Its time to end capital punishment in America, Another botched execution tonight...

[TheSiege]

Just google "inmates who commit suicide in prison" you come up with a shit ton of info. But I imagine your really not interested in doing that, am I right?

A was asking for a source, specifically a source were he got his information. I am sure I could find a lot of information, but I am more interested in suicides in prison as a whole instead of isolated events that get attention. And better yet, I'd like to see a study and not just someone bais agenda documentary.

 

[TheSiege]

What stats do you want? Percentages of people who try or succeed in committing suicide? I dont have 'em.

Why dont you check out some of these sites though. If someone actually needs to be convinced that prison is hell.

http://tommysilverstein.bravehost.com/

http://solitarywatch.com/

Or check out the doc on netflix called "solitary confinement"

Or watch "Lockup" on MSNBC. Older episodes especially that are focused on the state prisons rather than the local jails that are the focus of more recent episodes.

Or watch "Beyond Scared Straight"

There's a website I cant find that features documentation on conditions in the Texas system specifically. Wish I could find it right now. It's horrendous. DO I feel sorry for them? Should I? Is there a better solution? I dont have good answers. What I do know is that I dont want to REWARD them for their criminal acts, so making sure prison sucks seems to be the only alternative.

However, what I am hearing from you is that unless i can provide statistics that prisoners would rather die than be in prison, that prison is not cruel and unusual and as such does not violate the constitution. Am I hearing this correctly?

Prison might be cruel, not unusual. But its relative to your view. Its worse than freedom, but better than death. I would think

 

[chihlidog]

Prison might be cruel, not unusual. But its relative to your view. Its worse than freedom, but better than death. I would think

OK, so let's start executing everyone convicted of murder. Then it will no longer be unusual. Going by your post, this will then make it acceptable to you. OK?

 

[BoberFett]

I'm all in favor of raising the standard of evidence needed to execute someone, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a death penalty.

In a country where a poor person can be railroaded by a prosecutor with his eye on public office and a public defender who doesn't give a shit about his $30k/yr job, while a rich little shit can kill a bunch of people while driving high and get a year at a cushy rehab center, I don't trust the government to equitably or honestly apply the death penalty.

 

[irishScott]

In a country where a poor person can be railroaded by a prosecutor with his eye on public office and a public defender who doesn't give a shit about his $30k/yr job, while a rich little shit can kill a bunch of people while driving high and get a year at a cushy rehab center, I don't trust the government to equitably or honestly apply the death penalty.

We seem to be doing a decent job so far.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/innocent-death-penalty-study_n_5228854.html

Even from an anti-death-penalty source, about 4.1% of death row inmates could be exonerated. So raise the level of acceptable evidence and make that .5% or something. No system is every going to be perfect.

 

[BoberFett]

We seem to be doing a decent job so far.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/innocent-death-penalty-study_n_5228854.html

Even from an anti-death-penalty source, about 4.1% of death row inmates could be exonerated. So raise the level of acceptable evidence and make that .5% or something. No system is every going to be perfect.

4% is pretty damn awful. 1 in 25 is innocent? WTF?!

And even at 0.5%, that's great until you're that 1 in 200 innocent person with a needle in your arm. Talk about getting fucked by your own government...

 

[irishScott]

4% is pretty damn awful. 1 in 25 is innocent? WTF?!

And even at 0.5%, that's great until you're that 1 in 200 innocent person with a needle in your arm. Talk about getting fucked by your own government...

First of all I'm not even sure I trust that 4.1% number given the source's bias is well known and I don't have time to do extensive research today.

And that .5% could also just be getting fucked by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Personally I think a properly implemented death penalty would save many more lives than it would cost. Make the standard of evidence extremely high (caught on video with a full facial shot combined with DNA evidence or something), but make it mandatory for capital crimes convicted under that standard of evidence. The philosophy being if you commit first degree murder, and it's 100% guaranteed that you committed 1st degree murder, you get a bullet to the head and society moves on.

 

[bradly1101]

4% of the people on deathrow are innocent.
http://www.newsweek.com/one-25-executed-us-innocent-study-claims-248889
Another botched exectution.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ma-executions-drugs-lethal-injection/8476389/
Secrecy around the drug(s) being used.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/se...n-drugs-has-halted-two-executions-in-oklahoma
Its racist.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...-punishment-is-the-most-unusual-its-ever-been
It doesnt even prevent crime
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/18/death-penalty-not-a-deterrent_n_1434645.html
Its more expensive than life in prison
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/26/death-penalty-myths-debunk_n_4849901.html

Its time to end the death penalty, it really serves no purpose.

Agreed.

 

[TheSiege]

OK, so let's start executing everyone convicted of murder. Then it will no longer be unusual. Going by your post, this will then make it acceptable to you. OK?

I think you are having a hard time understanding me, I am saying the death penalty is cruel when it is carried out ineffectively. Like the current string of botched executions. Death and life sentences are not unusual. I think the death penalty should abolished because its more expensive, ineffective at stopping crime, and carries the possibility of executing an innocent person and its racist. And when it comes down to it, the death penalty has absolutely no benefit to society.

 

[CitizenKain]

We seem to be doing a decent job so far.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/innocent-death-penalty-study_n_5228854.html

Even from an anti-death-penalty source, about 4.1% of death row inmates could be exonerated. So raise the level of acceptable evidence and make that .5% or something. No system is every going to be perfect.

That one should be. No excuses at all.

 

[Knowing]

You do realize that just about everyone one of those amendments have been violated by the judicial and legislative processes right?

The constitution has no meaning in the US anymore...sigh

The government having violated (and the people allowing them to violate) n amendments, compromising any number of civil rights does not encourage me to give up on this one. If anything, it makes every right that remains marginally more valuable.

 

[irishScott]

That one should be. No excuses at all.

Then you're asking for the impossible. What's your threshold? 1 dead innocent every 10 years? Every 20? Every system, be it natural or man-made, screws over someone some of the time. Even Star Trek's Utopia does it. The question is whether the screwing over is worth it.

 

[cyclohexane]

more pain = better punishment. These murderers and rapist deserve no better.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Please provide evidence that Jefferson considered hanging or firing squad, or any other method of execution employed in the US at that time, cruel or unusual.

has anyone here claimed that these methods of execution are 'cruel or unusual'?

 

[Darwin333]

I don't think that guarantee can ever be 100%.

What is it called when an innocent person is killed?

When makes it acceptable when the state does it yet punishable by death when a citizen does it?

 

[Darwin333]

Then you're asking for the impossible. What's your threshold? 1 dead innocent every 10 years? Every 20? Every system, be it natural or man-made, screws over someone some of the time. Even Star Trek's Utopia does it. The question is whether the screwing over is worth it.

What is my threshold for innocent people murdered by the state? Absolutely zero.

That goes 10 fold considering that the death penalty no longer achieves any rational or civilized goal. It is not a deterrent for crime, it is not cheaper and it is not able to be undone. As you said, no system is perfect so why would anyone want to remove all ability to correct a wrong over something that provides society with absolutely nothing in return?

What is an acceptable rate of fuckups in your mind? Is 5ish% perfectly acceptable to you? An even better question to proponents of the death penalty, why do you want to spend more tax dollars to kill someone than locking them up for life?

 

[Darwin333]

First of all I'm not even sure I trust that 4.1% number given the source's bias is well known and I don't have time to do extensive research today.

And that .5% could also just be getting fucked by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Personally I think a properly implemented death penalty would save many more lives than it would cost. Make the standard of evidence extremely high (caught on video with a full facial shot combined with DNA evidence or something), but make it mandatory for capital crimes convicted under that standard of evidence. The philosophy being if you commit first degree murder, and it's 100% guaranteed that you committed 1st degree murder, you get a bullet to the head and society moves on.

I have a question for you that is a bit off topic.

Why do you suppose that Americans are so much more likely to be criminals than any other citizenry on the planet?

 

[Fern]

"Botched Execution"

That sounds potentially life-threatning. We need to spend lots and lots and lots of dollars to make executions safer.

LOL

-------------

To the others here - was his death worse than that of his viticm? If not, STFU:

Clayton Lockett, whose execution went wrong last night, was sentenced to death following the shocking murder of Stephanie Nieman, 19.

She was kidnapped, shot twice and buried alive in 1999 a month after she graduated from high school.

Lockett was involved in a botched raid on a house with two other men belonging to Bobby Bornt when Miss Neiman and another 19-year-old woman walked in.

Reports from the time said that Mr Bornt owed Lockett money and that he was tied up and beaten during the ordeal.

Miss Neiman's friend was dragged into the house and hit in the face with a shotgun.

Under duress, the friend then called Miss Neiman into the home and she was also hit in the face with the gun.

Her friend was raped by all three men before they were taken to a rural part of Kay County, Oklahoma

Lockett told them that he was going to kill them all but shot Miss Neiman twice when she refused to give her keys and pickup's alarm code.

When she was shot dead, she was stood in a shallow grave that had been dug by one of Lockett's accomplices, Shawn Mathis. He told Lockett that Miss Neiman was still alive, but Lockett ordered Mathis to bury her.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...xecution-shocking-crime-3478725#ixzz30PUw5KAa
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Signed: Don't give a damn.

 

[irishScott]

I have a question for you that is a bit off topic.

Why do you suppose that Americans are so much more likely to be criminals than any other citizenry on the planet?

Stupid drug laws combined with a widespread self-perpetuating "ghetto" culture in major cities that glorifies violence and crime.

 

[TheSiege]

I have a question for you that is a bit off topic.

Why do you suppose that Americans are so much more likely to be criminals than any other citizenry on the planet?

Are we? Or are we just more violent? Maybe our crimes our just more publicized? Where does it say that Americans are more likely to be criminals than anywhere else?

 

[irishScott]

What is my threshold for innocent people murdered by the state? Absolutely zero.

That goes 10 fold considering that the death penalty no longer achieves any rational or civilized goal. It is not a deterrent for crime, it is not cheaper and it is not able to be undone. As you said, no system is perfect so why would anyone want to remove all ability to correct a wrong over something that provides society with absolutely nothing in return?

What is an acceptable rate of fuckups in your mind? Is 5ish% perfectly acceptable to you? An even better question to proponents of the death penalty, why do you want to spend more tax dollars to kill someone than locking them up for life?

Then go ahead and kill yourself. Even nations without the death penalty inadvertently murder innocents every once in a while.

The death penalty would be a deterrent if it was applied more readily. Used to be being put on death row meant you were killed within a few weeks. Now it's often years or even decades of appeals before it happens. Note that I'm not saying that the death penalty should be applied to every crime or even nearly every crime, but IMO crimes like 1st degree rape and murder combined with an nigh-unimpeachable standard of evidence should have two sentences: death or indefinite incarceration in a mental facility, the latter only for those who can mount an insanity defense that holds up to scrutiny.

And it is cheaper, unless you're planning to argue that the cost of a bullet, a burial, some Ammonia and paper towels is somehow more expensive than housing, feeding and providing 1st class healthcare to a person for decades.

In my mind 5% is unacceptable, and the system needs serious reform; but reform to make it more effective as a deterrent and less likely to kill innocents, not reform to eliminate it.

 

[OutHouse]

The scumbag died just like a celebrity OD.

 

[TheSiege]

Then go ahead and kill yourself. Even nations without the death penalty inadvertently murder innocents every once in a while.

The death penalty would be a deterrent if it was applied more readily. Used to be being put on death row meant you were killed within a few weeks. Now it's often years or even decades of appeals before it happens. Note that I'm not saying that the death penalty should be applied to every crime or even nearly every crime, but IMO crimes like 1st degree rape and murder combined with an nigh-unimpeachable standard of evidence should have two sentences: death or indefinite incarceration in a mental facility, the latter only for those who can mount an insanity defense that holds up to scrutiny.

And it is cheaper, unless you're planning to argue that the cost of a bullet, a burial, some Ammonia and paper towels is somehow more expensive than housing, feeding and providing 1st class healthcare to a person for decades.

In my mind 5% is unacceptable, and the system needs serious reform; but reform to make it more effective as a deterrent and less likely to kill innocents, not reform to eliminate it.

That's a false equivalency. If life in prison isn't a deterrent, why would a swifter death penalty be? As some poster posted above, life in prison is worse than death. People aren't deterred by punishment.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

"For 2012, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.7"

 

[FrankRamiro]

hahahahaaa...yeah right...as if their victim was killed in a humane way...

(if their victim was killed in a humane way)
Yes i agree with you 100%
should this vile murderers spend their life in Jail wasting taxes payer money? laughing at their victims!and laughing at us all?

 

[irishScott]

That's a false equivalency. If life in prison isn't a deterrent, why would a swifter death penalty be? As some poster posted above, life in prison is worse than death. People aren't deterred by punishment.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

"For 2012, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.7"

Because life in prison is still life, and for many new prisoners is simply a transition from one very shitty life to another very shitty life. How many inmates on death row lobby hard for commuted sentences, even with the knowledge that they'll be in prison for the rest of their lives regardless? Pretty much all of them. Survival instinct is a bitch like that.

Death penalty states don't apply the death penalty properly; they suck all the deterrent out of it with endless appeals and an unlikelihood of sentencing.

And people are deterred by punishment, if they weren't then there'd be no point to the entire legal system.