It's time for National Health Care

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky

I suspect that is more related to our fondness for fatty foods than it does with the level of health care delivered.

What about infant mortality? Does that mean your babies have a fast food diet too? 😉

No, the US created a dependent class with the welfare handouts. Many of the people on welfare lost all sense of responsibility to themselves and their children. That is one of the causes of the high infant mortality rates.

Infant Mortality Within the United States

Bullshit. Republican mythology again..God I love this site🙂

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Farmall
We don't need National Health Care, not now, not ever.

What we do need is the end of serious gouging from the medical field which are probably a result of the huge amount of frivoulus(sp?) lawsuits against both the medical and insurance arena's. Recently I broke my wrist, I was amazed at the charges for the individual items used. A plastic splint was $96.80, the Ace wrap used cost $24.75, and I got one Tylenol for $2.60. When they got around to casting it a couple days later the cast material cost me $195. Needless to say the bill for a simple broken bone was in the thousands of $, I ended with my portion of the bill around $1,000.

If we have some form of government regulations on costs I could support that, but the end result of National Health Care is only huge increases in taxes and more than likely a lot less services given. The system in place in Canada is totally worthless, they are closing hospitals and nursing homes at an alarming rate, waiting lines exist based on "need". My brother-inlaw broke his leg skiing and had to lay in his hospital bed for THREE days before they came to fix it because there where people who had greater need than did he.

Farmall

Wooo supporting sometype of government regualtions on cost? Sounds pretty commi to me, what's next, cars to expensive?, microsoft charge to much for thier OS? Eggs should cost $.50 a dozen. The lawyers already are insidious in our current system I can hardy see how giving universal healthcare would increase this. The question still remains will it be cheaper and better if we insitute some sorta military style socialized universal heath care than what we have now. I say yes since we pay 4K per individual now and most countries with the system in place pay less and everyone is covered.

You will still have the option to buy the best private care since the insurance companies ar'nt going anywhere while at the same time yours and others basic heath care are covered for less than it costs the country now.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Tiger

We pay more per capita for healthcare than ANY 1st world and have the worst heath care

That's just wrong. The United States has the best health care system on the planet.
I've got health insurance. I don't want to pay for my own and someone elses.

Based on what indicators tiger?
America's healthcare-system-induced deaths are the third leading cause of the death in the U.S., after heart disease and cancer.

Also on that page
*World Health Organization ranked US 15th among 25 industrialized nations.
*This Journal of the American Medical Association ranked US 13th

 

[Farmall]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl

Originally posted by: Farmall
We don't need National Health Care, not now, not ever.

What we do need is the end of serious gouging from the medical field which are probably a result of the huge amount of frivoulus(sp?) lawsuits against both the medical and insurance arena's. Recently I broke my wrist, I was amazed at the charges for the individual items used. A plastic splint was $96.80, the Ace wrap used cost $24.75, and I got one Tylenol for $2.60. When they got around to casting it a couple days later the cast material cost me $195. Needless to say the bill for a simple broken bone was in the thousands of $, I ended with my portion of the bill around $1,000.

If we have some form of government regulations on costs I could support that, but the end result of National Health Care is only huge increases in taxes and more than likely a lot less services given. The system in place in Canada is totally worthless, they are closing hospitals and nursing homes at an alarming rate, waiting lines exist based on "need". My brother-inlaw broke his leg skiing and had to lay in his hospital bed for THREE days before they came to fix it because there where people who had greater need than did he.

Farmall

Wooo supporting sometype of government regualtions on cost? Sounds pretty commi to me, what's next, cars to expensive?, microsoft charge to much for thier OS? Eggs should cost $.50 a dozen. The lawyers already are insidious in our current system I can hardy see how giving universal healthcare would increase this. The question still remains will it be cheaper and better if we insitute some sorta military style socialized universal heath care than what we have now. I say yes since we pay 4K per individual now and most countries with the system in place pay less and everyone is covered.

You will still have the option to buy the best private care since the insurance companies ar'nt going anywhere while at the same time yours and others basic heath care are covered for less than it costs the country now.

I might be misguided on my suggestion, but the fact remains that if they would charge relatively close to what that crap actually cost them rather than gouging the sh!t out of the consumers on unbelievable margins we would not have the major problems now with the regard to insurance costs. You take a look at the charges I listed above, there isn't more than $15 worth of product, yet they felt the need to increase the price by somewhere in the area of 2500%. This is a major reason why our insurance costs are seriously inflated, and why there are so many people who flat out cannot afford insurance coverage. So what options do they have but to fall back on the government for healthcare in the form of Medical assistance and programs of that nature. I don't think that they would have to be in that situation if the cost where anywhere near reasonable.

 

[Linflas]

Carbonyl if I link to studies from the Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute, or American Enterprise Institute that show the opposite of the studies linked to by Korpios would you accept them as the cold hard facts you seem to think the ones on Korpios are? I will give the guy that runs Korpios credit for doing a great job of producing a compendium of statistics that support his view of the world but there are a ton of studies out there that use statistics to show just the opposite. As they say there are lies, damned lies, and statistics and I tend to be skepitcal of them all.

 

[vi edit]

Part of the reason that the costs of rather inexpensive items cost so much at a hospital are because they need to balance out costs and subsidize the costs of more expensive items. People would have an absolute sh!t fit if they saw a $20,000 bill for some whoop ass medication on their hospital bill. So, instead, the hospital bills them $5,000 and then averages the cost out on other services. That's why that single tylenol cost you $3.00.

 

[Stealth1024]

everywhere this has been tried it has failed, stupid idea.

 

[Spencer278]

Also different hospital will charge different amounts. Like were I live the idea behind the large hosital is, "we're nonprofit," so they will just waste money on anything if they have the money to waste. So that cost has to be pushed onto the patients in the form of 35 dollar ibprofeane.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Linflas
Carbonyl if I link to studies from the Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute, or American Enterprise Institute that show the opposite of the studies linked to by Korpios would you accept them as the cold hard facts you seem to think the ones on Korpios are? I will give the guy that runs Korpios credit for doing a great job of producing a compendium of statistics that support his view of the world but there are a ton of studies out there that use statistics to show just the opposite. As they say there are lies, damned lies, and statistics and I tend to be skepitcal of them all.

If the statistics support the conclusion how can you argue it unless you present mitgating factors? Opinion doesnt count. The statistics provide evidence of causeation which we can then draw an opinon/conclusion from. BTW-Cato has some very good stats on corporate welfare check em' out.

"the US created a dependent class with the welfare handouts. Many of the people on welfare lost all sense of responsibility to themselves and their children" is what etech says and most conservatives think however statistics can't verify this so it's pure speculation. Welfare payments pay less than a full-time minimum wage job (fact) and all studies show they would rather work (fact). So where is this incentive to be on welfare? Choice? no because they would rather work. Nessesity is more like it since stats show thier are less jobs than poeople. Next most leave the welfare roles within two years (fact) how is this creating a dependant class? Obviously not, it's helping these folks when they are down to get back on thier feet which they do as the statistics show.

 

[AvesPKS]

I couldn't figure out how to make it work, so whatever...


Red Dawn:

Why do you feel so compelled to force health care on those who feel no need to obtain it themselves?

 

[etech]

Carbonyl

Many of the people on welfare lost all sense of responsibility to themselves and their children" is what etech says and most conservatives think however statistics can't verify this so it's pure speculation.

"In August 1996, when the largely Republican-crafted welfare(reform) law was signed by President Clinton, there were 12.2 million people on welfare. The rolls had dropped to 5.7 million recipients by September 2000."


AvesPKS

Please don't quote such a large area only to make such a short reply. Quote only what particular section you need to make your point please.

 

[AvesPKS]

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
Take a look at your own CIA website. You Americans have the lowest life expectancy of any western country, the highest infant mortality, the highest death rate, and yet you spend the MOST on health care and are quite possibly the richest country on the planet. So to call your system the "best in the world" is a joke.

But hey, I'm sure its just some evil socialist plot

How much do these figures account for immigrants?

 

[Moonbeam]

My goodness what a load people carry. For several million years humans have survived as a result of their co-operative, social skills. The stronger, more fleet of foot hunt. Others make tools, decorate, pick tubers, entertain, transmit wisdom, a thousand things. Everybody provides for everybody else. There is only the group. There is no self independent of the group. Nobody needed to enslave anybody else. Life had a natural logic.

That natural logic still applies, but it has become obscured, particularly by practitioners of the cult of the individual. It's all about I me me mine. My labor, me income, my rights. Outside the group what rights do you have. Most people would die in the wilderness within days or weeks. Alone we are nothing. Everything we have is based on an agreement with other people. You survive because of others. Got money? It came from others and is useless without them.

The fantasy of every infantile mind is to be free, free of the burden of responsibility to others. It can be achieved only in fantasy or by the creation of organization dedicated to the needs that arise from a social structure that you personally would rather not perform. People suffer from medical problems because they can't afford treatment.

All I see are reasons why we can do nothing. That's not good enough. Delayed care, poor care, is it worse than no care. Oh oh, it's worse for me. Yeah, I can imagine. We have a problem with the cost of health care. How about lets make the coverage universal and then fix it. Let's not just fix it for some. Every system has problems. I would rather repair a total solution than a partial one. The stock objections to health care reform were created from huge contributions by interests that fear they will loose even more under a national plan. They include both workers in the health care industry and the insurance industry and the politicians they have bribed to do their bidding. How does such a piss poor country like Cuba have such a comparatively high standard of care. It's got to have a great deal to do with intention. What we must intend then is I me me mine.

 

[ElFenix]

i don't think the constitution allows for socialized health care.

 

[vi edit]

Delayed care, poor care, is it worse than no care.

Here's the problem though - most of us DO HAVE good health care and would be taking a step backwards under a government plan. The ones that don't either don't want it, don't want to pay for it, aren't entitled to it, or are turned away because the feds mucked things up.

Unless you have a physical or mental handicap that prevents you from working, then there is ZERO reason why can not get reasonable health care in this country.


I'm sorry, but demoting the care of 85% of the nation for 5% who are being screwed over by the same people who you want to have run your system is flat out ridiculous.

 

[vi edit]

How does such a piss poor country like Cuba have such a comparatively high standard of care

If Cuba has such a high standard of living, then how come we are turning them away by the boatload from there?

 

[Moonbeam]

You think those Cuban's are comming for the health care?

Also, any Cuban that gets here is automatically allowed in. Cubans are not turned away. We have to do everything we can to destroy Cuba because success there would prove a lie to everything we claim is true.

 

[JellyBaby]

Most of the big problems have been identified in this thread as well as some solutions. Politicians who cater to special interests can only expect to supply "solutions" that also cater to special interests. If you give the federal government supreme power to designate a health care system they will attempt to make select groups profit from it at the expense of other groups. It was tried under Clinton and they failed miserably.

They would up implementing "feel good" patches which of course made things worse. Deep down they actually enjoy failures because then they can come back later and say, "we'll fix the problem (created by past politicans)". People believe them and the cycle repeats.

The only solution is to get the federal government completely out of the picture. Unlimited and continous malpractice lawsuits must be stopped. Unnecessary and costly compliance regulation must end. More competition is needed. And somehow the insurance industry must either be investigated or completely eliminted from the picture and we move to a direct-pay for service fee program.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: AvesPKS
I couldn't figure out how to make it work, so whatever...


Red Dawn:

Why do you feel so compelled to force health care on those who feel no need to obtain it themselves?

Actually I really don't give a damn, I was just playing the Devil's Advocate to make this thread interesting.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


That natural logic still applies, but it has become obscured, particularly by practitioners of the cult of the individual. It's all about I me me mine. My labor, me income, my rights. .

Just curious moonbeam, what is it about us latly which makes this me mine I so? Seems to me more prevalent, weather we are talking about a person who sues for thier rights to wear nose rings while working as a nurse at the hospital or someone who complains about welfare, both selffish. It's not how I was tought.

 

[Random Variable]

In order for healthcare to become more affordable, people have to stop suing doctors and hospitals every two seconds. My father's friend was an obstetrician for 30 years, but he had to retire recently because he was being forced to pay $300,000 (every year) for malpractice insurance, even though his salary was less than $150,000.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
You think those Cuban's are comming for the health care?

Also, any Cuban that gets here is automatically allowed in. Cubans are not turned away. We have to do everything we can to destroy Cuba because success there would prove a lie to everything we claim is true.

what success?

 

[JellyBaby]

Originally posted by: Vespasian
In order for healthcare to become more affordable, people have to stop suing doctors and hospitals every two seconds. My father's friend was an obstetrician for 30 years, but he had to retire recently because he was being forced to pay $300,000 (every year) for malpractice insurance, even though his salary was less than $150,000.

It would seem both insurance lobbies and the gubment have us by the balls on this issue....isn't that fascism at work?

 

[Random Variable]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

Originally posted by: Vespasian
In order for healthcare to become more affordable, people have to stop suing doctors and hospitals every two seconds. My father's friend was an obstetrician for 30 years, but he had to retire recently because he was being forced to pay $300,000 (every year) for malpractice insurance, even though his salary was less than $150,000.

It would seem both insurance lobbies and the gubment have us by the balls on this issue....isn't that fascism at work?

No. You're missing the point. If doctors and hospitals didn't have to constantly worry about million (and billion) dollar lawsuits, healthcare would be so more affordable. I put almost all of the blame on out-of-control trial lawyers.

EDIT: In America today, Doctors and hospitals must bat 1.000.

 

[JellyBaby]

Lawsuits aren't the only problem. See my post a few notches down.