbjt]

You really want to end illegal immigration, stop & penalize (arrest-not hand-slapping fines) the "job creators" who are employing them. But we can't have that, much better to condemn those doing the jobs most Americans wouldn't dream of doing.

 

[rudeguy]

You really want to end illegal immigration, stop & penalize (arrest-not hand-slapping fines) the "job creators" who are employing them. But we can't have that, much better to condemn those doing the jobs most Americans wouldn't dream of doing.

My vote is to secure the border first and foremost.

There are already federal programs in place to prevent hiring someone without the legal right to work. The punishment is not a slap on the wrist. The problem is people get forged paperwork that makes it so an employer has no idea the person is illegal.

 

[soundforbjt]

My vote is to secure the border first and foremost.

There are already federal programs in place to prevent hiring someone without the legal right to work. The punishment is not a slap on the wrist. The problem is people get forged paperwork that makes it so an employer has no idea the person is illegal.

Name the last employer sent to jail for employing an illegal. A fine is a slap on the wrist if they continue to employ illegals. Laws do no good if not enforced. Haven't seen a wall yet that can't be tunneled under or defeated some other way.

 

[rudeguy]

Name the last employer sent to jail for employing an illegal. A fine is a slap on the wrist if they continue to employ illegals. Laws do no good if not enforced. Haven't seen a wall yet that can't be tunneled under or defeated some other way.

I only know about the laws from the employers side. I don't have cases to cite.

Nothing is 100% but we need to try. Our birder security is a massive joke

 

[nickqt]

My vote is to secure the border first and foremost.

There are already federal programs in place to prevent hiring someone without the legal right to work. The punishment is not a slap on the wrist. The problem is people get forged paperwork that makes it so an employer has no idea the person is illegal.

A lot of illegal immigrants already have a job waiting for them before they ever cross the border. There's an industry in getting them here just like there's an industry in getting cocaine and heroin into the country.

Employers profit. Banks profit. Coyotes profit. It isn't as easy as just "securing" the border. Not everyone swims the Rio Grande or is hiding in the back of a trailer.

 

[soundforbjt]

I only know about the laws from the employers side. I don't have cases to cite.

Nothing is 100% but we need to try. Our birder security is a massive joke

It's easier to cross the northern border than the southern border, why are we not having problems there?

 

[rudeguy]

It's easier to cross the northern border than the southern border, why are we not having problems there?

Even terrorists won't go to the canada :awe:

 

[rudeguy]

A lot of illegal immigrants already have a job waiting for them before they ever cross the border. There's an industry in getting them here just like there's an industry in getting cocaine and heroin into the country.

Employers profit. Banks profit. Coyotes profit. It isn't as easy as just "securing" the border. Not everyone swims the Rio Grande or is hiding in the back of a trailer.

Hence why I didn't say build a fence.

It's a big task. It's going to have a bunch of moving parts. But what we have today is a joke. It's 50% finding drugs, 45% putting on a show and 5% securing the border.

 

[ivwshane]

Hence why I didn't say build a fence.

It's a big task. It's going to have a bunch of moving parts. But what we have today is a joke. It's 50% finding drugs, 45% putting on a show and 5% securing the border.

Border security has more than doubled in the last decade, border security isn't the issue.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...order-security-and-patrols-under-obama-previ/

Righties on border security are just as dumb as gun grabbers by focusing on the wrong issue.

 

[rudeguy]

Border security has more than doubled in the last decade, border security isn't the issue.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...order-security-and-patrols-under-obama-previ/

Righties on border security are just as dumb as gun grabbers by focusing on the wrong issue.

You really are a stupid man.