Jahi McMath - just let her (body) die already.

[momeNt]

Why are most people here supporting the belief that "whole brain death" is "real death" and in the same breath saying to "let her die"? She's already dead.

Why are you guys wanting her parents to bury her. Not every family buries their dead, some burn, some preserve, others put them on expensive medical equipment because they aren't ready to let go.

I don't really see why the government or people in general have any input in the grieving process of families.

 

[nehalem256]

If the family wants to keep the body alive on their own dime; so be it, not hurting anyone.

It damages society. Because the longer we let this drag out the more people will think acting like this is normal and rational.

 

[momeNt]

It damages society. Because the longer we let this drag out the more people will think acting like this is normal and rational.

So what if more people think this is normal, how does this harm you?

 

[zinfamous]

I don't really see why the government or people in general have any input in the grieving process of families.

as mentioned, the family is sucking up resources with their dead daughter that would go to other patients, and yes--it is costing everyone.

Thing is, they aren't grieving yet. They think she will "snap out of it." I think most would prefer them to begin the grieving process sooner.

 

[zinfamous]

So what if more people think this is normal, how does this harm you?

It harms everyone when they set an example that rejecting acceptance of death is suddenly OK. When, after being rejected by 6 other hospitals, they finally find ome newage pseudowhakjob facility that will agree to host their child's corpse.

It sets a bad precedent because it makes for terrible and incredibly expensive medical care.

People, when it comes to emergency medical situations, tend to live in fantasy land because of what they see on TV--they think beating on someone's chest to get their heart started in the emergency room is both normal, and highly effective. They think people "snap out!" of comas all the time, that a vegetative state is not only the end, but is somehow graceful.

The longer this circus show drags on, the more people begin to think something is actually changing with this girl, that she somehow stops being dead. That, if they ever find themselves in the same situation, maybe they should pull the same shenanigans.

 

[momeNt]

It harms everyone when they set an example that rejecting acceptance of death is suddenly OK. When, after being rejected by 6 other hospitals, they finally find ome newage pseudowhakjob facility that will agree to host their child's corpse.

It sets a bad precedent because it makes for terrible and incredibly expensive medical care.

Should I be fined for every bottle of water I don't finish too?

Or is THIS PARTICULAR waste of resources where you want to draw the line.

There is a lot of resources tied up in cemeteries, would you like them all exhumed and cremated, and all future deaths to be cremated?

If they are earning their money fair and square, and a hospital is willing to accept them, I'm sure any action to by a government to try and regulate their actions end up costing more resources in the long run. So if you really want to try and preserve resources, I'd let the story die.

 

[nehalem256]

Why are most people here supporting the belief that "whole brain death" is "real death" and in the same breath saying to "let her die"? She's already dead.

Because the English language isn't really constructed to talk about situations like this. As well as a certain sympathy for the grieving parents.

Perhaps instead we should refer to it as "stop having the parents animate her corpse". But that sounds a bit harsh.

Part of the problem I think is that the courts let her parents animate her corpse through the holidays. It sends the signal to both society, and the parents, that they are acting at least somewhat reasonably. Which makes it harder for the parents to let go.

 

[Jaskalas]

It appears she cannot breathe on her own? The body is still warm and is not decaying, she is no corpse. Yet she's in a worse state than Terri Schiavo was. We simply do not have the capacity to save people from this condition.

She's not getting care, she's getting prolonged vegetative state.

 

[nehalem256]

It appears she cannot breathe on her own? The body is still warm and is not decaying, she is no corpse. Yet she's in a worse state than Terri Schiavo was. We simply do not have the capacity to save people from this condition.

She's not getting care, she's getting prolonged vegetative state.

The attorney for the family of Jahi McMath said this week the 13-year-old girl's body has deteriorated badly since she was declared brain-dead at an Oakland hospital, but it's an inevitable end, according to a physician's declaration filed in court during the battle to keep her on a ventilator.

The deterioration of Jahi's body is now the only possible course and "became inevitable the moment she died," according to a court declaration from Dr. Heidi Flori, a critical care physician at Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland, which had sought to remove the teen from the ventilator after she was declared brain dead Dec. 12.

"The medical team and I believe that additional and more dramatic signs of the body's deterioration will continue to manifest over time, regardless of any procedures and regardless of any heroic measures that any facility in the country might attempt," Flori said in the declaration filed in U.S. District Court.
"Mechanical support and other measures taken to maintain an illusion of life where none exists cannot maintain that illusion indefinitely," she added.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...rating-20140108,0,4831276.story#axzz2pv2P3qui

Sounds like a corpse to me.

 

[Jaskalas]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...rating-20140108,0,4831276.story#axzz2pv2P3qui

Sounds like a corpse to me.

... what... the.... !@#$.

This has gone well beyond whatever I imagined it to be. I'm thinking brain dead person in a coma with machines to keep the lungs working. Not...whatever it is that's being described there, which I'm not sure I've got a grasp on yet.

Just going to back up slowly... and shake my head.

 

[Ns1]

oh but wait, it gets worse

Lawyer: Brain-dead teen Jahi McMath 'improving' under 'optimistic' doctors' care

(CNN) -- Under the care of "optimistic" doctors, Jahi McMath -- whom a judge and other doctors have declared brain-dead, over her family's objections -- is "improving" days after her release from an Oakland, California, hospital, her family's lawyer said.
Attorney Chris Dolan detailed some of what's happened to the 13-year-old girl since her release Sunday from Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland. Specifically, he said that after initially "doing poorly she is stabilizing," having had tracheotomy and gastrostomy tube procedures.

"She is doing very well and getting the treatment she should have gotten 28 days ago," Dolan said, referring to what happened to Jahi after a December operation.
"Doctors are optimistic that her condition has stabilized and that her health is improving from when she was taken from (the Oakland hospital)."

The family hasn't said where the eighth-grader currently is. Dolan has declined to say if she had been transferred to another facility and, if so, to describe that facility.
Instead, they have chosen to lay low as they continue their efforts to care for Jahi. Dolan said the family needs to "heal up from this whole experience" and have "some quiet time" away from media questions.

"(The) family is seeking to focus attention on Jahi," added the lawyer.

CNN could not independently verify Dolan's account about what's happened to the young California teen. Still, his account's upbeat nature adds yet another level of intrigue to what's been an emotional and complicated story.

Jahi underwent a December 9 operation at the Northern California hospital to remove her tonsils, adenoids and extra sinus tissue.


Doctors had recommended the surgery to treat pediatric obstructive sleep apnea, a condition that made her stop breathing in her sleep and caused other medical problems.
The teen girl was alert and talking to doctors after the procedure, even asking for a Popsicle because her throat hurt. That was a relief in some ways because she'd expressed concerns to her family about the surgery, fearing she would never wake up from it, her uncle has said.

Due to privacy laws, hospital officials have not been able to discuss Jahi's case in detail.
In the hospital's intensive care unit, however, the girl started to bleed, her family has said, and she went into cardiac arrest. Days later, she was declared brain-dead. A judge later sided with the hospital in declaring her dead.

The family, however, did not agree.

That conflict played into a weeks-long battle between the hospital, which wanted to remove Jahi from a ventilator, and her family, who believed she was showing signs of life.
The entire ordeal fueled a sweeping national debate about what legally and ethically constitutes death.

Some medical ethicists have said the case has fed into a misperception that "brain death" is not death; that somehow, the body can live on, and that is life.
It's also sparked fierce emotion, and that is another reason the family is keeping quiet about where the girl will be taken.

"We've had people make threats from around the country," Dolan, who said he and the girl's uncle have received such threats, has told CNN. "It's sad that people act that way."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/08/health/jahi-mcmath-update/

 

[umbrella39]

Be careful, suggesting that she be removed from life support could be considered racist.

This will throw the scent off your trail for sure...

 

[umbrella39]

Thats more misinformation from the media that you heard. Her surgery was anything but minor. She had three surgeries done on her in one go...The tonsillectomy is usually considered minor however the other two are not minor at all [the media only talks about the tonsillectomy]. Her other two surgeries were a uvulopalatopharyngoplasty, and the removal of nasal turbinates was the third surgery. The latter two surgeries are high risk, its very possible you can bleed to death hours or even days after one of those surgeries [Jahi basically bled to death it sounds like].

As for them keeping her "alive", it is silly by this point. I understood why they kept her on a ventilator until after new years/Christmas, but the family is only basking in their denial now. That girl hasnt had oxygen to her brain in almost a month...It only takes 5 min to suffer severe brain damage, shes 100000% gone.

This 100%. As a respiratory therapist we see this surgery come across the surgery list every once in a while. It is most often, but not always, as a last resort on morbidly obese patients that are either non compliant with their CPAPS or whose settings have outgrown their device. Not as an way to continue to avoid living a health lifestyle, eating healthy, and losing the obstruction that was affecting her breathing at night in the first place. People bleed out sometimes during this surgery though it would not surprise me in the least bit if a family member fed her. I see it almost every day. Family members sneaking Mcds or whatever in and giving it to people who are restricted diets or even NPO. They don't care. Gotta eat.

Anyhow, here is a good link to a doc filed by one of the pediatric intensivists assigned to her case:

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf

Lays out the post-mortem bodily deterioration she is going through. This is not a Terry Sciavo case, this girl is dead; the body doesn't lie.

 

[zinfamous]

Should I be fined for every bottle of water I don't finish too?

Or is THIS PARTICULAR waste of resources where you want to draw the line.

There is a lot of resources tied up in cemeteries, would you like them all exhumed and cremated, and all future deaths to be cremated?

If they are earning their money fair and square, and a hospital is willing to accept them, I'm sure any action to by a government to try and regulate their actions end up costing more resources in the long run. So if you really want to try and preserve resources, I'd let the story die.

No hospital is willing to accept them. None. They only found a newage hippy commune--the kind that decapitates and freezes a dead Ted Williams and makes you think he can be reanimated at some future time.

that's the point.

and finishing a bottle of water versus keeping a corpse in a bed that can be used for someone with a chance at recovery?

Are you picking up some nehalisms or something?

 

[umbrella39]

So what if more people think this is normal, how does this harm you?

Because we (speaking of my profession only, nurses have their own set of requirements), by law, have to go perform a vent check every 4-6 hours, give her bid treatments, and frequently suction the copious amounts of thick tan/bloody/lung sloughing secretions. She is taking up an ICU bed and all of us RT, RN, PCT, MD, ect. are wasting resources, time, energy, on a dead person and not able to provide as much attention to the other ICU patients that need us. These families are usually very needy and hit the call light every 10 minutes. So yes, pulling us away from patients that can benefit from our care does harm them.

 

[tynopik]

So yes, pulling us away from patients that can benefit from our care does harm them.

If they're paying for the treatment, and it sounds like they are, then the facility can afford the extra staffing/shifts/overtime/whatever

the availability of nurses is elastic, and if the facility doesn't have enough to cover what is going on, they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[momeNt]

Because we (speaking of my profession only, nurses have their own set of requirements), by law, have to go perform a vent check every 4-6 hours, give her bid treatments, and frequently suction the copious amounts of thick tan/bloody/lung sloughing secretions. She is taking up an ICU bed and all of us RT, RN, PCT, MD, ect. are wasting resources, time, energy, on a dead person and not able to provide as much attention to the other ICU patients that need us. These families are usually very needy and hit the call light every 10 minutes. So yes, pulling us away from patients that can benefit from our care does harm them.

That's the problem with being in the service industry.

Look at it this way though, you get paid either way, so you need to stop thinking you are doing anything other than just exchanging your services for someone's money. On top of that, while you aren't helping the patient, you are helping the family cope, and again, still getting paid.

 

[Wreckem]

If they're paying for the treatment, and it sounds like they are, then the facility can afford the extra staffing/shifts/overtime/whatever

the availability of nurses is elastic, and if the facility doesn't have enough to cover what is going on, they have no one to blame but themselves.

They have raised $49k. That doesn't even cover a week of expenses, let alone the 20+ days prior to being transferred out of the hospital.

 

[Wreckem]

... what... the.... !@#$.

This has gone well beyond whatever I imagined it to be. I'm thinking brain dead person in a coma with machines to keep the lungs working. Not...whatever it is that's being described there, which I'm not sure I've got a grasp on yet.

Just going to back up slowly... and shake my head.

Brain death(death), a vegetative state, and a coma are THREE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. The first case a person is dead, in the second and third instances, the person is very much alive and their body isn't necessarily on mechanical support, only nutritional(feeding tubes, iv's). In the second case, the person is alive but not there and will never be there. The third instance, the person is alive and can possibly wake up.

In this case she is brain dead. Her brain has not had blood flow for almost 1 month. Her brain is entirely dead. It ceases to function. Without her brain her heart and lungs, and every other system DO NOT FUNCTION without artificial mechanical support.

Her heart and lungs are on mechanical support. Without said mechanical support her body would stop functioning pretty rapidly. Note I didn't say die pretty rapidly because she is ALREADY DEAD.

 

[Wreckem]

oh but wait, it gets worse



http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/08/health/jahi-mcmath-update/

Her body may be stable, but she is and will always be dead. They can keep a corpse stable for a long time.

 

[nehalem256]

Her heart and lungs are on mechanical support. Without said mechanical support her body would stop functioning pretty rapidly. Note I didn't say die pretty rapidly because she is ALREADY DEAD.

So basically her family is using mechanical support to animate her corpse and the courts have playing along with this for weeks D:

 

[Ns1]

from CNN comments;

AnnieGetYourGum TiredOfSilly1 • 3 hours ago
Read the remarks from another sick child's father, who was nearby the spectacle that was Jahi's post-op recovery bed. According to him, mom and grandma -- the latter woman is/was a nurse -- were feeding the just-out-of-surgery child bites from their Big Macs before the bleeding started. They weren't letting her rest, and were keeping the girl talking.

I hope the hospital stands their ground against this group of opportunistic, negligent nitwits.

I read this too . The girl had major surgery for the sleep apnea - it involves removing the uvula and part of the soft palate. Mouth tissues have very high blood supplies. The family was told she'd be on a liquid diet while she healed and the mom/grandma gave her some of their cheeseburgers because Jahi was complaining she was hungry after surgery. THAT would cause sutures to tear open and heavy bleeding/hemorrhaging to occur. The other patient's dad reported this.

anyone got a legit source?

 

[blankslate]

Just be glad this person isn't in FL

or we could have a replay the very public Terry Schiavo case

 

[peonyu]

Just be glad this person isn't in FL

or we could have a replay the very public Terry Schiavo case

Not true, Schiavo had some brain function and she could breathe on her own...She was not brain dead but severely brain damaged instead. This girl has no brain. At all. What remains of her brain is just mushy liquid since she hasnt had oxygen to her head in a month now.

The situations between these two people are brought up alot but they are not at all similar, Jahi could be in FL and she would be declared dead just as she was in CA.

 

[zinfamous]

If they're paying for the treatment, and it sounds like they are, then the facility can afford the extra staffing/shifts/overtime/whatever

the availability of nurses is elastic, and if the facility doesn't have enough to cover what is going on, they have no one to blame but themselves.

they are paying to rent bed space for a corpse. living people need treatment.

.....

..
.

none of you would accept that. not a chance.