I've come to a realization regarding this board re: the mideast

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In recent news on the study of bias it has been shown that pro Arab and pro Israeli folk shown news items on the conflict that are balanced each felt the news pointed out too many good things about the opposite party. In other words partisans do not see the same thing when they look at the same news and each fears that neutral people will be biased by this seemingly prejudiced news. But the facts are that the unbiased were not persuaded one way or the other by such news but saw good and bad in each side. In other words, the biased are truly the ones who are actually blind and the neutral the ones who can maintain some sense of objectivity. The implication is clear that if you have taken a side you cannot see. In fact the biased mind, in analyzing the good and bad of any particular situation arrives at a conclusion rapidly and spends all its time and effort not on an analysis of the validity of the judgment but on defending it tooth and nail against all comers.

If a neutral person is bombarded with a slanted view of things then they cannot objectively form a neutral opinion can they? So seeing facts from both sides is helpful in this case.

If you are biased the objective looks slanted. So right off the bat your hypothetical is iffy.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Siwy
Reading opinions of analysts, historians, people involved in the conflict and news networks makes me informed, not biased.

It makes you well informed of other people's biased agendas.

Just because you saw an aftermath of suicide bombing does not make you more knowledgeable. It?s much more likely that it made you more emotional and we all know how emotions can cloud one?s judgment.

What I've seen in my time there is much more than a suicide bombing or two.

How come you won?t address Olmert?s quote which indicates he is willing to terrorize civilians to ?teach them a lesson?.

Because I have no idea what he said or what context it was said in. Reading a quote in a newspaper article does absolutely nothing for me.

If you feel that it was a real tragedy, yet you support the continuation of that tragedy than you are right, you are not indifferent ~ you are a man without any moral backbone.

Again, the fact that civillians die in war is a real tragedy. I support the conflict, not the deaths of civillians. I believe in Israel's cause and I feel they are completely justified in going after those who attack them. If you really felt bad about civillina deaths in this case, let me refer you to the Article 28 of the 4th Geneva convention which states:
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
and
Should civilian casualties ensue from an attempt to shield combatants or a military objective, the ultimate responsibility lies with the belligerent placing innocent civilians at risk.
If you really felt bad, you'd blame those who bring a war into the backyards of the people they claim to care about.

Really? How many people died because of Sharon?s decision to exchange prisoners two years ago? How many died because of Olmert?s decision not to do the exchange a couple of weeks ago? Who does not understand the reality here?

The one's kidnapped now were because of that policy. Everyone who Hezbollah has killed since then is because of that flawed logic. Caving in to terrorist demands emboldens them to carry out more attacks. Why would they stop if they see that it works?

You must be mad if you think that exchange of prisoners, would somehow make Hezbollah into this powerful monster capable of Israel?s destruction.

I never said anywhere that they'd be capable of destroying Israel, although they will certainly try. As I said before, giving in to their demands after they attack you is a foolish and ridiculous thing to do. When you are attacked, you fight back. Appeasing terrorists will get you much more terror.

And you are irrational if you believe that a couple of kidnapped soldiers are worth hundreds of Lebanese deaths and especially irrational and totally ridiculous if you think that a couple of Israeli soldiers are worth tens of Israeli civilian deaths and tens of Israeli soldier deaths. It just makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. They were attacked. They are fighting back at their attackers. It's called war and it's not pretty, especially when Hezbollah operates out of civillian areas.

It?s very unlikely that his words were taken out of context and I can provide more quotes by Sharon and Olmert that confirm the demographic reasons for past and future withdrawals.

You can provide as many quotes as you wish for your theory, it will never change the fact on the ground. Hamas wanted a withdrawl from gaza and the west Bank. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza and was planning to withdraw from most of the West Bank. All it got them were rockets on Israeli towns. They are not dealing with people who want peace, they are dealing with people who want the destruction of Israel.

I hope you see now that the withdrawal was not a ?painful gesture for peace? but a ?painful demographic strategy?

I certainly don't agree with that at all. Not that it makes a difference if it's true or not.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
More lies and propaganda from an Israeli solider.

Careful, your bias is showing!

Here get a clue:

Israel is believed to have about 100 women and 300 under-18s among the more than 8,000 Palestinian prisoners in its jails. Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122056.stm

What's your point? Are women and minors not capable of extreme violence? I've witnessed personally violence from children and we all know there have been women sucide bombers. Not saying that they are bombers, but the fact that they are minors and women should not automatically exonorate them. But I certainly appreciate all your nice little links attempting to "give me a clue" to what goes on in a region I myself lived in.

3,111 held by Israeli army, 741 in administrative detention (without trial)
5,127 held in Israeli prisons, 53 in administrative detention
Source: B'Tselem, January 2006
Israel conveniently arrests hundreds or thousands of people and claims they're part of terrorist groups. Who is going to really question Israel's gestapo tactics? Nobody so the only avenue of securing these peoples return is to go to the extremes of kidnapping soldiers in return for prisoners.

Do you think the prisoners that the US took in WW2 were given trials? Terrorists targeted Jews in the area before there even was a state of Israel. It's been a long war, and it continues, but make no mistake about it - it is a war.

yeah I'm sure the current government will remove all these settlements from the West Bank: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/wbsettle.html

Okay, so basically you have idea what you're talking about, right? Are you familiar with the convergence plan?

Lastly:

On his way to the UN summit in New York, Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon said to reporters, "Building is continuing there [West Bank settlements]; we will build as much as we need." Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz proclaimed the day before, "We have to make every effort to direct resources to the development of the settlement blocs." While the media portrays dismantling Gaza settlements as an Israeli concession to the Palestinians, scant attention has been focused on the real problem -- that the whole settlement enterprise pursued by successive Israeli governments since 1967 is illegal. Israeli withdrawal of settlements from Gaza is partial compliance with international law, not a concession.

Source: http://www.merip.org/newspaper_opeds/oped092405.html

After looking at the front page of that site, seeing countless anti-Israel stories and not a single one about the victims in Israel, I honestly do not care what they say or think and put very little credence in quotes they may have. They obviously, as you do, have an agenda.

Lastly, your quote:

These people are the scum of the earth, unrepentant murderers who should never again breath free air

Seems you can't help but show your true colors towards your neighbors.

[/quote]
Again I will assume that you do not know who Samir Kuntar really is, you probably did not even hear his name until a few weeks ago. This is the number one man they want in exchange for the IDF soldiers they took.

 

[kage69]

My point was the poster I quoted didn't know enough about the Liberty accident to even realize that the ship wasn't sunk... which is exactly what ThePresence was pointing out... the poster didnt even know the basic facts about the accident so how could he ever hope to form an educated opinion?

Nice try, but actually the Liberty incident was brought up by Witling and wasn't even addressed by Presence before your post, so no, he wasn't pointing that out. While the Liberty attack doesn't pertain to Presence's subject directly, to be fair Witling was giving an example of how his statement of ""Not another country would stand for that [their soldiers being killed]" was incorrect, and supported his stance. Pretty straight forward really.

You yourself have shown a marked inability to even consider information critical of Israel concerning that attack, so don't give any bull about others not knowing basic facts and being unable to form an educated opinion! Bold "accident" all you want, it doesn't support jack sh!t and only makes you look ignorant.

The Liberty incident was in a war zone and it wasn't in it's own territory.

It wasn't in it's own territory, sure, but the attack occured in international waters.

My point was that the US would not stand down if Mexico was shooting rockets into US territory,

Well this incident started with Israeli soldiers being kidnapped (and likely killed). Like it or not, that and your earlier statement (the one Witling cited) don't jive with the US doing nothing over US sailors and intelligence personnel (i.e., members of the military) being killed on the Liberty.
Sounds a little different than Mexico shooting rockets into US territory.

But you're right, too much talk of the Liberty is diverting away from the thread topic; I've said my peace and am moving on.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: kage69

My point was the poster I quoted didn't know enough about the Liberty accident to even realize that the ship wasn't sunk... which is exactly what ThePresence was pointing out... the poster didnt even know the basic facts about the accident so how could he ever hope to form an educated opinion?

Nice try, but actually the Liberty incident was brought up by Witling and wasn't even addressed by Presence before your post, so no, he wasn't pointing that out. While the Liberty attack doesn't pertain to Presence's subject directly, to be fair Witling was giving an example of how his statement of ""Not another country would stand for that [their soldiers being killed]" was incorrect, and supported his stance. Pretty straight forward really.

You yourself have shown a marked inability to even consider information critical of Israel concerning that attack, so don't give any bull about others not knowing basic facts and being unable to form an educated opinion! Bold "accident" all you want, it doesn't support jack sh!t and only makes you look ignorant.

The Liberty incident was in a war zone and it wasn't in it's own territory.

It wasn't in it's own territory, sure, but the attack occured in international waters.

My point was that the US would not stand down if Mexico was shooting rockets into US territory,

Well this incident started with Israeli soldiers being kidnapped (and likely killed). Like it or not, that and your earlier statement (the one Witling cited) don't jive with the US doing nothing over US sailors and intelligence personnel (i.e., members of the military) being killed on the Liberty.
Sounds a little different than Mexico shooting rockets into US territory.

But you're right, too much talk of the Liberty is diverting away from the thread topic; I've said my peace and am moving on.

Man you are frustrating... allow me to simplify it so you will understand

The OP made the point at the very begining of the thread... that

"It's that most of you people (not all, but most) have no clue what you're talking about. It's very easy to sit in comfort in and cast judgement about a conflict on the other side of the world that you think you understand."

And then later on in the thread... as IF to point out how right the OP was... Witling comes along and cites an incident about some ship that he didn't know the name of that was sunk maybe in 1967. He also mentions some "place" that Israel withdrew from that he couldn't spell. He then proceeded to follow up this clear ignorance of the facts with judgements about Israel.

ThePresence. "Not another country would stand for that [their soldiers being killed]." The U.S. did when the Israelis sank a U.S. ship. 1967, I think. Just one of those "accidents." In your earlier post you mention withdrawal from various areas and "did it bring peace?" No neglect mentioning the withdrawal from the Saniai (spelling?) which caused Israeli rioting but apparently purchased peace with Israel. The second thing that bothers me about this withdrawal from territory argument is that it only takes a very small group to launch rockets. Collective punishment follows. You also say, "Israel didn't have any choice." Of course they had a choice. See sentence # 1.

This is exactly the point the OP was making... so often people on this forum come along, who are clearly ignorant, and detached from the reality of the conflict, and yet still are so willing to make judgement calls about whats really happening, and who's to blame.

As far as I'm concerned the fact that the post was about the liberty is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

-Max

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
It's that most of you people (not all, but most) have no clue what you're talking about. It's very easy to sit in comfort in and cast judgement about a conflict on the other side of the world that you think you understand. I have lived there and I served in the military there and I can say that most of you do not begin to understand the mindset of the region. I know all the Israel haters will come in here and say I'm only saying this because of the tragedy that happened, and this is how I justify Israeli so-called 'war crimes', I'm just another Israeli apologist, blah, blah, blah. Okay, feel free to say and think what you want. But I can tell you from my heart that it's not true at all. I think the bombing that happened is a real human tragedy. I also think that people are complete idiots if they think Israel did this intentionally. They have absolutely no reason to kill civillians. It doesn't help their cause whatsoever. Since when do those bent on killing civillians first warn them to leave the area multiple times? It's insanity. I wonder sometimes how many of you really believe it's a tragedy when Israeli civillians are killed, and how much of it is lip service. Civillians die in war, it's the nature of the beast. I blame those responsible for attacking Israel for bringing war to their people.

A few points:

The current Israeli government is (might be WAS by now) interested in withdrawing from most of the West Bank. Last year Israel pulled out of Gaza in a painful gesture for peace. Not a day of peace followed. All it did was pull more Israeli civillians into range of Palestinian rockets. Tell me, are those the actions of a people interested in peace? Or does it make more sense to assume that they really just want the destruction of Israel?

Israel pulled out of Lebanon six years ago. Did peace follow? No, it didn't. Hezbollah has constantly attacked Israel for no reason at all. The restraint Israel has shown over these last six years has finally boiled over in this completely unprovoked attack against soldiers patrolling within Israel territory. How any of you believe that the Israeli response is unjustified is beyond me. I wonder what you would want the US to do if Mexico shot rockets at US towns every now and then for six years and then ambushed a patrol of US soldiers?

One more thing. You cannot win a conflict by fighting nicely. It makes it much harder and puts many more troops in danger. Yet, Israel is trying. It warned civillians multiple times to stay away from areas Hezbollah is operating from. It warned civillians multiple times to move north. There is no more they can do. They are fighting a group who operates from areas that civillians hide in. They have to hit back. Do you think Hezbollah is saddened by the civillian deaths in Lebanon? BS! This tragedy is a huge victory for Hezbollah. They are beside themselves with glee. Their plan worked, Israel killed civillians while trying to hit them! Now world opinion will turn against Israel. Their goal has been accomplished. Congratulations for playing right into their hands.

Heh, you say you understand the mindset of the region? When does Israeli represent the whole region, and how can you claim you understand the mindset of those Arab when you don't live in the same refugee camps they live in, and lead the hopeless life they lead.

You see, people like you are the problem with the conflict. You people from both sides of the conflicts have one track mind that other side wants to destroy you, and nobody actually have any kinda trust for each other. Well, yeah I know there has been killing for years, but you gotta be super biased or totally naive to think only one side is to blame. And if you really think Israel is superior to the terrorist, why don't you act like a civilized country and use diplomacy instead of brute force, and start to work on peace instead of work on more violence?

And don't give me Israel is acting with constrain and all those bull, and don't give me that how US would react if Mexico shoot rockets at the US. Lebanon did not shoot rocket at Israel, Hezbollah did. Israel is killing hundreds of Lebanese, injuring thousands and displacing tens of thousands of Lebanese civilian for something their government did not do.

And please spare us on the speech on how peaceful Israelis have been. You guys have been shelling Palestinian even when the cease fire was in effect, and you have arrested and jailed thousands without due process. In every conflicts you are involved in, even if you are not the one started the conflicts, you ended up being the one that destroyed cities after cities and create refugee camps after refugee camps.

Sure you cannot win a fight by fighting nicely, but you don't go kill people who has nothing to do with the conflict just because it will save some of your people. Simple message for you, if Hezbollah/Hamas shoot rocket at you, go take it up on Hezbollah/Hamas, but not others just because you are lazy or unable to take on those terrorists headon.

You know, the only people that is playing into Hezbollah/Hamas hand is you people, the Israelis. You are becoming the villain in this conflict, in the eyes of people from around the world. Simply put, you killed/injured/displaced more, you killed/injured/displaced the wrong people. Yes Hezbollah hide among the civilian, but you are the ones pulling the trigger, so in the end, the blood is on your hand. You choose to use 100x more violence to respond to violence, and in the end, you only create more violence in the region. So go ahead and keep escalating the situation with violence and kill more people. But just don't expect the rest of us shut our mouth and see you kill more innocent women and children.

 

[azazyel]

I just want to throw out a few points here. Personally I don't care why Israel is doing what they are doing but I'm getting a little concerned about how they are doing it.

So far they have:

-attacked gas stations
-attacked power plants
-attacked oil refineries
-attacked comerical airports
-created 800,000 refugees
-destabilized a ME democracy


I know some of you will say these are miltary targets but to what end? These people have no power, no sanitation and that's not going to make anyone very happy. You people see what happens in the US when there's a mass power outage, imagine what it's like there. Israel was in Lebanon for 18 years and wasn't able to get Hezbollah but now they think they have a chance?

"The guerrilla wins if he does not lose. There is truth in the cliche. And as of today, Nasrallah has refused to return the two Israeli soldiers Hezbollah captured. Hezbollah has fired 1,500 rockets into Israel, which no Arab army has ever done. It continues to fire 100 a day, after two weeks of massive air and artillery strikes on its positions in south Lebanon. Hezbollah is visibly accomplishing what no Arab nation has ever accomplished. Small wonder its prestige is rocketing in the Arab and Islamic world. " P Buchanan

They are going to need to invaid if they think they are going win this. But if they do, I don't want our soldiers on the ground with them.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Heh, you say you understand the mindset of the region? When does Israeli represent the whole region, and how can you claim you understand the mindset of those Arab when you don't live in the same refugee camps they live in, and lead the hopeless life they lead.

That is true, I don't have that prespective. And I do feel bad for them. But the terrorists bring it on their people. How can you not see that? A terrorist intentionally disguises himself as a civillian. How can Israel not guard itself against that? Yes, people who do not deserve to get punished for it do get punished and it's not fair, but the only other alternative is to let themselves be blown up. What are they to do?

You see, people like you are the problem with the conflict. You people from both sides of the conflicts have one track mind that other side wants to destroy you, and nobody actually have any kinda trust for each other. Well, yeah I know there has been killing for years, but you gotta be super biased or totally naive to think only one side is to blame. And if you really think Israel is superior to the terrorist, why don't you act like a civilized country and use diplomacy instead of brute force, and start to work on peace instead of work on more violence?

What would diplomacy do? Seriously. How do you reason with a force that is dedicated to your destruction? Where would it get you? And if you give in to their demands, that would just create another problem down the road. After all, if they see it works why would they not continue to do it? See where Sharon's prisoner exchange got them? More Israelis kidnapped to be swapped. They see it worked once, why would it not work again?

And don't give me Israel is acting with constrain and all those bull, and don't give me that how US would react if Mexico shoot rockets at the US. Lebanon did not shoot rocket at Israel, Hezbollah did. Israel is killing hundreds of Lebanese, injuring thousands and displacing tens of thousands of Lebanese civilian for something their government did not do.

Hezbollah has 23 seats in the Lebanese government. They are part of the government. Call it bull all you want, it happens to be the fact that Hezbollah has shot rockets at Israeli towns for years and Israel did squat. That's called restraint, not bull. There is no other way to fight a force which hides among civillians.

And please spare us on the speech on how peaceful Israelis have been. You guys have been shelling Palestinian even when the cease fire was in effect, and you have arrested and jailed thousands without due process. In every conflicts you are involved in, even if you are not the one started the conflicts, you ended up being the one that destroyed cities after cities and create refugee camps after refugee camps.
Sure you cannot win a fight by fighting nicely, but you don't go kill people who has nothing to do with the conflict just because it will save some of your people. Simple message for you, if Hezbollah/Hamas shoot rocket at you, go take it up on Hezbollah/Hamas, but not others just because you are lazy or unable to take on those terrorists headon.

I'd like to hear your plan how to take on Hezbollah without civillians getting hurt. I'm all ears.

You know, the only people that is playing into Hezbollah/Hamas hand is you people, the Israelis. You are becoming the villain in this conflict, in the eyes of people from around the world.

Most countries around the world don't give the slightest damn about dead Israelis. Israel can do no right, and they will never be justified unless they capitulate to terror. I'm proud that this time Israel was able to show some backbone and not cave in to the pressure.

Simply put, you killed/injured/displaced more, you killed/injured/displaced the wrong people. Yes Hezbollah hide among the civilian, but you are the ones pulling the trigger, so in the end, the blood is on your hand.

In your eyes that may be true, but not according to the Geneva convention or any other straight-thinking person. If they hide among civillians THEY are to blame for bringing war to their people.

You choose to use 100x more violence to respond to violence, and in the end, you only create more violence in the region. So go ahead and keep escalating the situation with violence and kill more people.

As if there's another option other giving in to the demands of the terrorists who attacked you.

But just don't expect the rest of us shut our mouth and see you kill more innocent women and children.

I don't. I think it's just as horrible as you do, although I doubt you really believe that.

 

[ThePresence]

I really don't have the time or patience to go point for point with everyone. I think my position is clear and I thank those who sent me their PMs that they really agree with me. I just wish more of you would post in these threads.

 

[Jaskalas]

ThePresence, I applaud your efforts. I do not have the patients to repeat myself in explicit detail for every post, only to find them unmovable in their defense of Hezbollah. I mean, when it comes down to war there are two sides and each shows which they are on. Beyond that, it comes down to the fighting in the battlefield, the ideologies will never change.

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: rchiu
Heh, you say you understand the mindset of the region? When does Israeli represent the whole region, and how can you claim you understand the mindset of those Arab when you don't live in the same refugee camps they live in, and lead the hopeless life they lead.

That is true, I don't have that prespective. And I do feel bad for them. But the terrorists bring it on their people. How can you not see that? A terrorist intentionally disguises himself as a civillian. How can Israel not guard itself against that? Yes, people who do not deserve to get punished for it do get punished and it's not fair, but the only other alternative is to let themselves be blown up. What are they to do?

Exactly, but if they do not have an answer, perhaps it is because they support Israel being blown up.

While I do not blindly condone killing of innocents, one must allow this war to be completed. Or else you will find yourself in an endless state of war, always to see innocents dying. Until Hezbollah is killed or surrenders, we are guaranteed to see more innocents die.

Then why do we keep seeing people defend Hezbollah?

My foregone conclusion is they support Hezbollah through inaction. We are to lay down our arms while being murdered, and this I will never accept.

 

[IrateLeaf]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How come you won?t address Olmert?s quote which indicates he is willing to terrorize civilians to ?teach them a lesson?.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don`t see anywhere that Olmert used any words even coming close to those words this person is using.
hmmm

 

[imported_peachee]

Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Are we going to cut off aid to every other country in the world we send money to? Or just Israel?

 

[railer]

A lot of you make a distinction betweeen what you believe someone does "on purpose".

If Israel indiscriminantly bombs a building, and kills a bunch of kids, it's OK, because it wasn't "on purpose". If Hamas fires some unguided rockets into Israel and kills two people, they're "evil" because they did it "on purpose".

I submit to you that Israel doesn't care what they do, who they kill, etc. Do they purposely target civilians? I would say they probably do not, but they act with such reckless abandon that it makes no differance. If I drive my car at 100 mph down a crowded sidewalk, am I any less guilty because I'm not trying to "purposely" kill any specific person, even after I run over 15 people?

Israel has the abitliy, through all of the weapons systems given to them by the US, to target anything they so choose. Hamas/Hezbollah has no such ability, and, given the choice, would certainly target Israeli military targets vs civilain targets. Let's give Hezbollah a few hundred F-16's and see who they go after. This whole conflict start when Hamas and Hezbollah targeted Israeli military targets, and Israel responded by decimating the Lebanese civilian population. Who is the terrorist again?

 

[dahunan]

Why does HEz and Hamas target Israel at all? Israel wouldn't target them if they didn't target Israelis..

They are just like the PRESIDENT OF IRAN... they don't think Israel should exist and they try to use religion to incite their populations to hate Israel too.. God will recycle them when they die and truen them into the person they hated

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Are we going to cut off aid to every other country in the world we send money to? Or just Israel?

Israel can't sustain itself without our money ?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Are we going to cut off aid to every other country in the world we send money to? Or just Israel?

Israel can't sustain itself without our money ?

If the US was not there for Israel, Russia and China would be. I don't think the US wants that. Every country will do what it's best interests dictate. If the US felt it wasn't in it's best interest to support Israel, they wouldn't.

 

[Witling]

Jaskalas, first, you mispelled "Jackass." Second, I made a post much earlier. It didn't say anything about "Israel should lay down and die." You didn't seem to have any problem reading it that way. What it said was, because two soldiers are killed or kidnapped, you don't have to kill a couple of hundred civilians and bomb the infrastructure. Man, the Israelis apparently got a light house and a sewage processing plant. I wonder how Hezbollah was going to use those facilities to smuggle arms?

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Are we going to cut off aid to every other country in the world we send money to? Or just Israel?

Israel can't sustain itself without our money ?

If the US was not there for Israel, Russia and China would be. I don't think the US wants that. Every country will do what it's best interests dictate. If the US felt it wasn't in it's best interest to support Israel, they wouldn't.

LOL Russia and China would have no interest in giving Israel the kind of preferential treatment it gets from the US. The US has a huge pro-Israeli lobby, I doubt you'd find the same sort of influence in the aforementioned countries--well maybe somewhat in Russia but definitely not China.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Nice. Let me copy another post of mine from another place, directly relating to that:

I wonder where US interests lay. Is it in the Syrian regime? Maybe in Lebanon, Iran or Iraq.

US has, since the lesson learned at WWII, taken a side in most conflicts around the world.
Do you seriously believe that the monetary aid US gives to Israel (2bil$/year, again spent entirely in the US on US made products) is any more expensive than the military umbrella given to Japan or South Korea?
Do you think it's any more expensive than the American presence on NATO soil?

Israel has not demanded any American military intervention in its favor, ever.

And if talking about interests, I thought the interest of the US is democracy and a free western world.
With Israel being the only Democratic, Western country in the Middle East, it's easy to see why Israel is the closest ally of the US.

Unless, of course, your perceived American interests are oil, and not stupid intangibles like freedom and the right of the Jewish people to have a national home, and then you're right, American isn't acting rationally. Much better siding with Iran, you'll get your oil alright.

The behavior of Israel is not any more reckless than Russia's or America's own behavior in similar situation. It's not Israel that invaded Iraq, mind.

To the point, anyone slightly familiar with international politics will tell you that this support - far from unconditional - comes at a price of Israel following the American foreign policy.
Every Israeli move is considered in terms of the effect on the relationship with the US. Can you say the same about Israeli attitude towards France, for example? Of course you can't, because Israel doesn't give a rats ass about what their goverment thinks.

The Americans are a restraining factor, clear and simple.
The best example would be the way Israel reacted to the missiles launched at it by Saddam Hussein in '91. It didn't retalitate as a result of commitment to the US and it's alliance.
How does that fit your theory?

Ok, lets see. The US isn't directly involved, nor has it ever been, in any Israeli military conflict.
The aid US gives to Israel is some money - again, quite minor compared to the support in other countries, not to mention the war in Iraq for example - international policital support, and the ability to buy weapons with less restrictions than other countries.

I hardly see how the American taxpayer suffers from any of this.

The only way you could claim American taxpayer is "picking up the tab" is by assuming that without Israel, the Islam would not be hostile to the west or its own people.
I mean, as much as I like to think that without Israel the Arab world would become Democratic and prosperous, and group like Al Qaeda would have never been born, it's just bullshit.
Their sad state of affairs, and it's projection on the world, does not have anything to do with Israel.

So far, Israel is only getting stronger. In the worst years of Israel - back in the 50' up to mid 60', it was NOT supported by the US (no money, no arms), and until the late 70' it only received partial support. And yet, it has taken care of things just fine (Six Days war, for example).
Israel, considered to have the third or fourth strongest Army in the world, can more than handle its adversaries in the Middle East.

So there. Easy saying that as Americans, you pay for Israel and its actions. But in fact, you buy your rights at the Israeli helm for a dime, and some political support.

In other words, you bought yourselves a US outpost in the Middle East for cheap, with no need of American soldiers to defend it. That's not a bad deal.

Now, do you even KNOW what American interests are?

Other than that, the military relationship with the US goes both ways. Israel sells military components to the US (some F35 systems as well as Anti Missile defense suite for APCs and Tanks in Iraq), holds joint development on several projects (most notably, Arrow missile and Nautilus laser system) and provides US with valuable intelligence.

Again, if you compare the money given to Israel with the money spent elsewhere, you'll get surprising results. Not to mention the war in Iraq...

 

[Starbuck1975]

As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

The best defense is a strong offense, and while recent American foreign policy engagements in the Middle East have been blunders, we cannot afford to lose all spheres of influence in the region.

France, Russia, China...all are players in the region, and all have varying relationships, some dating back to the Cold War and even European imperialism.

Also, attacks on U.S. soil is not an accurate benchmark for measuring the level of threat that certain factions in the Middle East pose...I don't think Iraq ever posed a real threat to America...Al Quaida, Hezbollah, Hammas...all are proxy armies doing the dirty work for Iran, Syria and even Saudi Arabia...those nations are the center of gravity.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Siwy
How come you won?t address Olmert?s quote which indicates he is willing to terrorize civilians to ?teach them a lesson?.

Could you please be so kind and point me to that speech?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Are we going to cut off aid to every other country in the world we send money to? Or just Israel?

Israel can't sustain itself without our money ?

If the US was not there for Israel, Russia and China would be. I don't think the US wants that. Every country will do what it's best interests dictate. If the US felt it wasn't in it's best interest to support Israel, they wouldn't.

LOL Russia and China would have no interest in giving Israel the kind of preferential treatment it gets from the US. The US has a huge pro-Israeli lobby, I doubt you'd find the same sort of influence in the aforementioned countries--well maybe somewhat in Russia but definitely not China.

Actually, they'd probably give Israel much BETTER treatment. Their need for advanced military hardware and technology is much more than that of the US. Israel is a world leader in the development of many different types of advanced military technologies. Don't be silly and think it's all because of AIPAC and just about every US administration since Truman was completely fooled by them, yet you see right through it all.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: peachee
Lots of Israeli loyalists are thinking about their interests first and only.

They say things like:
1. If Israel stops escalating the conflict, their nation will be destroyed in one instant. They say things like "do you want Israel to be destroyed?"
Looking at the current casualties, I don't think that is realistic. In fact, that is such an enormous exaggeration.

2. Hezbollah wants to kill us all. Palestine wants to kill us all. Their children's death are sad but they're all terrorists. So, we must wipe them out in case they grow up and wipe us out. This is one of the sickest cyclical violence mentalities if there ever was one. You do realize that by extrapolation, this means Israel wants to wipe out both country's citizens, if not the whole nonjewish population.


As an American, I'm not concerned about Israeli interests (no they are not the same as U.S. interests regardless of how many times Israeli loyalists proclaim). First and foremost, I believe that defense stays in our borders. Fighting terrorism means keeping alert with good intelligence and staying focused against actual aggressors rather than presumed aggressors or their families, neighbors, countrymen. So far the U.S. has not had an attack from the mideast for years. How many attacks have the U.S. land have from the mideast anyway? Less than 5? 4? 3? 2?

As such, we need not support Israel. They are of no use to the U.S. I'm sure Israeli loyalists disagree but what do you expect, they support Israel first and foremost.

Americans need to focus on Americans first and foremost.

No more free weapons to Israel. No more free funding to Israel that amounts to billions of lost revenue to our own nation that is in debt.

Israeli loyalists can proclaim their right to fight and kill more civilians to protect themselves in other people's countries all they want. Just don't do it with free U.S. weapons and money. Ok? Cool.

Are we going to cut off aid to every other country in the world we send money to? Or just Israel?

Israel can't sustain itself without our money ?

If the US was not there for Israel, Russia and China would be. I don't think the US wants that. Every country will do what it's best interests dictate. If the US felt it wasn't in it's best interest to support Israel, they wouldn't.

LOL Russia and China would have no interest in giving Israel the kind of preferential treatment it gets from the US. The US has a huge pro-Israeli lobby, I doubt you'd find the same sort of influence in the aforementioned countries--well maybe somewhat in Russia but definitely not China.

Actually, they'd probably give Israel much BETTER treatment. Their need for advanced military hardware and technology is much more than that of the US. Israel is a world leader in the development of many different types of advanced military technologies. Don't be silly and think it's all because of AIPAC and just about every US administration since Truman was completely fooled by them, yet you see right through it all.

Yes I know all about Israel turning around and selling advanced US military tech to China. However once that fountain of technology is cut off, Israel wouldn't be in the same position. They simply do not have the budget to support massive military R&D projects. It's because of joint US/Israeli efforts that Israel has benefited so much (and backstabbed the USA).

 

[blackllotus]

To all the "peace advocates" out there I want to ask, what does a cease-fire do? A cease-fire will only result in more deaths in the long run because it doesn't fix anything. Just look at how long cease-fires last with Palestine.

Also it's utterly obscene that some of the so-called "peace advocates" associate Israel with Nazis and then victimize Hezbollah. People here are shiting themselves because Israel has killed more people than Hezbollah, but what the hell did they expect? Is Israel supposed to try and "keep even" with Hezbollah in terms of casualties? When we attacked Afghanistan we ended up killing some civilians. A country declares war on the government, but inevitably ends up killing some of the civilians. Its inevitable and, yes, it is terribly unfair, however don't bitch and moan about Israel if you can't even come up with a realistic alternative for eliminating Hezbollah.