I've come to a realization regarding this board re: the mideast

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: blackllotus
To all the "peace advocates" out there I want to ask, what does a cease-fire do? A cease-fire will only result in more deaths in the long run because it doesn't fix anything. Just look at how long cease-fires last with Palestine.

Also it's utterly obscene that some of the so-called "peace advocates" associate Israel with Nazis and then victimize Hezbollah. People here are shitting themselves because Israel has killed more people than Hezbollah, but what the hell did they expect? Is Israel supposed to try and "keep even" with Hezbollah in terms of casualties. When we attacked Afghanistan we ended up killing some civilians. A country declares war on the government, but inevitably ends up killing some of the civilians. Its inevitable and, yes, it is terribly unfair, however don't bitch and moan about Israel if you can't even come up with a realistic alternative for eliminating Hezbollah.

Hezbollah is literally a social organization focused on making the lives of its citizens better as well as involved in the politics and defense of Lebanon, they're not some ragtag terrorist organization. The solution would be to have them merge into the Lebanese army and formally become part of mainstream Lebanese politics. The UN could pressure them into doing so if they gave them the same recognition and respect Israel is given and right now that's far from reality. Furthermore, the issue of Israel detaining thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese would also have to be resolved; Calling for their destruction and disarmament isn't going to fly.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Hezbollah is literally a social organization focused on making the lives of its citizens better as well as involved in the politics and defense of Lebanon, they're not some ragtag terrorist organization. The solution would be to have them merge into the Lebanese army and formally become part of mainstream Lebanese politics. The UN could pressure them into doing so if they gave them the same recognition and respect Israel is given and right now that's far from reality. Furthermore, the issue of Israel detaining thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese would also have to be resolved; Calling for their destruction and disarmament isn't going to fly.

Hezbollah IS a terrorist organization (remember bombings at Buenos Aires at '94? Marines? US Embassy?), and has much more to do with Iran than with Lebanon politics.
It's DELCARED aim is carrying on the Islamic revolution into Lebanon.

They will NEVER disarm as they don't aim to integrate into the Lebanese politics. They've created a state-within-state in the south for a reason.

Just FYI.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Hezbollah is literally a social organization focused on making the lives of its citizens better as well as involved in the politics and defense of Lebanon, they're not some ragtag terrorist organization. The solution would be to have them merge into the Lebanese army and formally become part of mainstream Lebanese politics. The UN could pressure them into doing so if they gave them the same recognition and respect Israel is given and right now that's far from reality. Furthermore, the issue of Israel detaining thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese would also have to be resolved; Calling for their destruction and disarmament isn't going to fly.

Hezbollah IS a terrorist organization (remember bombings at Buenos Aires at '94? Marines? US Embassy?), and has much more to do with Iran than with Lebanon politics.
It's DELCARED aim is carrying on the Islamic revolution into Lebanon.

They will NEVER disarm as they don't aim to integrate into the Lebanese politics. They've created a state-within-state in the south for a reason.

Just FYI.

They're only considered a terrorist organization by the US, the EU has formal relations with them.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Are we going to cut off aid to every other country in the world we send money to? Or just Israel?

Israel can't sustain itself without our money ?

If the US was not there for Israel, Russia and China would be. I don't think the US wants that. Every country will do what it's best interests dictate. If the US felt it wasn't in it's best interest to support Israel, they wouldn't.

LOL Russia and China would have no interest in giving Israel the kind of preferential treatment it gets from the US. The US has a huge pro-Israeli lobby, I doubt you'd find the same sort of influence in the aforementioned countries--well maybe somewhat in Russia but definitely not China.

Actually, they'd probably give Israel much BETTER treatment. Their need for advanced military hardware and technology is much more than that of the US. Israel is a world leader in the development of many different types of advanced military technologies. Don't be silly and think it's all because of AIPAC and just about every US administration since Truman was completely fooled by them, yet you see right through it all.

Yes I know all about Israel turning around and selling advanced US military tech to China. However once that fountain of technology is cut off, Israel wouldn't be in the same position. They simply do not have the budget to support massive military R&D projects. It's because of joint US/Israeli efforts that Israel has benefited so much (and backstabbed the USA).

Sure they would not have the budget to do it on their own, which is precisely why another country, perhaps Russia or China would gladly step in. That's exactly the point I was making.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: blackllotus
To all the "peace advocates" out there I want to ask, what does a cease-fire do? A cease-fire will only result in more deaths in the long run because it doesn't fix anything. Just look at how long cease-fires last with Palestine.

Also it's utterly obscene that some of the so-called "peace advocates" associate Israel with Nazis and then victimize Hezbollah. People here are shiting themselves because Israel has killed more people than Hezbollah, but what the hell did they expect? Is Israel supposed to try and "keep even" with Hezbollah in terms of casualties? When we attacked Afghanistan we ended up killing some civilians. A country declares war on the government, but inevitably ends up killing some of the civilians. Its inevitable and, yes, it is terribly unfair, however don't bitch and moan about Israel if you can't even come up with a realistic alternative for eliminating Hezbollah.

What is obscene is you people giving free pass to Israel when they have killed more civilians even compared to terrorist organizations. In addition to civilian death, they have brought destruction to cities and infrastructrues, and making millions homeless, jobless and without any hope in life.

And since when did Lebanon declared a war against Israel? The only people declared war is Hezbollah and they do not represent Lebanon, so what gives Israel the right to start killing Lebanese civilian?

You talk about how cease fire always failed? Well that's because both side never acted with restrain and give it a chance. In 2000, Sharon had to visit temple mount, and IDF had to fire real bullets at protesting crowds throwing stones, ended up killing civilians. In 2006, Israel have to shell Gaza and ended up killing civilians. You have to understand that Palestine and Lebanon is messed up and nobody controls those militias from doing stupid stuff. But if you take it out on civilians everytime those terrorist group do something to you, the only thing you did is making their claims justifed, and giving more credibility to their attacks. In the end, more people join the terrorist group, and more violence come around.

If you really want solutions. Here is how it is. Defend youself against attacks but not go all out with offense and destroy everything in Palestine and Lebanon. Instead, help them with economy, help people from refugee camps to have real home, jobs. Give those people a chance with normal life. Then we will see how many people with a family, food on the table and good job want to join sucide squads and kill themselves. This is a long term solution, and this solution don't give you instant gratification with all the killing and showing off how tough you are. And this probably don't give Israeli politicians the vote when lots of Israelis wants blood, regardless of whose blood. But if you really want peace, that is the only way to go.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Are we going to cut off aid to every other country in the world we send money to? Or just Israel?

Israel can't sustain itself without our money ?

If the US was not there for Israel, Russia and China would be. I don't think the US wants that. Every country will do what it's best interests dictate. If the US felt it wasn't in it's best interest to support Israel, they wouldn't.

LOL Russia and China would have no interest in giving Israel the kind of preferential treatment it gets from the US. The US has a huge pro-Israeli lobby, I doubt you'd find the same sort of influence in the aforementioned countries--well maybe somewhat in Russia but definitely not China.

Actually, they'd probably give Israel much BETTER treatment. Their need for advanced military hardware and technology is much more than that of the US. Israel is a world leader in the development of many different types of advanced military technologies. Don't be silly and think it's all because of AIPAC and just about every US administration since Truman was completely fooled by them, yet you see right through it all.

Yes I know all about Israel turning around and selling advanced US military tech to China. However once that fountain of technology is cut off, Israel wouldn't be in the same position. They simply do not have the budget to support massive military R&D projects. It's because of joint US/Israeli efforts that Israel has benefited so much (and backstabbed the USA).

Sure they would not have the budget to do it on their own, which is precisely why another country, perhaps Russia or China would gladly step in. That's exactly the point I was making.

China and Russia don't have 1/10th the budget the US does for military expenditures nor do they have the technological capacity the US does. That's why I mentioned US/Israeli joint ventures where US technology ended up in Chinese hands thanks to Israeli backstabbing. You're admitting Israel is a welfare state that needs a superpower and/or semi-superpower supporting it and that it would have no qualms working with Communists. Actually now that you mention it, China has a pretty bad human rights record so it would be a perfect fit for Israel.

 

[railer]

:thumbsup:

You're admitting Israel is a welfare state that needs a superpower and/or semi-superpower supporting it.

I've said that before. Israel is a welfare state.

 

[Termagant]

would have no qualms working with Communists.

Well I guess Israel joins the list of every other country in the world and every company including US defense contractors???

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
China and Russia don't have 1/10th the budget the US does for military expenditures nor do they have the technological capacity the US does. That's why I mentioned US/Israeli joint ventures where US technology ended up in Chinese hands thanks to Israeli backstabbing. You're admitting Israel is a welfare state that needs a superpower and/or semi-superpower supporting it and that it would have no qualms working with Communists. Actually now that you mention it, China has a pretty bad human rights record so it would be a perfect fit for Israel.

I'm not admitting anything of the sort. I said Israel probably would not have the capability to research and produce the military technology it does right now without financial backing. In no way does that make them a welfare state. And you have a real childish view of foreign policy if you think that a country would not work with another country because they are communist or what have you. Every country in the world, the US included, would work with any other country in the world if it was in their best interests. The US claims to be anti-terror, yet they have no problem working with the Saudis because it's in the best interests of the US. There are many examples. And you can take your flamebaiting "backstabbing" comments and apply it here as well. Countries do not have friends or loyalties. They have common interests. I realize that you do not believe that Israel and the US share interests, yet every administration since Truman (who chose to recognize Israel against the advice of some of his political advisors) hasn't seen it your way.

EDIT: Spelling