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Jailed for having a home Bible study?

Lazarus52980

Senior member
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but this seems insane... I have hosted studies in my home before and we had about 20 people every week for close to a year...


A Phoenix man who violated city zoning laws by hosting a Bible study in the privacy of his home has started serving a 60-day jail sentence for his crimes.
Michael Salman was found guilty in the City of Phoenix Court of 67 code violations. He was sentenced to 60 days in jail along with three years of probation and a $12,180 fine. A spokesperson for the city attorney confirmed that Salman reported to a county jail Monday afternoon.
Members of Salman’s Bible study group posted video of their teacher as he self-reported to the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office. It was an emotional scene.
“We believe that people should not be prohibiting other people from having Bible studies in their homes,” Salman said outside the jail. “We believe what they are doing is wrong. It’s private property. It’s our home.”
Salman embraced some of his Bible study members before offering final remarks.
“At the very end, after all is said and done, God will ultimately have glory in this,” he said. “We do this for the glory of the Lord.”
Someone off camera could be heard remarking, “I love you, pastor.”
Salman’s incarceration is the result of a long-running feud between the ordained pastor and the city of Phoenix over weekly Bible studies that Salman and his wife hosted in their home. City officials determined that the weekly gatherings constituted a church – and therefore violated a number of code regulations.
The controversy erupted in 2009 when nearly a dozen police officers raided the Salman’s home and a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. The family had moved their Bible study into the building after the group outgrew their living room.
The charges that sent Salman to jail were a result of that raid – ranging from not posting exit lights above their doors – to not having handicap ramps or handicap parking.
Salman told Fox News Radio the attacks on his family were nothing more than a crackdown on religious liberty.
“They’re attacking what I – as a Christian – do in the privacy of my home,” he said. “At what point does the government have the right to state that you cannot have family and friends over at your home three times a week?”
But city officials said it was a matter of zoning and proper permitting – not religious freedom. They said he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room – not a church.
“Any other occupancy or use – business, commercial, assembly, church, etc. is expressly prohibited pursuant to the city of Phoenix building code and ordinances,” said Vicki Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor.
The irony of that rule was not lost on Salman.
“If I had people coming to my home on a regular basis for poker night or Monday Night Football, it would be permitted,” he said. “But when someone says to us we are not allowed to gather because of religious purposes – that is when you have discrimination.”
Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council said the attack against Salman should serve as a wake-up call to Christians across the nation.
“Any time religious freedom or the freedom of speech is infringed upon, Americans should be concerned,” Perkins told Fox News Radio. “We are seeing jurisdictions using zoning ordinances to crack down the exercise of religious freedom.”
Perkins said there is a movement in recent years for churches to move back to an Early Church model where Christians met in private homes – rather than church facilities. As a result, he said some communities are in fact cracking down on what people do in the privacy of their homes.
“We’re seeing more Bible studies, home-based churches, small groups meeting together,” he said. “and people are not able to do with their own property that which is an exercise of their religious freedom.”
Perkins also took issue with the city of Phoenix deciding what constituted a church.
“The definition is nebulous,” he said. “A family of more than eight people who gather for prayer could meet the definition of a church.”

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/homeowner-jailed-for-hosting-bible-study.html
 
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but this seems insane... I have hosted studies in my home before and we had about 20 people every week for close to a year...

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/homeowner-jailed-for-hosting-bible-study.html

nearly a dozen police officers raided the Salman’s home and a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard.

The family had moved their Bible study into the building after the group outgrew their living room.

Come on. This is not a poker night at the card table in the den, this is a church on residential property.
 
Come on. This is not a poker night at the card table in the den, this is a church on residential property.

Yep. I was with the victim here until I read about the separate 2,000 sf building. Furthermore:

Mr Salman has insisted that the building is not a house of worship, although it certainly looks like one, complete with chairs set up for as many as 40 people, a pulpit and a large cross on the lawn outside.

Of course Christians will ignore the salient facts and play the "religious discrimination" card as they always do.
 
That's absolutely ridiculous. The city rules are idiotic. As noted in the story, if the guy had 20 buddies over to play poker or watch a ballgame at the exact same time and place, it would be no issue. But if those same 20 buddies come over and decide to read the Bible, the guy goes to jail.

Based on the city regs, a family of 8 praying in the privacy of their own home would constitute a "church" for the city, requiring the family to install "exit" signs, ADA ramps, parking spots for the disabled and a host of other codes. That's crazy.

The city should be consistent in the regulations. If it's OK to have 20 people over to watch football, it should not be an issue to have 20 people over to learn knitting or read the Bible, Koran or the latest Oprah crap book.

To me it's pretty obvious that a big building in the back for people to pray in is in fact a church, but the regs and rules should be more clear and consistent.
 
The city should be consistent in the regulations. If it's OK to have 20 people over to watch football, it should not be an issue to have 20 people over to learn knitting or read the Bible, Koran or the latest Oprah crap book.

This isn't someone having people over to their home. It's someone having people over to a de facto church.

If you build a 2,000 sf building with a big-screen TV in it, a bar, chairs for 40 people, and you have people over to watch football in it three times a week, you'd have the same problem.
 
This isn't someone having people over to their home. It's someone having people over to a de facto church.

If you build a 2,000 sf building with a big-screen TV in it, a bar, chairs for 40 people, and you have people over to watch football in it three times a week, you'd have the same problem.

Actually, no, I don't think you would have that problem, unless you charge admission or otherwise engage in commercial activity. Unless you are a nuisance to the neighborhood or something, you would have no problem having 40 people over to watch a ballgame in a structure you set up on your private property.
 
Had he not built the extra building, I would side with him. But he built a church and now is complaining that he violates the ordinances covering it.

EDIT: As pokerguy said, it is not a problem unless you turn into a nuisance. I assume he is bothering his neighbors, which is why one of them called.
 
Actually, no, I don't think you would have that problem, unless you charge admission or otherwise engage in commercial activity. Unless you are a nuisance to the neighborhood or something, you would have no problem having 40 people over to watch a ballgame in a structure you set up on your private property.

The story clearly says that he was a nuisance to the neighborhood.

It also says that the building was the core issue... they only got involved after he built a church in his back yard.

This story being portrayed as "guy persecuted for home bible study" is an outright deception (of the type typical of the right-wing media).
 
Had he not built the extra building, I would side with him. But he built a church and now is complaining that he violates the ordinances covering it.

EDIT: As pokerguy said, it is not a problem unless you turn into a nuisance. I assume he is bothering his neighbors, which is why one of them called.

Actually, from what I heard on the radio, the neighbors had not complained, a city inspector saw the building and the city looked into it.

If there was a public nuisance, then they should have taken appropriate action under nuisance statutes. They didn't. They've hauled him off to jail specifically because they claim that under city codes his building constitutes a church. However, under city codes, any assembly of more than 7 people reading a Bible would constitute a church, but yet the same assembly doing anything else would be fine. That's idiotic.
 
Actually, from what I heard on the radio, the neighbors had not complained, a city inspector saw the building and the city looked into it.

Nope:
Officials said the city has become aware of the meetings after some of Salman’s neighbors complained about traffic congestion near his home, although the pastor insists that his guests would always park on his property.
Not that this matters. He was running a church. He needed to follow the rules for running a church. It's as simple as that.
 
Isnt the title of this thread a little misleading? The bible study was in the 2000 sqft building behind his home. Which was most definitely not a church, because it is common for people to have 2000 sqft structures in their backyard ^_^
 
Nope:
Not that this matters. He was running a church. He needed to follow the rules for running a church. It's as simple as that.

I stand corrected regarding the nuisance, but that doesn't change my point, that the city ordinances in this instance are idiotic. If a family of 8 gets together for prayer it's apparently considered a church.... yet 8 people watching football is fine. I have no problem with the city having safety codes and all that for buildings with gatherings, but the reason for gathering should not make a difference.
 
Which was most definitely not a church, because it is common for people to have 2000 sqft structures in their backyard ^_^

At one point I had a 2000 sq ft barn on my property. Based on your logic that must have been a church as well heh? What about if 10 people gathered there and read a Bible? According to the city that would have been a church. What about if those 10 people watched football or played poker? No issue.
 
If a family of 8 gets together for prayer it's apparently considered a church.... yet 8 people watching football is fine.

Why do you keep talking about a "family of 8" getting together to pray in their own home? That's not what was going on here.

He had a separate building. With a pulpit. With seating for 40 people.

He had a church sign and a cross on his lawn.

How is that in any way comparable to 8 people in their living rooms?

Even if the ordinance says that technically 8 people makes a church, there's no evidence anyone was ever prosecuted on that basis. The issue was the building.
 
They said he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room – not a church.

I'd be curious to know if he was required to submit plans to get the permit (often the case) and how close the final design adhears to those plans.

Was anyone able to find out what Phoenix considers to be a church? My google foo has failed me
 
Even if the ordinance says that technically 8 people makes a church, there's no evidence anyone was ever prosecuted on that basis. The issue was the building.

Just because nobody was prosecuted doesn't mean the ordinance is right. Again, I don't have any problem with the city having and enforcing ordinances. I have a problem with the ordinances not being clear and consistently applied, depending on the nature of the activities.
 
Isnt the title of this thread a little misleading? The bible study was in the 2000 sqft building behind his home. Which was most definitely not a church, because it is common for people to have 2000 sqft structures in their backyard ^_^

I'm not saying this is right but it can be pretty darn common. In the more rural areas around here it is very common for people to have an extra structure (Pole barn, large garage) and its not surprising when that structure is larger than their house itself

Edit: *Taps sarcasm meter* Is this thing working? I can't tell.....
 
At one point I had a 2000 sq ft barn on my property. Based on your logic that must have been a church as well heh? What about if 10 people gathered there and read a Bible? According to the city that would have been a church. What about if those 10 people watched football or played poker? No issue.

If you installed a pulpit and large cross inside then yes 😛

And I having a barn in rural areas makes sense. But from the story this happened in Phoenix.
 
At one point I had a 2000 sq ft barn on my property. Based on your logic that must have been a church as well heh? What about if 10 people gathered there and read a Bible? According to the city that would have been a church. What about if those 10 people watched football or played poker? No issue.


If you setup a bar, put up neon beer signs, put TVs on all the wall, built a parking area, and setup a sign which said "Pokerguy's Bar and Grill", then had 40 some odd people over on a regular basis I am sure they would have cited you too.
 
If you setup a bar, put up neon beer signs, put TVs on all the wall, built a parking area, and setup a sign which said "Pokerguy's Bar and Grill", then had 40 some odd people over on a regular basis I am sure they would have cited you too.

Cited for what? If there was no commercial activity taking place of any kind, and I just invited 40 people over every week to watch the games and have beers etc, what would they have cited me for?
 
Cited for what? If there was no commercial activity taking place of any kind, and I just invited 40 people over every week to watch the games and have beers etc, what would they have cited me for?

Creating a disturbance. You would need to ensure your neighbors were in your bar with you, else the noise and parking problems would be called into the police. They could then cite you with many habitation violations, to be sure.
 
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