blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
That's certainly true. I think though that we all have a responsibility to understand what is being proposed and the degree to which it will change the underlying dynamics. I want uiniversal healthcare. I believe that every US citizen should be able to obtain needed medical treatment in a timely manner and obtaining that treatment should not generate financial instability for him, his family, or the country.
Many countries have figured out how to achieve that objective...The current proposals in congress, all of which focus on delivering a captive market to the insurance industry, have virtually nothing to do with it.
brandonbull
Diamond Member
- May 3, 2005
- 6,365
- 1,223
- 126
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
Surely I'm not the only one who sees something fvcking demented with the government mandating that people buy private insurance, thus pumping up the few private insurers out there (only several of meaningful) with more clients. With auto, not only is it generally cheap but a lot of people don't even have cars.
And we thought the US government was a whore to lobbyists now, what about when virtually everyone in the country is a customer to one of these private groups?
Anyway, I'm barely paying attention now because the plan keep changing so much, nobody has a clue what's really going on so if the above ramblings are irrelevant, so be it.
And we thought the US government was a whore to lobbyists now, what about when virtually everyone in the country is a customer to one of these private groups?
Anyway, I'm barely paying attention now because the plan keep changing so much, nobody has a clue what's really going on so if the above ramblings are irrelevant, so be it.
Elias824
Golden Member
- Mar 13, 2007
- 1,100
- 0
- 76
They are not forcing people to buy it, however if you choose not to you get a tax penalty. Its not like its a requirement for citizenship. Its to protect the rest of society from their irresponsibility. Though I may be wrong, the plan changes every other day, anyone know how much the penalty is supposed to be?
I really wouldnt say this bill is doing any favors to the insurance companies, yes it is forcing alot of people to go out a get health insurance, but it is also forcing the insurance companies to cover far more then they used to, in terms of pre-existing conditions, and preventing them from dropping people on a whim. That and they will also have greater competition from the co-ops or public option or whatever it is that they are doing now.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
Then rates will go up. The not dropping for pre-existing coverage is a huge red-herring. Anybody with preexisting condition can get insurance (or most) if they pay enough. All this is doing is making it so that the insurance companies have to build it into their models across the board and then the cost is shared among the rest.
Elias824
Golden Member
- Mar 13, 2007
- 1,100
- 0
- 76
well I dont think alot of people with pre-existing conditions can get coverage, sometimes its just to much of a red flag. I do agree though rates will go up at best they would stay the same, I think most of the bills largely avoid the big problem of how expensive care really has gotten, but then I dont know what reasonable solution to that would be. The other problem is that its so hard for anyone to try to get anything through for health care reform, so in turn the bills end up being gigantic so they can try to fix it all at once because they know they may not get another chance to change anything at all.
Incorrect. There are lots of people out there (like me) who cannot get private insurance at any price. Cancer, Diabetes, lots of things can render you uninsurable. Furthermore, nearly all private plans and high risk pools have exemptions for pre-existing conditions that preclude their coverage under the plan... so you can't get treatment for what you're actually ill from.
It's not a red herring in the slightest, it's a fucking outrage. I can never leave my work or my school to become self employed, as I can never get insurance. My choice of jobs is inexplicably tied to how good their health benefits plan is. All I can say is thank god this health care bill looks like it's going to pass and eliminate this shit.
It will cover everyone, cover everything, cost half as much, and pay Doctors twice as much! Barack Hussein Obama.. mmm mmm mmmm...
And THAT is what would spark revolution should it come to pass. It's not acceptable to mandate participation in a private industry. There MUST be an opt-out option, public option, conscientious objector option, or something similar. The alternative is open warfare in our streets.
This just can't be.
Either the people writing the article are wrong or every Republican in here wrong.
9-28-09 Canada outranks U.S. in healthcare report card, U.S. the worst
The annual report card by the Conference Board of Canada ranked Canada 10th out of 16 developed countries, with a "B" grade.
The United States was the worst performer, placing 16th and earning a "D" grade.
Rank Country Grade
1 Japan A
2 Switzerland A
3 Italy A
4 Norway A
5 Sweden B
6 France B
7 Finland B
8 Germany B
9 Australia B
10 Canada B
11 Netherlands C
12 Austria C
13 Ireland C
14 United Kingdom D
15 Denmark D
16 United States D
Either the people writing the article are wrong or every Republican in here wrong.
9-28-09 Canada outranks U.S. in healthcare report card, U.S. the worst
The annual report card by the Conference Board of Canada ranked Canada 10th out of 16 developed countries, with a "B" grade.
The United States was the worst performer, placing 16th and earning a "D" grade.
Rank Country Grade
1 Japan A
2 Switzerland A
3 Italy A
4 Norway A
5 Sweden B
6 France B
7 Finland B
8 Germany B
9 Australia B
10 Canada B
11 Netherlands C
12 Austria C
13 Ireland C
14 United Kingdom D
15 Denmark D
16 United States D
Bullshit. That's EXACTLY What this legislation is. It's giving the nation to the insurance and health care industry on a silver platter, with legal ramifications if you dissent.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Nope. The IRS has a bevy of collection tools, jail time is not among them.
Jail/prison is reserved for criminal tax fraud. No jail/prison time even for civil tax fraud.
Anyhoo, I see little-to-no chance this will pass. Too may reasons it won't. I suspect they'll just end up using the IRS's existing collection tools.
I would think this more a 'poison pill' provision than anything serious.
Fern
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Good, hope you are the first incarcerated since obviously you have no intention on complying.
I won't be going to jail, I'll be going to the morgue, along with as many fascists as I can fit into my sights on my way down. I don't believe in non-violent protest. I believe in armed revolution.
It isn't hard to prevent the kind of violence that this would cause. Either:
A) Include a public option (no insurance involved)
B) Don't make it mandatory
C) Include an opt-out for reasons of moral objection or other valid excuse
That's all it needs, and I'm fine with it.
brandonbull
Diamond Member
- May 3, 2005
- 6,365
- 1,223
- 126
Read the components of the grades.
Several of the items have nothing to do with the healthcare industry. Countries that are big time nanny states should rank higher. The US gets a bad score because we have a very unhealthy lifestyle. Morons relate this to healthcare when it relates to our ability to have personal freedoms.
Well this is certainly a reasonable post. If you're going to go out in a blaze of glory killing police officers from your concrete paranoia bunker over health insurance, you need to seek therapy.
Wouldn't you rather just move to another country without mandated health insurance?
No, only the ignorant or pussies give up their national heritage rather than fight for what is right. If your attitude had prevailed a couple hundred years ago Starbucks would be the worlds biggest tea and crumpet franchise.
I don't move just because a bunch of stupid people got elected by even more stupid people and decided to sell the nation off to big business. I take up my weapon and declare clearly - NOT ME. It's up to those in government to question rather the price is too high. Right now they've forgotten that, and it's cost the citizens dearly. They're about to receive an extremely abrupt wake-up call.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
That's a real good point, and something that has been bothering me for a while.
Income != cash flow.
This is particularly true for the self-employed and other small business owners. If you're an employee your debt is likely from buying a home, a car or some other consumer goods. Accordingly, some may say that those people complaining are living beyond their means (But what about those who help support their parents? What about those trying to get their children a better eductaion and pay for private schools? They won't have nearly the cash flow available that their income would suggest)
Anyway, people who are self-employed or own small businesses use debt to either start that business or buy it. The principal payments on that debt are not deductible and therefore won't reduce income. So, their income is often much higher than their cash-flow.
H3ll, for that matter pretty much anyone who invests in real estate will have this problem (less cash flow than their income indicates).
Likewise, some will show very little income on their tax returns yet have a ton of money.
I wish somebody in Washington would realize how poor tax return numbers are, it's just another major problem built into this whole HC reform.
Fern
Okay then, therapy it is? Not that I actually believe internet tough guys, but still it might be a good idea for anger issues if nothing else. (by the way, I find it interesting that you would mention colonial America, a place largely made up of people who abandoned their national heritage.)
Perhaps you misunderstood my post. There are most certainly things in this world worth fighting for, but declaring war on the government for mandating something that you probably either already have or should dearly want if you do not, may not be a reasonable response. Might want to get that checked out.
And then banded together (at least part of them) and risked obliteration to fight for the new one they made for themselves rather than just moving on again. However if you're aware of any large tracts of unclaimed land let me know and I'd be happy to go settle them.
I do not have any form of insurance and will never again have any form of insurance. I used to have auto insurance, though it always chaffed. After doing a major paper on the evils of the insurance industry I finally couldn't stand it any longer so I sold my car.
I've had health insurance a couple times in my life for a few months to a couple years at a time. I haven't had it several years however, and never will again. I will NOT support unregulated, private insurance in any form. It is always wrong, and always harmful to the general population in the long term.
Moreover any government which mandates participation in a for-profit private industry is utterly and totally corrupted and in need of serious reform. If you can't see that then we probably don't have much to discuss.
I happen to agree with you that the concept of for-profit insurance is pretty silly, as it screws up the basic principles of commerce. (the insurance company's profits depending on giving as few people as possible the service they are paying for)
I can respect your opposition to insurance, but what you are doing is foolish. If you are diagnosed with a serious illness, you will be dead or bankrupt in short order, or if you are given charity care it will be coming out of the pockets of the rest of us. When I was diagnosed with cancer, I ran up $200,000 in medical bills in the span of 12 days. Don't think it can't happen to you too. Do you want to burden your life or the lives of your family with that sort of thing?
Work towards supporting candidates that are trying to get rid of our for profit insurance system. (there are lots of them) Work towards educating people about how badly it sucks. Declaring war on the cops over such a small aspect of your life doesn't make any sense.
That's no different than people with insurance being told they're not covered, or running out of coverage because of the skyrocketing costs of health care. Bankruptcy is nothing to me, I haven't had a job in over a year. So long as costs outstrip earnings (not just in health care, but in general) that's going to happen more, and more, and more.
I live now on a cash only basis. I don't use banks, don't EVER use credit, etc. All my money is saved and spent only as needed. If an emergency strikes that will just have to cover it, or I'll find another way, or I'll die. *shrug* not that big of a deal regardless.
If I get insurance it will come out of the rest of your pockets too, since that's how insurance works. You'll be paying to cover me.
The two (education and revolution) aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, either is a form of the other. JUST education is no longer enough though, because there are too many stupid people and too many evil people working against you as an individual. At this point, they need to fear for their lives when they make a decision.
I think you're wrong. I don't think it's small at all. I think it's equivalent to wiping your ass with the Constitution. Telling us we're slaves and slapping a collar around our necks. I think it's equivalent to an ultimatum: surrender your lives totally to us or we'll force you to jail. I think it's the last straw in a LONG line of abuses of individual liberty and freedom. I think if there are enough cops that would go along with it just because its there jobs then there are too many people wearing uniforms that don't deserve to, and I'll be happy to thin them out. I think anyone that supports it is a bad human being who is attempting to control the lives of other human beings, and I'll be happy to thin them out. I think the government has gotten spoiled because people won't make it tough for politicians and that needs to change. I think bad people DESERVE to hurt or die, and I'm not afraid to make that happen when all other options have failed in order to stand for what is good, and right, and true, and just.
That's just the way I see it.
PJABBER
Diamond Member
- Feb 8, 2001
- 4,822
- 0
- 0
It is very important to understand that if this plan passes it will be the first time that the government will require people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States.
Think about that for a moment. If you are required to buy this "service" you will also now have a precedent should the government get the idea that you are required to pay for other "services" that you may not want or need, so that others that do will have access.
Now label it. What word comes to mind to describe involuntary appropriation by government?
Rhetorical Tax Evasion
Rhetorical Tax Evasion
The IRS says it will fine or jail you for not paying Obama's mandate levy.
Wall Street Journal
SEPTEMBER 29, 2009
President Obama's effort to deny that his mandate to buy insurance is a tax has taken another thumping, this time from fellow Democrats in the Senate Finance Committee.
Chairman Max Baucus's bill includes the so-called individual mandate, along with what he calls a $1,900 "excise tax" if you don't buy health insurance. (It had been as much as $3,800 but Democrats reduced the amount last week to minimize the political sticker shock.) And, lo, it turns out that if you don't pay that tax, the IRS could punish you with a $25,000 fine or up to a year in jail, or both.
Under questioning last week, Tom Barthold, the chief of staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation, admitted that the individual mandate would become a part of the Internal Revenue Code and that failing to comply "could be criminal, yes, if it were considered an attempt to defraud." Mr. Barthold noted in a follow-up letter that the willful failure to file would be a simple misdemeanor, punishable by the $25,000 fine or jail time under Section 7203.
So failure to pay the mandate would be enforced like tax evasion, but Mr. Obama still claims it isn't a tax. "You can't just make up that language and decide that that's called a tax increase," Mr. Obama insisted last week to ABC interviewer George Stephanopoulos. Accusing critics of dishonesty is becoming this President's default argument, but is Mr. Barthold also part of the plot?
In the 1994 health-care debate, the Congressional Budget Office called the individual mandate "an unprecedented form of federal action." This is because "The government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States."
This coercion will be even more onerous today because everyone will be forced to buy insurance that the new taxes and regulations of ObamaCare will make far more expensive. Too bad Mr. Obama's rhetorical tax evasion can't be punished by the IRS.
****************************
Internal Revenue Code 26 USC 7203 - Sec. 7203.
Willful failure to file return, supply information, or pay tax
Any person required under this title to pay any estimated tax or tax, or required by this title or by regulations made under authority thereof to make a return, keep any records, or supply any information, who willfully fails to pay such estimated tax or tax, make such return, keep such records, or supply such information, at the time or times required by law or regulations, shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $25,000 ($100,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, together with the costs of prosecution. In the case of any person with respect to whom there is a failure to pay any estimated tax, this section shall not apply to such person with respect to such failure if there is no addition to tax under section 6654 or 6655 with respect to such failure. In the case of a willful violation of any provision of section 6050I, the first sentence of this section shall be applied by substituting ''felony'' for ''misdemeanor'' and ''5 years'' for ''1 year''.
Think about that for a moment. If you are required to buy this "service" you will also now have a precedent should the government get the idea that you are required to pay for other "services" that you may not want or need, so that others that do will have access.
Now label it. What word comes to mind to describe involuntary appropriation by government?
Rhetorical Tax Evasion
Rhetorical Tax Evasion
The IRS says it will fine or jail you for not paying Obama's mandate levy.
Wall Street Journal
SEPTEMBER 29, 2009
President Obama's effort to deny that his mandate to buy insurance is a tax has taken another thumping, this time from fellow Democrats in the Senate Finance Committee.
Chairman Max Baucus's bill includes the so-called individual mandate, along with what he calls a $1,900 "excise tax" if you don't buy health insurance. (It had been as much as $3,800 but Democrats reduced the amount last week to minimize the political sticker shock.) And, lo, it turns out that if you don't pay that tax, the IRS could punish you with a $25,000 fine or up to a year in jail, or both.
Under questioning last week, Tom Barthold, the chief of staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation, admitted that the individual mandate would become a part of the Internal Revenue Code and that failing to comply "could be criminal, yes, if it were considered an attempt to defraud." Mr. Barthold noted in a follow-up letter that the willful failure to file would be a simple misdemeanor, punishable by the $25,000 fine or jail time under Section 7203.
So failure to pay the mandate would be enforced like tax evasion, but Mr. Obama still claims it isn't a tax. "You can't just make up that language and decide that that's called a tax increase," Mr. Obama insisted last week to ABC interviewer George Stephanopoulos. Accusing critics of dishonesty is becoming this President's default argument, but is Mr. Barthold also part of the plot?
In the 1994 health-care debate, the Congressional Budget Office called the individual mandate "an unprecedented form of federal action." This is because "The government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States."
This coercion will be even more onerous today because everyone will be forced to buy insurance that the new taxes and regulations of ObamaCare will make far more expensive. Too bad Mr. Obama's rhetorical tax evasion can't be punished by the IRS.
****************************
Internal Revenue Code 26 USC 7203 - Sec. 7203.
Willful failure to file return, supply information, or pay tax
Any person required under this title to pay any estimated tax or tax, or required by this title or by regulations made under authority thereof to make a return, keep any records, or supply any information, who willfully fails to pay such estimated tax or tax, make such return, keep such records, or supply such information, at the time or times required by law or regulations, shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $25,000 ($100,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, together with the costs of prosecution. In the case of any person with respect to whom there is a failure to pay any estimated tax, this section shall not apply to such person with respect to such failure if there is no addition to tax under section 6654 or 6655 with respect to such failure. In the case of a willful violation of any provision of section 6050I, the first sentence of this section shall be applied by substituting ''felony'' for ''misdemeanor'' and ''5 years'' for ''1 year''.
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