It's official: Tyan doesn't support their products.

[RedShirt]

Well, I'm looking at the bios for my Trusty old Abit BH6. I think Abit gave Bios Updates for that for 3 years.

I don't think chucky2 is asking for anything unreasonable, its just I can see both sides.

It doesn't matter what socket or slot the motherboard takes, it should be updated.

I have not been very fond Tyan, there tech support is terrible, and now this incident makes me want to stay away from them even more.

Of course, the Tyan fanboys that have never had a problem will come in and state how good Tyan is, but I seriously think they are way over rated for hardware enthusiasts like us.

 

[Yossarian]

chucky2 wrote:



<< Really, how hard do you think it would be for Tyan to open up the C file the BIOS is most likely written in, switch the reference for CPU Temp and System temp around, and recompile? Would that be so hard for them? No. Why is this so hard to do?
>>



I'm sure it would be very easy for them. Unfortunately it would not stop there. Once they made a little fix here, a little fix there, they're back wasting money supporting old products. Face it dude, your board is too old, it's way past its warranty, so you should be fortunate it works at all

 

[Lucky]

<< If a product is discontinued, doesn't that mean that it is no longer supported?? >>




Tell me if windows 3.1 or MSDOS is still in production. Both are still being supported by MS for another 3 weeks.

 

[RedShirt]

Hey now! When something is past its warentee it should still work!

Geesh, if everything my warentee expired something broke, I'd go insane!

What a company ought to so is say this:

"We will support our products 4 years from its release date," and make it known. I would buy from that company in a second. When I buy a product, I don't want to be forced to upgrade just because some feature that could be there isn't.

If the speed of your system is fine, and everything is fine with your system, shelling out 100 bucks or more for an upgrade is a waste of money. Heck, he'd shell out more that that. Who now would buy a Socket 7 board? He'd probably shell out 100 or so for an Athlon board, then an Athlon Processor and then an Athlon Power Supply, new fan etc etc! That adds up.

A company should have one person hired, just one would be fine probably, that takes care of old products. When someone e-mails them about a problem, this person would fix it. This would make the customers happy and they would probably be a repeat buyer due to the pleasent experiance.

 

[wdb1966]

Hell...Tyan doesn't have to DO any coding, just post the friggin' existing BIOS updates, even if they are NOT official.

 

[chucky2]

I really have to make this short, as I have to do 2 finals tonight that are due tomorrow (hey, I am a procrastinator!)

So, I'll just make a couple of statements and then check back in tomorrow.....

There is a 1.06e BIOS for the S1598. I'm running it and it is stable. It cures problems in Windows 2000 and Windows XP. One user has reported that the 1.06e BIOS reduced, but not eliminated, ACPI errors that were happening with Windows XP. Tyan, for whatever reason (most likely so we have to buy another motherboard) won't release even the 1.06e as Beta, and thus is purposely not providing even support that they could easily provide.

Tyan says the S1598 is ACPI compliant. Yet when users enable ACPI in Windows 2000 or Windows XP, they do not have a complian (or stable) platform. This tells me that Tyan is incorrect in saying that the S1598 is ACPI compliant. For me, APM works fine in Windows XP. The issue comes into play when more devices are added. For advanced resource sharing, my understanding is that ACPI is much better than APM. So, if ACPI is broke, then exactly how is one to use it when they have many peripherals?

Now, I don't have the box in front of me, but I could have sworn, there was a 3 year warranty on this motherboard. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right.

I have no doubt that it would take a (1) Tyan engineer 2-3 hours to fix this motherboard. Hell, the 1.06e already goes most of the way in fixing it.

2-3 hours is an impossible task for Tyan, who is supposed to be so great?!

LOL! What happens to all you dual Socket-A owners out there when the Geforce 4 comes out and you need a BIOS update to run it properly?

You fire off an e-mail to Tyan Support. It goes unanswered. You fire off 10, they go unanswered. You e-mail marketing, they ask you what's wrong...you tell them....you never here back from them. There's some BIOS out there (not from Tyan, just on some random website) that sort of fixes your problems. You plead with Tyan Support just to release the BIOS that you found, but they say the product is outdated (hell, Hammer line is out by then, Palamino's are old news, they obviously can't get the job done, Right?) so they won't support you.

Your telling me that you'd just go, "Wow, Tyan is right! My stuff is old and outdated, I should upgrade!" (well, if you had a lot of money, this could be a lucky option for you) But, realistically - Please. You'll be here outraged that Tyan basically told you they won't support you since you don't have their newest product.

And the people that have the newest Tyan motherboard (that haven't been left high and dry by them yet) will be here telling you, "Geez, what do you expect! That thing is like 1.25 years old! Its ancient! Get a dual Hammer 3GHz and you won't have any problems! What do you expect, that thing is like 50 years old in computer years!"

Except, I don't live in computer years, I live in real world years. And, to me, the real world doesn't need a 2GHz CPU to run office, e-mail, surf the 'Net (unless you believe Intel), or rip CD-R's.

I see what everyone is trying to tell me, and that is my motherboard is 2 years old, and its based on outdated technology. Sticking with the car example (which I admit is very loose), when Ford switched from the 5.0 to the 4.6 in the Mustang's, the 5.0 owners warranties just didn't up and disappear. Magically, they were still honored. To Ford, the 5.0 was outdated. To everyone driving their 5.0's, their engines were getting the job done just as good as the 4.6's. That's what we have here.

So, if I do have a 3 year warranty on my motherboard, should I expect support, or is my platform still too old?

Honestly, when does it stop? When your one motherboard release from newest? 2? 3?

For me, I can live with my motherboard as it is. Thank god for wherever that 1.06e came from, because its helped more than a few people now. Left up to Tyan, those people would be up the creek.

I just wanted to warn people that this is what they can expect from Tyan.

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

Last post until I get at least one of these things done:

wdb1966- "Hell...Tyan doesn't have to DO any coding, just post the friggin' existing BIOS updates, even if they are NOT official."


Exactly. But, since our motherboards are, like, 50 computer years old, this cannot be a possible option.

No, the best option (at least for Tyan) is to deny users of their past producy support that they can easily provide.

How this equals repeat customers I have no idea, but I guess when your selling your boards for double the amount of money, you can loose twice as many customers and still be in the same shape. (I know, I know, its not really exactly economically true, but you get my point).

Chuck

 

[RedShirt]

Ok, here's what you do.

Crap in a box, wrap it up, send it to Tyan.

Tell them your returning the favor.

 

[AA0]

chucky, you're right. Problem is you spent money on windows 2k or win XP, so maybe if you don't have the money to spend, you shouldn't have upgraded.

You can use win95, or 98 to get email, surf, rip CDs etc so why do you need winXP? Why do you need all these features that you didn't have before?

You don't need a 2Ghz comp to run office, but you don't need XP either. Do not upgrade your hardware with software newer than it, ok? Just because a version of a feature was in one board, and was working with the old systems, doesn't mean the new versions and support will work with it. Especially when that hardware really wasn't a completed design back then, most socket 7s don't have acpi, mine doesn't.

 

[RedShirt]

Hmm... Funny. I thought XP/2000 supported Socket 7... Anyone else agree?

Funny that Microsoft supports chipsets and processors that are not the latest and greatest...

It almost seems, that they THINK that these systems can run their operating systems GASP!

 

[AA0]

it supports it, but don't expect every new feature to work. Remember, just because a board has a AGP slot, or a PCI slot, does it mean it has the newest version? no

Things change, live with it. If you bought XP pro, you could have a new board and cpu right now for that price, cheaper actually.

 

[RedShirt]

Some people like having a more stable computer. I leave my computer on for weeks with XP.

People might not want the fastest computer, but they may want the stability of XP.

Tyan is the one to blame here, not chucky2 for purchasing XP.

According to the system requirements of XP, his system meets it! It should work.

 

[AA0]

want stability? run linux.

again, he has an old version of hardware. They often don't work with new versions quite the same. XP works doesn't it? Does XP promise ACPI support? maybe MS is to blame, ever think about that?

I bet you it does have it, just not the standard new version, and of course MS isn't supporting it.

 

[RedShirt]

<< want stability? run linux.

again, he has an old version of hardware. They often don't work with new versions quite the same. XP works doesn't it? Does XP promise ACPI support? maybe MS is to blame, ever think about that?

I bet you it does have it, just not the standard new version, and of course MS isn't supporting it. >>



Ugh! Now what's the point of running Linux on your main computer for your main OS? Not that I have anything against Linux, but it just makes no sense, the software library just isn't there for it.

It boils down to this. His system meets XP system requirements, his board says it supports ACPI. There are problems.

Tyan should step up and fix this problem. Again, I can see it from Tyan's standpoint, but really, are you guys arguing that it is OK for componies to stop supporting products about 2 years after they are made?

Take for instance the SB Live! It has been out for 2 years and Creative still supports it. People that have this card don't want to upgrade because they have 2 or 4 speakers and the soundcard does what they need. If creative just dropped support people would be mad.

Think about what you are trying to justify.

So, how old should a product be before it is unsupported?

 

[chucky2]

Well, I'm making more headway faster than I thought I would, so I just came to check in the thread.

AA0- I didn't spend money on anything. I have a Corporate version of Windows XP, given to me by the company I work for.

Not only did I upgrade for enhanced stability, but I was told to by the IT guy at work. They are making the move from NT 4.0 Workstation to Windows XP Pro, and he asked me to do the same so everyone was running the same OS = less support hassles.

Want to get work done without having to worry if you can run the same program your customer is running? Get Windows.

I know Linux is stable; and fast; and free. That's great. I really don't care. I'm running Windows XP, which is basically what I have to be running.

Exacly how many versions and revisions of ACPI are there?

RedShirt- Thank you for your understanding, and support.

Chuck

 

[wdb1966]

I'm putting the BETA BIOS files in my Edonkey2000 & Morpheus shared folder so at least some people can use them.

 

[Pariah]

How long the warranty is doesn't matter. Warranty only covers defective hardware, not future compatability. You can complain all you want, whether you are right or not is irrelevant, this is a policy that the companies take, and they aren't going to change it, nor should they. There is no way they are going to waste resources on 2 year old hardware, when most of these companies don't have the proper personnel to get their current hardware working properly.

 

[chucky2]

wdb1966- Thanks! At least this way, people won't have to e-mail me when they need the mysterious 1.06e BIOS to get their machine to work correctly.

Of course, Tyan should have this up on at least their BETA page, but since they have no concern for their customers, they don't.

I went and looked at the product desciption page for the S1598. It is located here: S1598 Product Description Page.

Now, providing my eyes aren't deceiving me (I've got 20/20 vision, a Matrox G400, and a KDS AV-195TF monitor, so eye strain can be rules out), right under warrranty towards te bottom of the page it does say 3 years.

Now, if I add 3 years from when the first BIOS was released (the 1.04a), I get 6/21/2002 as being 3 years from when the first S1598's were sold.

This should be accurate, as Tyan's press release here shows a date of 6/15/1999.

So, since its only 12-10-2001, where is my support? My motherboard is well within the warranty period, and I didn't even buy this thing when they first came out. Technically, my warranty probably extends to something like 2003. So, what gives?

Its not my fault that technology has surpassed Tyan's warranty that they sold me. They need to honor their warranty and provide the support they promised.

Chuck

 

[wdb1966]

If it is a 3-year, then they are obligated to "repair" the broken BIOS...which is out of spec as far as ACPI goes...maybe they would prefer to credit my $120 towards another board?

I do still have the box, manual & sales receipt...

 

[SilentRunning]

Page 7 of manual states:

Software Specifications

OS ?Operates with Windows 95, Windows 98,
Windows NT 4.0, OS/2 v4.0, Novell Netware v5.0,
and SCO Unix v5.05

I don't see any claim that this board is compatible with Windows 2000 or WinXP

EDIT: Furthermore it does not state that it is ACPI 1.0b compliant instead it states:

?APM 1.2 / ACPI 1.0 / PC98 compliant

 

[gogeeta13]

<< gogeeta13, that is why it is called an analogy. Many times it is easier to understand certain things by providing an example from items and goods which people use on everyday baisis. >>



No, i know exactly what an analogy is, I am saying his comparison of warranties is void, because the scale at which you own and have a warranty on a care can not be compared on an even close to "level" plane

 

[AA0]

the problem is, how do you know its even possible to fix this in the bios? If you know that it is, you could probably write your own and fix it. A bios isn't magic, you are limited by whats on the board.

 

[chucky2]

OK, let me just break it down real simple like (so even I can understand myself):

1. ACPI is broken in Windows XP and/or Windows 2000. When using the official, latest BIOS available from Tyan, the 1.06c, something like 4 ACPI errors are produced in the Event Viewer (Sean, a user, has reported this to me, as I am running APM mode and not ACPI). The website where the 1.06e used to reside (before the website vanished) had a readme file that stated simply "Fixes ACPI". Now, Sean reports that flashing to 1.06e reduces, but not eliminates the ACPI errors to 2. Another user reported that he could not shut down the computer when using Windows XP with the 1.06c BIOS. Flashing to the 1.06e BIOS cured the problem. I never thought to ask him to look in the Event Viewer, so I don't know if he had the same results as Sean. Now, I'm not an expert (obviously I'm not, since experts simply throw out their older than present release motherboards to buy the latest bleeding edge technology, thereby solving all their problems) but what it sounds like to me is that some beta release is solving half of the ACPI issues in Windows XP. This mysterious BIOS isn't anywhere to be found on Tyan's website, only the less than desirable 1.06c is there.

So, what gives? Why can't Tyan just put up at least the 1.06e BIOS on the Beta part of their BIOS Download Page. That way, anyone flashing to it knows that they do so at their own risk, but at least they have the option to see if it fixes their problems. This solution somehow isn't desirable to Tyan, even though it would take probably, and I'm just guessing here, about 10-15 minutes for the BIOS engineer to find the 1.06 .bin file, e-mail it to the webmaster with a note to post in the Beta section indefinitely. Really, how hard is that?!

2. Sustained IDE transfers. Users have reported that the S1598 has slow sustained IDE transfers. In case Tyan is reading this, pay attention to the word "sustained". This does not mean burst, it means sustained. I'm tired and still have work to do, so I hope everyone reading knows the difference (if not, please head on over to StorageReview for an explanation) So, benchmarking the S1598 against a ATA-100 motherboard, each using the same (presumably, since no test parameters were supplied...how convenient) ATA-100 hard disk, having the S1598 be 30% slower, and pronouncing everything as fine doesn't fly. The S1598 should easily be able to feed the hard drive with enough data during sustained reads/writes so that they results against an ATA-100 hard drive don't differ 30%.

Someone please tell me which IDE hard drive can peak above 66MB/s for sustained reads/writes. Last thing I heard, there isn't one. (if there is tell me, because that'll be my next purchase). Epox had a problem very similiar to this with one of their Super-7 motherboards, and they fixed/allievated it with a BIOS flash. No, I don't remember which one. When I have time, I'll try to find out over at the AMDZone K6-X Forum. Users of the FIC VA-503+ report increased IDE speeds from the JE4333 BIOS. So, a BIOS update can cure slow hard drive performance.

3. Broken temperature indicators. I really can't believe Tyan let this one just sit for so long. At the very least of all the problems listed here, they could fix this one. The damn CPU temperature and System temperature are switched around in the BIOS. How's that for attention to detail? The 1.06e already fixes this, so I really don't see how hard it would be for Tyan to fix this.

They just don't want to, since they've already got out money. New Tyan owners watch closely. You think you might get support when you need it, but its clear that you won't. If Tyan can't even be bothered to fix a simple temperature readout (its sat broken on their website for coming up on 2 years now. What makes you think when you have a real support issue that they'll even acknowledge you?

So, there's the problems (at least all the ones I know about).

The oldest living S1598 is still within warranty. That leaves mine well within warranty.

If Tyan didn't want to provide support for such an old product, then they should have chopped the warranty in half before they started selling the things.

Really, its simple to me: If I sell a product that has a 3 year warranty, then if it breaks within 3 years, I'm obligated to fix it. The S1598 is broke, and Tyan needs to fix it. This shouldn't be too hard, since the 1.06e BIOS already clears up half of issue 1 and all of issue 3. Don't know about 2 though.

Chuck

 

[AA0]

for the temp indicators, who cares? They work, just not labelled right, or maybe you put the fans on the wrong pins?

You are using a VIA chipset. Their old chipsets never had good IDE throughput, furthermore, you are using a Super7 board, which probably has DMA33 on it. Do you expect it to compare to a 100DMA drive? You are asking for them to get a design that is super dead to work like it was made last week.

 

[RedShirt]

Screw this thread!!!

Kick me, Ban me, do what you will, but this is the most sorry thread I have ever seen in my entire life!

You guys are arguing against chucky2 saying support of older products is unneeded!

My F***ing GOD people!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Listen to yourselves! You are telling chucky2 that he is wrong for wanting his product to work like it should!

I'm out, done with this thread forever, this is a disgrace.