I've come to a realization regarding this board re: the mideast

[kage69]

Witling is incorrect in saying the Israelis sank the Liberty (although they sure as hell tried, anyone who has seen one of the few pics of the ship after the attack should have little doubt) but he is bang on correct in noting that many American sailors and intelligence personnel were killed and the Johnson admin (despite being convinced almost to a man that it was intentional) did absolutely jack sh!t about it. Other than downplay it and immediately launch a cover-up/fake investigation anyway. Funny how it's still the only large loss of life suffered by the Navy that didn't get a Congressional investigation. That does seem to render Presence's specific statement null and void.

What I agree with on Presence's part is there are far too many people passing judgement on places they've never been to, and on people they've never personally encountered. This applies to a large swath of issues on P&N, not just this one.

Congratulations... you have just proved ThePresence's point... and the sad reality is you probably don't even realize how...

Stow it. He did not, but I noticed in your haste to jump behind Presence you paid no attention to the Liberty error I noted above; surprising considering it's an incident you have been rather vocal about in the past. Not something you'd expect from someone who acts like they have the full story on the Liberty and has argued against common sense and matters of historical fact to maintain the IDF's excuse.

Presence, a guy who toted a gun for Israel and prolly got shot at it in the process, realizes that Israels actions past and present may not have always been honorable. You, on the other hand are a standard key-board commando from all I can tell, and continually go on to defend Israel no matter the issue, no matter the details. Do him a favor and shut up.



I think that the Israelis and their opposition both have done a great job of tarnishing their names over the decades, both committing crimes and both twisting stories to their own ends.
But I also think that Israel stands out in it's clear desire for peace, making concession after concession and losing lives throughout it all to boot. The restraint they continue to show amazes me at times. Hezbollah started this affair, tough sh!t if they underestimated the Israeli response. It's a terrorist organization that has been tolerated for quite some time, and getting rid of it once and for all would be an improvement in the region. It's a shame innocents continue to die from the efforts of both sides though, although I consider that the price to pay when combat ops are conducted in populated areas. No such thing as 'clean' urban combat. I won't compare any of these cases perpetrated by Israel to the Liberty incident either, as so far none of them to my knowledge even comes close to being similar.



ok, enough sad topics for one day, I have a large lawn to mow...

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: kage69
Witling is incorrect in saying the Israelis sank the Liberty (although they sure as hell tried, anyone who has seen one of the few pics of the ship after the attack should have little doubt) but he is bang on correct in noting that many American sailors and intelligence personnel were killed and the Johnson admin (despite being convinced almost to a man that it was intentional) did absolutely jack sh!t about it. Other than downplay it and immediately launch a cover-up/fake investigation anyway. Funny how it's still the only large loss of life suffered by the Navy that didn't get a Congressional investigation. That does seem to render Presence's specific statement null and void.

What I agree with on Presence's part is there are far too many people passing judgement on places they've never been to, and on people they've never personally encountered. This applies to a large swath of issues on P&N, not just this one.

Congratulations... you have just proved ThePresence's point... and the sad reality is you probably don't even realize how...

Stow it. He did not, but I noticed in your haste to jump behind Presence you paid no attention to the Liberty error I noted above; surprising considering it's an incident you have been rather vocal about in the past. Not something you'd expect from someone who acts like they have the full story on the Liberty and has argued against common sense and matters of historical fact to maintain the IDF's excuse.

Presence, a guy who toted a gun for Israel and prolly got shot at it in the process, realizes that Israels actions past and present may not have always been honorable. You, on the other hand are a standard key-board commando from all I can tell, and continually go on to defend Israel no matter the issue, no matter the details. Do him a favor and shut up.



I think that the Israelis and their opposition both have done a great job of tarnishing their names over the decades, both committing crimes and both twisting stories to their own ends.
But I also think that Israel stands out in it's clear desire for peace, making concession after concession and losing lives throughout it all to boot. The restraint they continue to show amazes me at times. Hezbollah started this affair, tough sh!t if they underestimated the Israeli response. It's a terrorist organization that has been tolerated for quite some time, and getting rid of it once and for all would be an improvement in the region. It's a shame innocents continue to die from the efforts of both sides though, although I consider that the price to pay when combat ops are conducted in populated areas. No such thing as 'clean' urban combat. I won't compare any of these cases perpetrated by Israel to the Liberty incident either, as so far none of them to my knowledge even comes close to being similar.



ok, enough sad topics for one day, I have a large lawn to mow...

You're a funny guy...

My point was the poster I quoted didn't know enough about the Liberty accident to even realize that the ship wasn't sunk... which is exactly what ThePresence was pointing out... the poster didnt even know the basic facts about the accident so how could he ever hope to form an educated opinion?

 

[ThePresence]

Actually this post and thread has nothing at all to do with the Liberty incident. I don't know what happened there, and neither does anyone here. It's completely irrelevant to this thread. My point was that the US would not stand down if Mexico was shooting rockets into US territory, and that no country would sit back and let their soldiers and citizens be killed. The Liberty incident was in a war zone and it wasn't in it's own territory. Regardless of what may or may not have happend which we can argue untill we're blue in the face (and we have), it has nothing to do with my statement.

 

[judasmachine]

I just believe it's a conflict with no good guys. Of course the innocents in the middle are going to suffer, and I understand that. But there is something deeply wrong when two people cannot live next to each other without one attacking the other. It isn't really the tanks, or the rockets, it is the idealology(s). When one side decides to be the bigger man the other jumps on them like a dog, and it will remain this way, as no one will take the dog's fangs long enough. Especially if they believe that the Heavenly Babysitter is the one telling them to strike.

Viva la Forever War! Invest in defense contractors!

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Actually this post and thread has nothing at all to do with the Liberty incident. I don't know what happened there, and neither does anyone here. It's completely irrelevant to this thread. My point was that the US would not stand down if Mexico was shooting rockets into US territory, and that no country would sit back and let their soldiers and citizens be killed. The Liberty incident was in a war zone and it wasn't in it's own territory. Regardless of what may or may not have happend which we can argue untill we're blue in the face (and we have), it has nothing to do with my statement.

But of what real meaning is your point. If we were shooting Mexicans from this side of the border and they fired some rockets at them we would probably fire back. It is not really relevant what people do. It matters why things happen as they do. I know the issues are tough between Israelis and Palestinians, but both sides will have to give more to reach accommodation, it seems to me.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
It's that most of you people (not all, but most) have no clue what you're talking about. It's very easy to sit in comfort in and cast judgement about a conflict on the other side of the world that you think you understand. I have lived there and I served in the military there and I can say that most of you do not begin to understand the mindset of the region.

At the same time you admit of being biased ~ which clouds your judgment and makes you cherry-pick the information that suits your point of view.

I also think that people are complete idiots if they think Israel did this intentionally. They have absolutely no reason to kill civillians. It doesn't help their cause whatsoever.

When the Israeli leader admits of willingness to terrorize innocent population, it doesn?t take an idiot to figure out that Israel intentionally targets civilians to terrorize them.

You see, to terrorize and collectively punish a population there is no need to kill all of them, a small fraction is enough to accomplish it and at the same time get away with it on international stage by saying it was a mistake ~ that is a tactic Israel has been using since it?s inception ~ starting with ?48 massacres.

I wonder sometimes how many of you really believe it's a tragedy when Israeli civillians are killed, and how much of it is lip service?

And I wonder, being so biased as you admittedly are, how sorry you are to see Lebanese, Palestinian civilians die. I wonder not only because you are biased but also because you unconditionally support the slaughter that is taking place.

You do realize that if Israel did not attack but did the prisoner exchange like they did before, all the innocents on both sides would still be alive, right?

The current Israeli government is (might be WAS by now) interested in withdrawing from most of the West Bank. Last year Israel pulled out of Gaza in a painful gesture for peace.

In gesture of peace? Haha

How about the fact that they withdrew because of a ?demographic time bomb??

How about the fact that at the same time Israel expanded its other settlements?

Does your bias prevent you from seeing those facts?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Siwy
At the same time you admit of being biased ~ which clouds your judgment and makes you cherry-pick the information that suits your point of view.

Sure, I'm biased. So are 99.9% of all people, you included. There is no information that I inentionally overlooked. There is information that I don't believe to be true, such as Hezbollah's claim that Israel is spreading AIDS throughout the Arab world, etc. Do you believe that?

When the Israeli leader admits of willingness to terrorize innocent population, it doesn?t take an idiot to figure out that Israel intentionally targets civilians to terrorize them.

But you see, you're making that assumption based on your ideas. I happen to have personal knowledge that that's not true. I went through the training which knocks into your head above all, to avoid civillian casulties. Perhpas you are not familiar with the realities of war.

You see, to terrorize and collectively punish a population there is no need to kill all of them, a small fraction is enough to accomplish it and at the same time get away with it on international stage by saying it was a mistake ~ that is a tactic Israel has been using since it?s inception ~ starting with ?48 massacres.

They have nothing to gain by targeting even a small group of civillians. Can't you see how that is a victory for Hezbollah? Exactly the opposite of what Israel wants. Are you that blind?

And I wonder, being so biased as you admittedly are, how sorry you are to see Lebanese, Palestinian civilians die. I wonder not only because you are biased but also because you unconditionally support the slaughter that is taking place.

My bias does not blind me so much as to cheer the deaths of innocent children. And again, I don't and never have supported and civillian deaths, I don't know where you got that from. I support the current Israeli campaign absolutely, I don't cheer when the tragic realities of war surface.

You do realize that if Israel did not attack but did the prisoner exchange like they did before, all the innocents on both sides would still be alive, right?

See, that is the view which I am adressing in my post. If Israel gave in the this Hezbollah agression and carried out a prisoner exchange, that would embolden Hezbollah to do it agian. Why not? there would be only victory, no consequence.

In gesture of peace? Haha

How about the fact that they withdrew because of a ?demographic time bomb??

How about the fact that at the same time Israel expanded its other settlements?

Does your bias prevent you from seeing those facts?

After comments like that you have no right calling anyone biased. Did you not see how the country was almost ripped apart by those painful events? Or did your bias prevent you from seeing that? To deny that it was a gesture for peace is completely buying in to all the Palestinian propoganda. Thankfully most well-adjusted people don't think the way you do. You and those who think like you help prepetuate the violence. In your eyes Israel cannot do any good unless it completely capitulates to terror.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Sure, I'm biased. So are 99.9% of all people, you included.

Considering I have nothing to do with this conflict and the closest connection I can think of is that I have Jews married into my family, I don?t think I am biased and I have nothing to gain by supporting either side. I?m simply looking at all facts, reading editorials (from both sides), and basing my opinions on that.

There is information that I don't believe to be true, such as Hezbollah's claim that Israel is spreading AIDS throughout the Arab world, etc. Do you believe that?

I believe Hezbollah?s propaganda as much as Israeli's propaganda. One needs to be more careful of Israeli propaganda though, because unlike Hezbollah?s see through b.s. Israel?s propaganda is much more sophisticated.

But you see, you're making that assumption based on your ideas. I happen to have personal knowledge that that's not true. I went through the training which knocks into your head above all, to avoid civillian casulties. Perhpas you are not familiar with the realities of war.

No assumptions here, my biased friend.

Olmert?s recent comment was very illuminating: ?I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza. I want them to know what its like?

Need I say more?

Just because you were IDF?s pawn you have little idea of what is going on up the ranks where the decisions are made. Of course, they will tell you to avoid civilian casualties, but do you think a plane pilot who drops a bomb knows what?s really inside the target?

They have nothing to gain by targeting even a small group of civillians. Can't you see how that is a victory for Hezbollah? Exactly the opposite of what Israel wants. Are you that blind?

It?s called collective punishment of people supporting hostile groups. They kill some and they destroy the lives of others.

And you are right, they are playing right into terrorist hands, and they have been playing into them for decades ~ when will Israel learn that their tactics will only strengthen terrorism?

My bias does not blind me so much as to cheer the deaths of innocent children. And again, I don't and never have supported and civillian deaths, I don't know where you got that from. I support the current Israeli campaign absolutely, I don't cheer when the tragic realities of war surface.

Tragic realities of war can be used as an excuse for anything, including your indifference to the deaths of non-Jews.

See, that is the view which I am adressing in my post. If Israel gave in the this Hezbollah agression and carried out a prisoner exchange, that would embolden Hezbollah to do it agian. Why not? there would be only victory, no consequence.

Prisoner exchange has been done before, by Sharon for example ~ the old man finally learned by the end of his career that the escalation of violence was not worth it and would only cerate more terrorists.

After comments like that you have no right calling anyone biased. Did you not see how the country was almost ripped apart by those painful events? Or did your bias prevent you from seeing that? To deny that it was a gesture for peace is completely buying in to all the Palestinian propoganda. Thankfully most well-adjusted people don't think the way you do. You and those who think like you help prepetuate the violence. In your eyes Israel cannot do any good unless it completely capitulates to terror.

Facts, my friend?you?re missing a lot of important facts.

The Guardian: When I spoke to him [Ehud Olmert] yesterday, he was pretty explicit about the strategic thinking behind the Gaza plan. It is all about demographics. Within a few years, he explained, there will be an equal number of Arabs and Jews living between the Jordanriver and the Mediterranean Sea - the combined area of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, all currently under Israeli control. In 15 years, thanks to their faster birthrate, the Palestinians will be a majority. "I want to live in a Jewish state," Olmert told me. "I don't want to live in a non-Jewish state."

And how about the Israel's expansion of other settlments, which you conviniently did not address in previous post?

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Do you think Hezbollah is saddened by the civillian deaths in Lebanon? BS! This tragedy is a huge victory for Hezbollah. They are beside themselves with glee. Their plan worked, Israel killed civillians while trying to hit them! Now world opinion will turn against Israel. Their goal has been accomplished. Congratulations for playing right into their hands.

I absolutely agree. I have no problem with strong measures to fight terrorists. I have a problem with flawed STRATEGY that actually HELPS your enemy.
And Israel screwed the pooch on this one. While they will get a temporary reprieve in their northern areas it will only last til the next batch of Hezbollah are trained. And with the Israeli attacks recruitment will be unbelievably high.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Do you think Hezbollah is saddened by the civillian deaths in Lebanon? BS! This tragedy is a huge victory for Hezbollah. They are beside themselves with glee. Their plan worked, Israel killed civillians while trying to hit them! Now world opinion will turn against Israel. Their goal has been accomplished. Congratulations for playing right into their hands.

I absolutely agree. I have no problem with strong measures to fight terrorists. I have a problem with flawed STRATEGY that actually HELPS your enemy.
And Israel screwed the pooch on this one. While they will get a temporary reprieve in their northern areas it will only last til the next batch of Hezbollah are trained. And with the Israeli attacks recruitment will be unbelievably high.

Not if the international community gets off their ass and sticks their arms where their mouth is... all Israel wants is any force with the authority and motivation to engage Hezbollah if they attempt to attack Israel. Then Israel and Lebanon can recover from this war, and move forward in peace.

-Max

 

[LunarRay]

[/quote]Facts, my friend?you?re missing a lot of important facts.

The Guardian: When I spoke to him [Ehud Olmert] yesterday, he was pretty explicit about the strategic thinking behind the Gaza plan. It is all about demographics. Within a few years, he explained, there will be an equal number of Arabs and Jews living between the Jordanriver and the Mediterranean Sea - the combined area of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, all currently under Israeli control. In 15 years, thanks to their faster birthrate, the Palestinians will be a majority. "I want to live in a Jewish state," Olmert told me. "I don't want to live in a non-Jewish state." [/quote]

Why not allocate some of Montana to be the State of Israel... then all the hostilities can end there and we can send our tax dollars to some other cause.
Seems reasonable to want to live in a Jewish state if one is Jewish.. sorta like the non Jewish folks want to live in a non Jewish state...

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: ThePresence
One more thing. You cannot win a conflict by fighting nicely. It makes it much harder and puts many more troops in danger. Yet, Israel is trying. It warned civillians multiple times to stay away from areas Hezbollah is operating from. It warned civillians multiple times to move north. There is no more they can do. They are fighting a group who operates from areas that civillians hide in. They have to hit back. Do you think Hezbollah is saddened by the civillian deaths in Lebanon? BS! This tragedy is a huge victory for Hezbollah. They are beside themselves with glee. Their plan worked, Israel killed civillians while trying to hit them! Now world opinion will turn against Israel. Their goal has been accomplished. Congratulations for playing right into their hands.

Exactly. It's not like Israel bombed the roads and borders leading out of southern Lebanon so civilians wouldn't be able to leave...errr...wait a second, they did.

That's incorrect, they didn't. They bombed the roads into southern Lebanon so that Hezbollah could not bring in more loads of weapons, and to impair their ability to manuever their troops. Yes, it hampers civillians too. Such is war. But are you seriously implying that Israel intentionally wanted the civillians to stay there after warning them to leave, bombing the roads so they could not get out, in order to kill them?

that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. like any road can't be used in both directions.

the only reason US supports Israel is because Israel owns Jerusalem and is on the "winning" side. If the tables were turned and Islam was more tolerable of Christianity, then Israel would be the one getting the pounding

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Siwy
Considering I have nothing to do with this conflict and the closest connection I can think of is that I have Jews married into my family, I don?t think I am biased and I have nothing to gain by supporting either side. I?m simply looking at all facts, reading editorials (from both sides), and basing my opinions on that.

And that was my point from the begining. You base your opinions on other people's agendas and biases.

No assumptions here, my biased friend.

Olmert?s recent comment was very illuminating: ?I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza. I want them to know what its like?

Need I say more?

Just because you were IDF?s pawn you have little idea of what is going on up the ranks where the decisions are made. Of course, they will tell you to avoid civilian casualties, but do you think a plane pilot who drops a bomb knows what?s really inside the target?

I may have no idea why decisions are made, but I guarantee that I have an understanding of the situation that you cannot possibly have unless you've seen what I've seen, stood where I've stood and experienced what I have. You do not have that prespective. By your own admission you rely on others for everything you know about the situation.

It?s called collective punishment of people supporting hostile groups. They kill some and they destroy the lives of others.
And you are right, they are playing right into terrorist hands, and they have been playing into them for decades ~ when will Israel learn that their tactics will only strengthen terrorism?

Look, you will believe what you will. I know that you are wrong. There's nothing more I can say. Your understanding of the situation comes through other people's biases and agendas.

Tragic realities of war can be used as an excuse for anything, including your indifference to the deaths of non-Jews.

Either you didn't read what I wrote or you intentionally chose to ignore the many times I said that I feel it was a real tragedy. I really do. Indifferent? Where do you get that from? Careful, your bias may be showing.

Prisoner exchange has been done before, by Sharon for example ~ the old man finally learned by the end of his career that the escalation of violence was not worth it and would only cerate more terrorists.

Again, you are helping me make the original point. You do not understand the reality. Shron's foolish prisoner trade is exactly why this situation is occurring IMO. Hezbollah saw that they could win that way, what should stop them from doing it again?

Facts, my friend?you?re missing a lot of important facts.

The Guardian: When I spoke to him [Ehud Olmert] yesterday, he was pretty explicit about the strategic thinking behind the Gaza plan. It is all about demographics. Within a few years, he explained, there will be an equal number of Arabs and Jews living between the Jordanriver and the Mediterranean Sea - the combined area of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, all currently under Israeli control. In 15 years, thanks to their faster birthrate, the Palestinians will be a majority. "I want to live in a Jewish state," Olmert told me. "I don't want to live in a non-Jewish state."
And how about the Israel's expansion of other settlments, which you conviniently did not address in previous post?

I don't know if his words were taken out of context or not, and I am certainly not a proponent of the withdrawl from Gaza, I think it is ridiculously foolish to attempt to make peace with those who do not want peace, as has been shown after they did pull out, I am not an Olmert or Sharon fan at all, so I really do not have to answer for every statement he may make. And let me add that I'm not a fan of the settlements either, I think they hurt Israel more than they help in the long run.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: ThePresence
One more thing. You cannot win a conflict by fighting nicely. It makes it much harder and puts many more troops in danger. Yet, Israel is trying. It warned civillians multiple times to stay away from areas Hezbollah is operating from. It warned civillians multiple times to move north. There is no more they can do. They are fighting a group who operates from areas that civillians hide in. They have to hit back. Do you think Hezbollah is saddened by the civillian deaths in Lebanon? BS! This tragedy is a huge victory for Hezbollah. They are beside themselves with glee. Their plan worked, Israel killed civillians while trying to hit them! Now world opinion will turn against Israel. Their goal has been accomplished. Congratulations for playing right into their hands.

Exactly. It's not like Israel bombed the roads and borders leading out of southern Lebanon so civilians wouldn't be able to leave...errr...wait a second, they did.

That's incorrect, they didn't. They bombed the roads into southern Lebanon so that Hezbollah could not bring in more loads of weapons, and to impair their ability to manuever their troops. Yes, it hampers civillians too. Such is war. But are you seriously implying that Israel intentionally wanted the civillians to stay there after warning them to leave, bombing the roads so they could not get out, in order to kill them?

that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. like any road can't be used in both directions.

the only reason US supports Israel is because Israel owns Jerusalem and is on the "winning" side. If the tables were turned and Islam was more tolerable of Christianity, then Israel would be the one getting the pounding

Of course. I was responding to the allegation that Israel bombed the roads SO THAT the civillians could not get out. As if they wanted to keep them there.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
diatribe snipped

First of all you admittedly served in the military there which makes your opinion biased and unreliable. Second, Hezbollah has kidnapped and returned Israelis in exchange for the thousands of men, women and children Israel has detained over the years. Since they don't have formal diplomatic relations with the country, that seems to be their only way to gain release of people that have been rotting in Israeli jails. Israel pulling out of small parts of Gaza is meaningless because they were still constructing settlements along the West Bank. Israel isn't interested in living in peace and equality with its neighbors, it wants to subdue them.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
:thumbsup:


The people who would oppose your post honestly think that all humans can just lay down their guns and sing kumbaya.

Or they are apologists for Hezbollah and Islam as a whole.

Yes they must be them thar terrarist lubbers cuz they dun luv dem Jews! :roll:

No, you retard.

Muslims in general will generally defend the actions of others of their faith, or attack those who criticise it. Case in point: I work with a Muslim who in just about every respect is a great guy, until one time we discussed the 9/11 incident. He started going off on some tangent about how Israel was responsible for it...

Surrrrree we believe you.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence
diatribe snipped

First of all you admittedly served in the military there which makes your opinion biased and unreliable. Second, Hezbollah has kidnapped and returned Israelis in exchange for the thousands of men, women and children Israel has detained over the years. Since they don't have formal diplomatic relations with the country, that seems to be their only way to gain release of people that have been rotting in Israeli jails. Israel pulling out of small parts of Gaza is meaningless because they were still constructing settlements along the West Bank. Israel isn't interested in living in peace and equality with its neighbors, it wants to subdue them.

Serving in the military does not make my view in any way unreliable, on the contrary, I may actually have experienced things that you don't see on CNN. Also, you obviously have no idea who these people are in Israeli prisons. These people were not arrested for speeding. The name that they most often rally around is Samir Kuntar. That's the name they chant when making rallies for the freedom of prisoners in Israeli jails. Here, educate yourself. These people are the scum of the earth, unrepentant murderers who should never again breath free air. And just so you know, Israel pulled out COMPLETELY from Gaza, not "small parts" of Gaza as you seem to believe. The current Israeli government was also willing to (foolishly) pull out of most of the West Bank, so kindly get at least some your facts in order before spouting off.

You are very clearly illustrationg the original point I made in this thread, that most people here have no idea wtf they're talking about.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence
diatribe snipped

First of all you admittedly served in the military there which makes your opinion biased and unreliable. Second, Hezbollah has kidnapped and returned Israelis in exchange for the thousands of men, women and children Israel has detained over the years. Since they don't have formal diplomatic relations with the country, that seems to be their only way to gain release of people that have been rotting in Israeli jails. Israel pulling out of small parts of Gaza is meaningless because they were still constructing settlements along the West Bank. Israel isn't interested in living in peace and equality with its neighbors, it wants to subdue them.

Serving in the military does not make my view in any way unreliable, on the contrary, I may actually have experienced things that you don't see on CNN. Also, you obviously have no idea who these people are in Israeli prisons. These people were not arrested for speeding. The name that they most often rally around is Samir Kuntar. That's the name they chant when making rallies for the freedom of prisoners in Israeli jails. Here, educate yourself. These people are the scum of the earth, unrepentant murderers who should never again breath free air. And just so you know, Israel pulled out COMPLETELY from Gaza, not "small parts" of Gaza as you seem to believe. The current Israeli government was also willing to (foolishly) pull out of most of the West Bank, so kindly get at least some your facts in order before spouting off.

You are very clearly illustrationg the original point I made in this thread, that most people here have no idea wtf they're talking about.

Either that or they feel no alliance towards Israel so they tend to be a little more critical of Israel.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
And that was point from the begining. You base your opinions on other people's agendas and biases.

Reading opinions of analysts, historians, people involved in the conflict and news networks makes me informed, not biased.

I may have no idea why decisions are made, but I guarantee that I have an understanding of the situation that you cannot possible have unless you've seen what I've seen, stood where I've stood and experienced what I have. You do not have that prespective. By your own admission you rely on others for everything you know about the situation.

Just because you saw an aftermath of suicide bombing does not make you more knowledgeable. It?s much more likely that it made you more emotional and we all know how emotions can cloud one?s judgment.

Look, you will believe what you will. I know that you are wrong. There's nothing more I can say. Your understanding of the situation comes through other people's biases and agendas.

How come you won?t address Olmert?s quote which indicates he is willing to terrorize civilians to ?teach them a lesson?.

Either you didn't read what I wrote or you intentionally chose to ignore the many times I said that I feel it was a real tragedy. I really do. Indifferent? Where do you get that from?

If you feel that it was a real tragedy, yet you support the continuation of that tragedy than you are right, you are not indifferent ~ you are a man without any moral backbone.

Again, you are helping me make the original point. You do not understand the reality. Shron's foolish prisoner trade is exactly why this situation is occurring IMO. Hezbollah saw that they could win that way, what should stop them from doing it again?

Really? How many people died because of Sharon?s decision to exchange prisoners two years ago? How many died because of Olmert?s decision not to do the exchange a couple of weeks ago? Who does not understand the reality here?

You must be mad if you think that exchange of prisoners, would somehow make Hezbollah into this powerful monster capable of Israel?s destruction. And you are irrational if you believe that a couple of kidnapped soldiers are worth hundreds of Lebanese deaths and especially irrational and totally ridiculous if you think that a couple of Israeli soldiers are worth tens of Israeli civilian deaths and tens of Israeli soldier deaths. It just makes no sense.

I don't know if his words were taken out of context or not, and I am certainly not a proponent of the withdrawl from Gaza, I think it is ridiculously foolish to attempt to make peace with those who do not want peace, as has been shown after they did pull out, I am not an Olmert or Sharon fan at all, so I really do not have to answer for every statement he may make.

It?s very unlikely that his words were taken out of context and I can provide more quotes by Sharon and Olmert that confirm the demographic reasons for past and future withdrawals.

And let me add that I'm not a fan of the settlements either, I think they hurt Israel more than they help in the long run.

Couldn?t agree more.

I hope you see now that the withdrawal was not a ?painful gesture for peace? but a ?painful demographic strategy?

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: ThePresence
diatribe snipped

First of all you admittedly served in the military there which makes your opinion biased and unreliable. Second, Hezbollah has kidnapped and returned Israelis in exchange for the thousands of men, women and children Israel has detained over the years. Since they don't have formal diplomatic relations with the country, that seems to be their only way to gain release of people that have been rotting in Israeli jails. Israel pulling out of small parts of Gaza is meaningless because they were still constructing settlements along the West Bank. Israel isn't interested in living in peace and equality with its neighbors, it wants to subdue them.

Serving in the military does not make my view in any way unreliable, on the contrary, I may actually have experienced things that you don't see on CNN. Also, you obviously have no idea who these people are in Israeli prisons. These people were not arrested for speeding. The name that they most often rally around is Samir Kuntar. That's the name they chant when making rallies for the freedom of prisoners in Israeli jails. Here, educate yourself. These people are the scum of the earth, unrepentant murderers who should never again breath free air. And just so you know, Israel pulled out COMPLETELY from Gaza, not "small parts" of Gaza as you seem to believe. The current Israeli government was also willing to (foolishly) pull out of most of the West Bank, so kindly get at least some your facts in order before spouting off.

You are very clearly illustrationg the original point I made in this thread, that most people here have no idea wtf they're talking about.

More lies and propaganda from an Israeli solider. Here get a clue:

Israel is believed to have about 100 women and 300 under-18s among the more than 8,000 Palestinian prisoners in its jails. Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122056.stm

and

3,111 held by Israeli army, 741 in administrative detention (without trial)
5,127 held in Israeli prisons, 53 in administrative detention
Source: B'Tselem, January 2006

Israel conveniently arrests hundreds or thousands of people and claims they're part of terrorist groups. Who is going to really question Israel's gestapo tactics? Nobody so the only avenue of securing these peoples return is to go to the extremes of kidnapping soldiers in return for prisoners.


And yeah I'm sure the current government will remove all these settlements from the West Bank: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/wbsettle.html


Lastly:

On his way to the UN summit in New York, Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon said to reporters, "Building is continuing there [West Bank settlements]; we will build as much as we need." Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz proclaimed the day before, "We have to make every effort to direct resources to the development of the settlement blocs." While the media portrays dismantling Gaza settlements as an Israeli concession to the Palestinians, scant attention has been focused on the real problem -- that the whole settlement enterprise pursued by successive Israeli governments since 1967 is illegal. Israeli withdrawal of settlements from Gaza is partial compliance with international law, not a concession.

Source: http://www.merip.org/newspaper_opeds/oped092405.html



Lastly, your quote:

These people are the scum of the earth, unrepentant murderers who should never again breath free air

Seems you can't help but show your true colors towards your neighbors.

 

[Moonbeam]

In recent news on the study of bias it has been shown that pro Arab and pro Israeli folk shown news items on the conflict that are balanced each felt the news pointed out too many good things about the opposite party. In other words partisans do not see the same thing when they look at the same news and each fears that neutral people will be biased by this seemingly prejudiced news. But the facts are that the unbiased were not persuaded one way or the other by such news but saw good and bad in each side. In other words, the biased are truly the ones who are actually blind and the neutral the ones who can maintain some sense of objectivity. The implication is clear that if you have taken a side you cannot see. In fact the biased mind, in analyzing the good and bad of any particular situation arrives at a conclusion rapidly and spends all its time and effort not on an analysis of the validity of the judgment but on defending it tooth and nail against all comers.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In recent news on the study of bias it has been shown that pro Arab and pro Israeli folk shown news items on the conflict that are balanced each felt the news pointed out too many good things about the opposite party. In other words partisans do not see the same thing when they look at the same news and each fears that neutral people will be biased by this seemingly prejudiced news. But the facts are that the unbiased were not persuaded one way or the other by such news but saw good and bad in each side. In other words, the biased are truly the ones who are actually blind and the neutral the ones who can maintain some sense of objectivity. The implication is clear that if you have taken a side you cannot see. In fact the biased mind, in analyzing the good and bad of any particular situation arrives at a conclusion rapidly and spends all its time and effort not on an analysis of the validity of the judgment but on defending it tooth and nail against all comers.

If a neutral person is bombarded with a slanted view of things then they cannot objectively form a neutral opinion can they? So seeing facts from both sides is helpful in this case.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In recent news on the study of bias it has been shown that pro Arab and pro Israeli folk shown news items on the conflict that are balanced each felt the news pointed out too many good things about the opposite party. In other words partisans do not see the same thing when they look at the same news and each fears that neutral people will be biased by this seemingly prejudiced news. But the facts are that the unbiased were not persuaded one way or the other by such news but saw good and bad in each side. In other words, the biased are truly the ones who are actually blind and the neutral the ones who can maintain some sense of objectivity. The implication is clear that if you have taken a side you cannot see. In fact the biased mind, in analyzing the good and bad of any particular situation arrives at a conclusion rapidly and spends all its time and effort not on an analysis of the validity of the judgment but on defending it tooth and nail against all comers.

If a neutral person is bombarded with a slanted view of things then they cannot objectively form a neutral opinion can they? So seeing facts from both sides is helpful in this case.

How about a third POV..Both sides in that conflict suck!

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In recent news on the study of bias it has been shown that pro Arab and pro Israeli folk shown news items on the conflict that are balanced each felt the news pointed out too many good things about the opposite party. In other words partisans do not see the same thing when they look at the same news and each fears that neutral people will be biased by this seemingly prejudiced news. But the facts are that the unbiased were not persuaded one way or the other by such news but saw good and bad in each side. In other words, the biased are truly the ones who are actually blind and the neutral the ones who can maintain some sense of objectivity. The implication is clear that if you have taken a side you cannot see. In fact the biased mind, in analyzing the good and bad of any particular situation arrives at a conclusion rapidly and spends all its time and effort not on an analysis of the validity of the judgment but on defending it tooth and nail against all comers.

If a neutral person is bombarded with a slanted view of things then they cannot objectively form a neutral opinion can they? So seeing facts from both sides is helpful in this case.

How about a third POV..Both sides in that conflict suck!

I'd agree with that to an extent: Both sides are guilty of crimes and take "an eye for an eye" to extremes. However, one side clearly has much more firepower than the other and is thus held to a higher standard.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In recent news on the study of bias it has been shown that pro Arab and pro Israeli folk shown news items on the conflict that are balanced each felt the news pointed out too many good things about the opposite party. In other words partisans do not see the same thing when they look at the same news and each fears that neutral people will be biased by this seemingly prejudiced news. But the facts are that the unbiased were not persuaded one way or the other by such news but saw good and bad in each side. In other words, the biased are truly the ones who are actually blind and the neutral the ones who can maintain some sense of objectivity. The implication is clear that if you have taken a side you cannot see. In fact the biased mind, in analyzing the good and bad of any particular situation arrives at a conclusion rapidly and spends all its time and effort not on an analysis of the validity of the judgment but on defending it tooth and nail against all comers.

If a neutral person is bombarded with a slanted view of things then they cannot objectively form a neutral opinion can they? So seeing facts from both sides is helpful in this case.

How about a third POV..Both sides in that conflict suck!

I'd agree with that to an extent: Both sides are guilty of crimes and take "an eye for an eye" to extremes. However, one side clearly has much more firepower than the other and is thus held to a higher standard.

They are held to a higher standard because they are looked upon as civilized where as the Hezbollah are look upon as savages, well at least in America. It's shocking to see the so called civilized nation lower themselves the the level of the savages.