It's not MY fault for dressing provocatively. It's YOUR fault for looking at me!

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chipwitch

Senior member
Jan 28, 2016
297
0
0
Ah right, I haven't explained me stance on morality.

Typically, the religious claim that morality is absolute; the texts decide what is moral what isn't. And there are others that claim morality is subjective; these people tend to be moral relativists, that believe morality is dictated by personal belief and perhaps culture.

Ah, moral objectivism... Ok.

If you were to list 10 things that you thought were "good" and 10 things you thought were "bad" from an "objective", things that you were certain were "objective," then surveyed a hundred people who had never been influenced by religion (good luck finding them), you would have disagreement. From your perspective you perceive that your morality is "objective". It certainly feels that way.

"Objective" is defined as - "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: " (dictionary.com)

Anything deemed "good" or "bad" will ALWAYS be subject to the biases of the individual. Take for example, one of the strongest examples (by my biases) that demonstrates a disparity in contrary morality.... This is sick, in my mind:

NAMBLA has a motto "Sex before 8, else it's too late" or something to that effect. These are men who strongly believe that sex with innocent children is "good" morally. EVERYONE, I personally knows would STRONGLY disagree... most even calling such behavior "evil."

The point is, morality cannot be objective. Every terrorist who's ever killed (innocent, men women AND children), has done so because it was the "right" thing morally. For morality to be objective, one must be able to sense it by some physical means. Since morality is a purely philosophical endeavor, physical perception of it is not possible.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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You're conflating your statistic of "abduction" (.0013%) to mine of "sex abuse of girls" (20-25%). .0013%, in that case is a straw man because I posit that sex abuse of a child causes permanent emotional scars. If one finds sex abuse of their daughter (20-25% chance) to be no more harmful than a skinned knee, then I understand the reluctance to withhold photo sharing. We aren't talking about school photos here. We're talking about naked pictures.

All children have targets on their backs. Girls have much bigger ones. Sex predators are a reality.

You are going to have to find that stat somewhere, because I cannot. At best I am finding the 1-5 rape stat, but that one is already stupid as it includes couples getting drunk and having willing sex. It is rape because drunk people cannot consent. I cannot find anything that says 1-5 or 1-4 child girls are molested.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
So why is it that there are some in European countries that blame the women, and how they dress, for contributing to the issue of sexual misconduct by male Muslim refugees?

They painted themselves in a corner with their ego and self righteousness,
because they care more about what the right wing thinks and can use against them then the rights of women, any other day they would point the finger at the men.

And the saddest most ironic thing is they will enable and bring into power the very right wing people they claim to be against with this idiotic behavior that even a child can see through.
 

chipwitch

Senior member
Jan 28, 2016
297
0
0
If you need a laid down code of conduct with magical punishments for disobeying it in order to be a reasonably decent human being to others, you have problems.
^ this +1
I think there are objective morals because there are so many non-religious people who have no desire to rape, kill and thieve without giving it any thought.

Then this? Both are sets of codes of conduct. Both provide punitive measures. A lack of desire of something isn't evidence of morality.

I have no desire to eat ketchup straight from the bottle. It is NOT evidence that it is "wrong" to do so.

First, rape is rarely about sex. It's usually about violence and/or domination and/or control. Second, people don't generally rape because it isn't in their self interest to do so. Self interest is the very basis for ALL morality.
 

chipwitch

Senior member
Jan 28, 2016
297
0
0
I've been incredibly constrained to posting thanks to an incredibly busy time of my job at the moment - but I've thought to set aside some time today to clarify one specific thing here.....

It's definitely not a surprise to realize that plenty of people here are having some issues creating the connection between the thread title and the topic of the thread. Though, it's certainly not surprising to realize which users are having issues making those incredibly huge mental milestones of making those connections. Surprising? Hardly. It's tough for these people to make monetary connections, let alone metaphorical connections. It's much easier to fool yourself into thinking you're halfway past the average IQ by saying "THAT'S A SCARECROW!11!1!one!1". It's also pretty hilarious of the correlating political stance of those that are failing to comprehend this amazing logic - even though it was posted as early as the first page for many people to clarify.

But once again, the people that have an understanding of simple sarcasm and logical thought process is not surprising. The correlation is rather hilarious though from an outsiders point of view. Carry on, this thread is making me laugh hysterically.

And we greatly appreciate you paying us in kind. LOL
 

chipwitch

Senior member
Jan 28, 2016
297
0
0
You are going to have to find that stat somewhere, because I cannot. At best I am finding the 1-5 rape stat, but that one is already stupid as it includes couples getting drunk and having willing sex. It is rape because drunk people cannot consent. I cannot find anything that says 1-5 or 1-4 child girls are molested.

Did I not post a link previously? In response to your incredulity the first time? If I didn't, I apologize as I certainly had intended to.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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Did I not post a link previously? In response to your incredulity the first time? If I didn't, I apologize as I certainly had intended to.

Not that I saw. I just went through again, and the only thing I found was a response where you said you dont remember. Did you post something else?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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realibrad: If I am, then I am not aware.

M; No if about it which is why I told you.

r: If God is internal and I cannot separate myself from him, then my mind is not my own and you are thus arguing with God.

M: When something is an 'if' to you and you have no internal certainty, do not go with a 'them' because you are not able to reach the logical conclusion and are just making shit up like you did with utility. Consider yourself in a hopeless trap where every thought you have is a trick your ego plays to cause you to identify with it. You are not your ego and yet all of you you call yourself IS ego. That is the trap from which there is no exit. Se the trap and stop going away from the fact there is no escape. You can't escape the trap with thought, you can only make it disappear by ending thought and becoming real. To be real is to be. To awaken in the now. God is being and you are him when you are too. We ran away from ourselves because we were told we are worthless. You know that is a lie because you know that utility implies value. How do you know, because you used to be a long time ago.

So I have god internalized telling me what is utility maximizing and thus moral, but I am making shit up?
 

chipwitch

Senior member
Jan 28, 2016
297
0
0
When something is an 'if' to you and you have no internal certainty, do not go with a 'them' because you are not able to reach the logical conclusion and are just making shit up like you did with utility. Consider yourself in a hopeless trap where every thought you have is a trick your ego plays to cause you to identify with it. You are not your ego and yet all of you you call yourself IS ego. That is the trap from which there is no exit. Se the trap and stop going away from the fact there is no escape. You can't escape the trap with thought, you can only make it disappear by ending thought and becoming real. To be real is to be. To awaken in the now. God is being and you are him when you are too. We ran away from ourselves because we were told we are worthless. You know that is a lie because you know that utility implies value. How do you know, because you used to be a long time ago.

Whoa! That is some really deep shit.... I mean really DEEP. If you had a toilet that was 100 stories tall and you shit in it everyday over a lifetime THAT is what "this" is.

I'm still trying to determine if this is hedonistic or zen. A real head scratcher for sure. o_O
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,495
571
136
Ah, moral objectivism... Ok.

If you were to list 10 things that you thought were "good" and 10 things you thought were "bad" from an "objective", things that you were certain were "objective," then surveyed a hundred people who had never been influenced by religion (good luck finding them), you would have disagreement. From your perspective you perceive that your morality is "objective". It certainly feels that way.

Ain't morality the measurement of harm (un)done/prevented?

For example: Raping a woman is morally wrong, preventing a man from raping a woman is morally good, providing support and therapy to a rape victim is morally good.

The first causes severe and permanent harm to the woman, with the rapist deriving significant pleasure from the rape.

The second avoids the woman from suffering the act, as the rapist has been neutralized. This is good, as the morally wrong act has been prevented through the efforts of others.

The third endeavors to help the victim in continuing with life, as well as providing emotional support. This is good, as it is an attempt to negate some of the harm done in favour of the victim.


I'll concede that morality isn't so simple as the following exchange:

"This is bad!"

"No it isn't!"

"You're wrong!"

"Oh, you're right."

Naturally, explaining of why acts are moral, are immoral, is necessary to pass judgement. The issue arises is when people claim something to be moral or not in absence of moral reasoning; I.E, it's immoral to eat pork because the book says so. Or that it's immoral to wear more than one fabric because the book says so. Or that it's immoral to suggest that seawater and freshwater mix, because the book says they don't.


"Objective" is defined as - "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: " (dictionary.com)

Anything deemed "good" or "bad" will ALWAYS be subject to the biases of the individual. Take for example, one of the strongest examples (by my biases) that demonstrates a disparity in contrary morality.... This is sick, in my mind:

NAMBLA has a motto "Sex before 8, else it's too late" or something to that effect. These are men who strongly believe that sex with innocent children is "good" morally. EVERYONE, I personally knows would STRONGLY disagree... most even calling such behavior "evil."

Ah, but it's objectively not moral. It will almost always result in damage to the child, and the adults 'having sex' with the children do so in spite of that, and go so far as to claim it's a morally white course of action.

Measure up the harm done/averted, as well as those that, err, gain from having sex with kids. It becomes blindingly apparent that it's not moral at all. And I do suspect their claim of it being moral is just some sort of pathetically thin smokescreen to protect themselves.

The point is, morality cannot be objective. Every terrorist who's ever killed (innocent, men women AND children), has done so because it was the "right" thing morally. For morality to be objective, one must be able to sense it by some physical means. Since morality is a purely philosophical endeavor, physical perception of it is not possible.

I beg to differ. Measure up the harm done versus the harm averted, keeping in mind that religion is just barbaric mythology; slaughter and murder, because the book commands it, does not invert the colour of the morally black act.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126

I can see why you are confused. The way they say it is very misleading.

1-5 girls of the 9.2%. Your eye naturally goes to the bullet points, but if you don't fully read the beginning you will miss that the bullet points are a sub metric of the original group.

If you read a little further, you also get another statement that should help.

A Bureau of Justice Statistics report shows 1.6 % (sixteen out of one thousand) of children between the ages of 12-17 were victims of rape/sexual assault (page 18)

Whats more interesting is that the BJS report that they get their data from only goes to age 12 as the youngest. It also does not define what is sexual assault or rape.

Keep in mind, that 1.6% is combined rape and assault. I have seen many times were a child kisses another and that is sexual assault.
 

chipwitch

Senior member
Jan 28, 2016
297
0
0
Ain't morality the measurement of harm (un)done/prevented?
Okay... I'll play.

Define "harm." It will always be relative to something else. I could make an argument that human life destroys an otherwise pristine, thriving planet teeming with life. There is nothing more beautiful than nature (but that too is a subjective opinion, right?). Therefore, anything that promotes human life, "harms" nature.

Humans mere existence DOES destroy nature. I'm personally not of the opinion that humans must be destroyed to preserve it. I'm merely pointing out that "harm" is relative.
[/quote]
For example: Raping a woman is morally wrong, preventing a man from raping a woman is morally good, providing support and therapy to a rape victim is morally good.

The first causes severe and permanent harm to the woman, with the rapist deriving significant pleasure from the rape.
[/quote]
How do you know the rapist does it for "pleasure?" Why can it not be simply he seeks to propagate his genes, so that they might continue? Vikings raped the vanquished, not for "pleasure," they did it to assimilate a culture, to perpetuate their ideals, their culture. To deprive Vikings of rape, to them, would have been a form of genocide.

Do I think rape is "wrong." Sure. Absolutely. Do I recognize that it is my own opinion and not something than anyone with eyes can see (objective)? Certainly not. You can not measure "harm" without stating the criteria by which to measure it. Stating that criteria is based on personal biases. Personal bias by definition is NOT objective.
Measure up the harm done/averted, as well as those that, err, gain from having sex with kids. It becomes blindingly apparent that it's not moral at all. And I do suspect their claim of it being moral is just some sort of pathetically thin smokescreen to protect themselves.

I understand that your "suspicion" is the only way in which you can make sense of it. But, the argument around morality is a very old one. One needs not study the arguments long to discern that you can't have morality without valuing one thing above another. The value of anything is purely subjective.
 

chipwitch

Senior member
Jan 28, 2016
297
0
0
I can see why you are confused. The way they say it is very misleading.

I admit I didn't read it thoroughly. The "bullet points" are actually specific to the preceding paragraph, the topic of which is about a single particular study. So, according to THAT study, 1 in 5 is accurate.

Also, one needs look no further than Wikipedia to find further references. One source there is cited supporting that as well. Here

I think your confusion is in the first paragraph I originally linked to... which states

"The prevalence of child sexual abuse is difficult to determine because it is often not reported; experts agree that the incidence is far greater than what is reported to authorities. "

That is immediately followed by the paragraph you reference where the
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services’ Children’s Bureau , arguably the "authorities" referenced in green which states the 9.2% number you cite.

Look at that page again. It's a bibliography citing various sources with a quick overview of the claims those individual studies found.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Ah, moral objectivism... Ok.

If you were to list 10 things that you thought were "good" and 10 things you thought were "bad" from an "objective", things that you were certain were "objective," then surveyed a hundred people who had never been influenced by religion (good luck finding them), you would have disagreement. From your perspective you perceive that your morality is "objective". It certainly feels that way.
Objectivism doesn't require universal agreement. If I believe 2+2=19 that doesn't mean 2+2=4 isn't objectively true (in base 10).
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,739
6,760
126
So I have god internalized telling me what is utility maximizing and thus moral, but I am making shit up?

Exactly. You intuit there is a truth as to why you have a moral impulse and what morality is but you operate on assumptions that prevent you from contact with that source. For you to see the reality as it is would to you imply you're insane. That is your ego pretending and making up shit. The truth isn't sane. It requires you to be madly in love. Think how deeply you yearn that life be good and how much effort you put into your fantastical notions as to why it must be. But the universe is already absolutely perfect and no effort at all is needed. There is only love. You just have to die in her arms. Morality is the actions which happen when ONE IS. It doesn't come from concepts and ideas. It is the action of conscious being, when the lover and the beloved are one. Relax and be happy.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
No, I'm granting you your position and arguing from there. I don't agree with your position.

My position is that what is moral is simply another way of saying that it benefits society in the long run. If you have an example of something that is moral that is not simply for the long term good of society, then please tell me.
 

ctbaars

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,565
160
106
I look at pretty women. The level of skin is an enticement. My wife sometimes points them out to me and we have a discussion. She's my best friend.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I admit I didn't read it thoroughly. The "bullet points" are actually specific to the preceding paragraph, the topic of which is about a single particular study. So, according to THAT study, 1 in 5 is accurate.

Also, one needs look no further than Wikipedia to find further references. One source there is cited supporting that as well. Here

I think your confusion is in the first paragraph I originally linked to... which states

"The prevalence of child sexual abuse is difficult to determine because it is often not reported; experts agree that the incidence is far greater than what is reported to authorities. "

That is immediately followed by the paragraph you reference where the
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services’ Children’s Bureau , arguably the "authorities" referenced in green which states the 9.2% number you cite.

Look at that page again. It's a bibliography citing various sources with a quick overview of the claims those individual studies found.

You are still reading it wrong.

Check here.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/cm2014.pdf

On the 4th page, you can clearly see an update stat that 8.3% "of" the children abused were abused sexually.

Here is their definition of sexual abuse.
SEXUAL ABUSE: A type of maltreatment that refers to the involvement of the child in sexual activity
to provide sexual gratification or financial benefit to the perpetrator, including contacts for sexual
purposes, molestation, statutory rape, prostitution, pornography, exposure, incest, or other sexually
exploitative activities.

All of those things are bad, but not all of those things are the type of abuse we are talking about. Showing a 16yo porn is considered sexual abuse by their definition.

So again, much much lower.

Now, if we look at the data you linked to, you see that its a meta analysis of a lot of different data sets. You have huge outliers such as Africa where in their culture, sexual activity is normalized but we in the US would consider it abuse. Child marriage and sexual activity is not uncommon but it will skew the data. If you are going to compare the US to Africa and other 3 world locations, then you are going to greatly increase the numbers.

The report does not say 1-5 girls are sexually abused out of the entire group. Check it again, and you will see. You seem reasonable enough, so just look over the data.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
My position is that what is moral is simply another way of saying that it benefits society in the long run. If you have an example of something that is moral that is not simply for the long term good of society, then please tell me.
Then quit using morality, call it what it is.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Exactly. You intuit there is a truth as to why you have a moral impulse and what morality is but you operate on assumptions that prevent you from contact with that source. For you to see the reality as it is would to you imply you're insane. That is your ego pretending and making up shit. The truth isn't sane. It requires you to be madly in love. Think how deeply you yearn that life be good and how much effort you put into your fantastical notions as to why it must be. But the universe is already absolutely perfect and no effort at all is needed. There is only love. You just have to die in her arms. Morality is the actions which happen when ONE IS. It doesn't come from concepts and ideas. It is the action of conscious being, when the lover and the beloved are one. Relax and be happy.

So, I have something internal compelling me to truth and something else compelling me to deception. I have no ability to tell the difference and yet somehow I am supposed to figure out which one is right through feelings, which are already corrupted.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Then quit using morality, call it what it is.

You are not answering my question.

The definition of morality is this.
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

I seem to be using it correctly, but I cannot see where you disagree with me. Morality can be explained as right and or wrong in terms of long term benefit to society.

So, do you agree that morality is the thing that benefits society in the long run? If not, can you give me an example?