Jail for not purchasing insurance?

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,737
54,755
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Originally posted by: episodic
Now, I was all for a single payer system ala France or Canada - but what this is going to morph into looks horrible. . .

http://www.politico.com/livepu...irmation_.html?showall

Now, this is the only source I have, and I know it may be biased. Maybe someone has something to add. . .

That's a similar punishment that can happen for any tax penalty, which is what this will be. Every article of taxation pretty much comes with this implicit punishment.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Americans who fail to pay the penalty for not buying insurance would face legal action from the Internal Revenue Service, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

The remarks Thursday from the committee's chief of staff, Thomas Barthold, seems to further weaken President Barack Obama's contention last week that the individual mandate penalty, which could go as high as $1,900, is not a tax increase.

Under questioning from Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.), Barthold said the IRS would "take you to court and undertake normal collection proceedings."



ugh, better increase funding on prisons by 1000% .
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,737
54,755
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Originally posted by: Modelworks
Americans who fail to pay the penalty for not buying insurance would face legal action from the Internal Revenue Service, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

The remarks Thursday from the committee's chief of staff, Thomas Barthold, seems to further weaken President Barack Obama's contention last week that the individual mandate penalty, which could go as high as $1,900, is not a tax increase.

Under questioning from Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.), Barthold said the IRS would "take you to court and undertake normal collection proceedings."

ugh, better increase funding on prisons by 1000% .

You want to increase spending on prisons from $47 billion to $470 billion? If anyone thinks that significant people are going to be thrown in jail for this, they are pretty deluded.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
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You dont get jail time for not having auto insurance (a similarity people like to use). I cant imagine this ever coming to life.
 

Athena

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
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The IRS doesn't institute legal proceedings for $1900 -- it just keeps adding interest and penalties, levying bank accounts, garnishing wages, etc. until the target has nothing left.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,737
54,755
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Originally posted by: blackangst1
You dont get jail time for not having auto insurance (a similarity people like to use). I cant imagine this ever coming to life.

Auto insurance is and will continue to be a bad analogy in most cases, but in this one it's accurate, and lack of auto insurance could send you to jail in the same way this does. If you get caught without insurance, you get a fine. If you don't pay that fine technically you can be sent to jail, but it never happens. I imagine something similar would happen here. The IRS might dock your pay, they might screw your credit eventually, but nobody's going to jail.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
You dont get jail time for not having auto insurance (a similarity people like to use). I cant imagine this ever coming to life.

You will get jail time if you don't pay the fine you get for not having auto insurance. Exactly what is being said here.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: Athena
The IRS doesn't institute legal proceedings for $1900 -- it just keeps adding interest and penalties, levying bank accounts, garnishing wages, etc. until the target has nothing left.

You can go to jail for tax evasion. Ask any mob boss who gets put away as this is how we get them.




With that said, I don't think there should be fines and such for not purchasing insurance for you employee's and such as I think it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to fix the problems in our health care system and most importantly with Private Insurance.

It just ends up getting people shitty overpriced insurances that does nothing but fund CEO's yacht fleets.
 

Athena

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: SirStev0
You can go to jail for tax evasion. Ask any mob boss who gets put away as this is how we get them.
Tax evasion and non-payment are two different things. In this country, for the time being at least, you can not go to jail without some sort of court proceeding -- and the IRS doesn't waste time on small time tax deliquents.

With that said, I don't think there should be fines and such for not purchasing insurance for you employee's and such as I think it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to fix the problems in our health care system and most importantly with Private Insurance.

It just ends up getting people shitty overpriced insurances that does nothing but fund CEO's yacht fleets.
I agree.

I'm also having problems with this excise tax on "Cadillac" plans. I don't see how increasing the price for extended coverage is supposed to do anything at all about affordability and coverage for others. It may raise money but it seems stupid to me to raise money to subsidize private health insurance for poor people by systematically raising the price of other policies.

I'm in favor of eliminating the corporate tax deduction on health benefits. I can't see why though, someone who pays $20K out of his own pocket should have the premium increased. This is what you get when people forget what the overall objective is supposed to be and it's Kafkaesque.

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
You dont get jail time for not having auto insurance (a similarity people like to use). I cant imagine this ever coming to life.

You will get jail time if you don't pay the fine you get for not having auto insurance. Exactly what is being said here.

Thats not whats being talked about, and thats not the point. Jail for not paying a ticket != jail for not having insurance. VERY different. I'll restate the OP:

Jail for not purchasing insurance?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,737
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Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
You dont get jail time for not having auto insurance (a similarity people like to use). I cant imagine this ever coming to life.

You will get jail time if you don't pay the fine you get for not having auto insurance. Exactly what is being said here.

Thats not whats being talked about, and thats not the point. Jail for not paying a ticket != jail for not having insurance. VERY different. I'll restate the OP:

Jail for not purchasing insurance?

But if you read the link that he provides, the article in question states that the jail time would be for not paying the fine, or 'ticket' for not having insurance.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
You dont get jail time for not having auto insurance (a similarity people like to use). I cant imagine this ever coming to life.

You will get jail time if you don't pay the fine you get for not having auto insurance. Exactly what is being said here.

Thats not whats being talked about, and thats not the point. Jail for not paying a ticket != jail for not having insurance. VERY different. I'll restate the OP:

Jail for not purchasing insurance?

But if you read the link that he provides, the article in question states that the jail time would be for not paying the fine, or 'ticket' for not having insurance.

Beat me to it. If anything we have a (surprise, surprise) misleading argument.

With that said, I think this is overall a really dumb idea anyway you slice it. I think it is very unfair towards small business and does no address any true problems that cause so many American to be completely uncovered or even worse in my opinion, falsely believing they are covered when they are simply just throwing money away.


In my opinion, forcing people to buy into they horribly managed corrupt for profit system does nothing to make US health care and coverage better. We either need DRASTIC reform and overhaul of the for profit system or some sort of public option. Manage care needs to be significantly increased, med info technology has to be made a priority and costs need to fairly distributed instead of piled into other procedures for other patients.

Again, none of this is accomplished by forcing people to buy into the current system.


EDIT: It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Demo who passed out the note was one of the corporate demo's that have really been causing a lot of the delays and problems with new progressive plans. This fine and jail idea he is proposing only helps the huge for profit companies and hurts small businesses and their employees.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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So people can't afford insurance. Solution? Make them buy it anyway, and if they don't then fine and/or imprison them. The Republicans might just pull it off yet.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,737
54,755
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Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So people can't afford insurance. Solution? Make them buy it anyway, and if they don't then fine and/or imprison them. The Republicans might just pull it off yet.

That's a really dishonest depiction of this legislation and you know it.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So people can't afford insurance. Solution? Make them buy it anyway, and if they don't then fine and/or imprison them. The Republicans might just pull it off yet.

Yep, I can't wait to see how their plan would go:
1.) Gain Control
2.) ???
3.) Insurance is Fixed!
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So people can't afford insurance. Solution? Make them buy it anyway, and if they don't then fine and/or imprison them. The Republicans might just pull it off yet.

That's a really dishonest depiction of this legislation and you know it.

Ok, enlighten me because maybe I have it wrong.

I haven't had much time to be reading up on what's on the table this moment but my understanding is that health insurance would not be optional. If one doesn't get it, then the IRS can get at you.

I'd be glad to know if I'm wrong.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,737
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Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So people can't afford insurance. Solution? Make them buy it anyway, and if they don't then fine and/or imprison them. The Republicans might just pull it off yet.

That's a really dishonest depiction of this legislation and you know it.

Ok, enlighten me because maybe I have it wrong.

I haven't had much time to be reading up on what's on the table this moment but my understanding is that health insurance would not be optional. If one doesn't get it, then the IRS can get at you.

I'd be glad to know if I'm wrong.

Health insurance would not be optional, but the people who can't afford it have their insurance subsidized by the government so that they CAN afford it. The idea that poor people are suddenly going to start being fined by the IRS, etc. is not really accurate.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: eskimospy
If you get caught without insurance, you get a fine.

You mean "if you get caught driving without insurance, you get a fine."

Or in this case, people would just need to worry about getting caught living without insurance.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So people can't afford insurance. Solution? Make them buy it anyway, and if they don't then fine and/or imprison them. The Republicans might just pull it off yet.

That's a really dishonest depiction of this legislation and you know it.

Ok, enlighten me because maybe I have it wrong.

I haven't had much time to be reading up on what's on the table this moment but my understanding is that health insurance would not be optional. If one doesn't get it, then the IRS can get at you.

I'd be glad to know if I'm wrong.

Health insurance would not be optional, but the people who can't afford it have their insurance subsidized by the government so that they CAN afford it. The idea that poor people are suddenly going to start being fined by the IRS, etc. is not really accurate.

Who decides who can afford what? What happens if people have income, but not the cash flow because of current debt? If someone making 60K has less disposable income than someone else making half that because the balloon their mortgage hit or children's educational expenses eat up the paycheck, will they now have to declare bankruptcy to comply with the mandate? I know a family who has had crappy luck and don't have savings or much else despite the fact that they are earning over 100k. What about them? The bills don't go away.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
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Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So people can't afford insurance. Solution? Make them buy it anyway, and if they don't then fine and/or imprison them. The Republicans might just pull it off yet.

That's a really dishonest depiction of this legislation and you know it.

Ok, enlighten me because maybe I have it wrong.

I haven't had much time to be reading up on what's on the table this moment but my understanding is that health insurance would not be optional. If one doesn't get it, then the IRS can get at you.

I'd be glad to know if I'm wrong.

Health insurance would not be optional, but the people who can't afford it have their insurance subsidized by the government so that they CAN afford it. The idea that poor people are suddenly going to start being fined by the IRS, etc. is not really accurate.

Who decides who can afford what? What happens if people have income, but not the cash flow because of current debt? If someone making 60K has less disposable income than someone else making half that because the balloon their mortgage hit or children's educational expenses eat up the paycheck, will they now have to declare bankruptcy to comply with the mandate? I know a family who has had crappy luck and don't have savings or much else despite the fact that they are earning over 100k. What about them? The bills don't go away.

How dare you question the love and caring that our lawmakers are planning for us.

 

Athena

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
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0
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Who decides who can afford what? What happens if people have income, but not the cash flow because of current debt? If someone making 60K has less disposable income than someone else making half that because the balloon their mortgage hit or children's educational expenses eat up the paycheck, will they now have to declare bankruptcy to comply with the mandate? I know a family who has had crappy luck and don't have savings or much else despite the fact that they are earning over 100k. What about them? The bills don't go away.
Think about what is going on here...the discussion is not about whether or not the people who are swimming in debt will get health care; it's about how they can avoid being fined for not purchasing insurance. Suppose the family in your example managed to scrap up the premium for some high-deductible insurance policy, what is the likelihood that they would be able to actually use? IOW, how likely is it that they would seek the routine care that would comprise the deductible? And in if they actually had a medical emergency -- something that used up the entire deductible in one go -- what's the likelihood that debt would send them into bankruptcy? How does any of that make them healthier?

As with most of what is being discussed, this provision works against what should be the primary objective of reform: To ensure that every legal residents can obtain medical treatment when he needs it without bankrupting himself or the nation in the process. Anything less than that is nothing but a bailout for one industry or another.

Lost in the Shuffle: The Overarching Goals of Health Reform

1. Financial barriers should not stand between Americans and preventive or acute health care that they sincerely believe will address concerns over a troubling medical condition, in a timely manner, before that condition grows into a critically serious illness.

2. Having received needed health care, no American family should be so financially devastated by medical bills that it cannot meet routine daily living expenses ? for example, make utility or mortgage payments on time or finance the education of the family?s children.

3. The future growth in national health spending should be constrained to fall significantly below currently projected spending growth, which has the United States devoting about 40 percent of its G.D.P. to health care by midcentury
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: eskimospy
If you get caught without insurance, you get a fine.

You mean "if you get caught driving without insurance, you get a fine."

Or in this case, people would just need to worry about getting caught living without insurance.

Only if you are legal resident or citizen ;)

As to the topic on hand what will happen is many will purchase the cheapest insurance they can afford and find out how worthless it is when they go to use it, but they will count as being insured for some politicians statistic.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
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Originally posted by: 1prophet

snip...

As to the topic on hand what will happen is many will purchase the cheapest insurance they can afford and find out how worthless it is when they go to use it, but they will count as being insured for some politicians statistic.

Yep, there will be so many people selling worthless, government mandated "Health Insurance" to the unsuspecting that it will be difficult to tell the legitimate sellers from the scam artists.