It's coming, Tuesday

[etech]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It's always nice to see there's still folks around who actually thing the recount of florida showed Bush won. It showed he won if you count this war or that, but it showed he lost if you count the entire state according to what were legal votes by state law. Gore got the majority of the votes state wide. He actually won the election.

The election was won under the laws of the State of Florida. A recount months later by another group does and did not count under those laws.

Gore did not want the entire state recounted again at that time. Why?

 

[Moonbeam]

And furthermore, It looks for all the world, since the US is the nation of God, that he's really pissed the Supreme Coup selected the looser. It's payback time.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Bluga
I know that war is coming.

I know that American (and British and Spanish) soldiers will fight in a land they do not know much about, and they will tragically die for reasons they surely don't understand.

I know that counterattacks are going to happen on this country's soil. People will die, and for reasons that have not been justifiably explained to myself and the billions around the world who agree with me.

I know this war is sick and unjust.

I know until there is irrefutable truth that proves otherwise, i will hold firm to my belief, wish upon stars that my friends living in New York, London, San Francisco, Chicago, Los Angeles and other susceptible places around the world will survive an unavoidable dangerous situation brought about by people who stole the election.

But I thought Saddam doesn't have any Weapons of Mass Destruction. So that means we're safe, right?

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
And furthermore, It looks for all the world, since the US is the nation of God, that he's really pissed the Supreme Coup selected the looser. It's payback time.

If you want to play that game Moonie, and for the record I think it's a very stupid game to play, then Allah will be on the side of the Iraqis and they will win the war, right?

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: rgwalt

Originally posted by: Jimbo
Read This Bluga

A very good read. Excellent information and a very compelling reason to go to war.

Ryan

Based on Iraqi government figures, UNICEF estimates that containment kills roughly 5,000 Iraqi babies (children under 5 years of age) every month, or 60,000 per year. Other estimates are lower, but by any reasonable estimate containment kills about as many people every year as the Gulf War -- and almost all the victims of containment are civilian, and two-thirds are children under 5.

Each year of containment is a new Gulf War.

Saddam Hussein is 65; containing him for another 10 years condemns at least another 360,000 Iraqis to death. Of these, 240,000 will be children under 5.

Those are the low-end estimates. Believe UNICEF and 10 more years kills 600,000 Iraqi babies and altogether almost 1 million Iraqis.

Bluga doesn't care. This war is sick and unjust, which means the alternative is so much happier for everybody.

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: Morph
Well said Bluga. Some of us tend to forget that George W. Bush was NOT elected by a majority of people in this country. AS far as I'm concerned, he got in on a technicality.

In regards to that article that everyone is so impressed with. It is correct about one thing at least... sanctions don't work. They do not punish the governement, only the people. And it's us who have been imposing those sanctions, so we have to share the resposibility at least partly for any suffering they cause. The point is, sanctions don't work, you need to find better ways to persuade governments to clean up their acts. It's still not a good excuse to wage war, in my opinion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

That technicality (the Electoral Vote) got us the rest of our Presidents as well. Read what I wrote as a response to your fellow dipsh1t a few posts up.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It's always nice to see there's still folks around who actually thing the recount of florida showed Bush won. It showed he won if you count this war or that, but it showed he lost if you count the entire state according to what were legal votes by state law. Gore got the majority of the votes state wide. He actually won the election.

I think Moonbeam and Bluga are butt buddies.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
not doing right because of fear of some vague retaliation that may or may not happen is a pretty awful thing to do, imho

That's basically cowardice...

 

[Moonbeam]

etech, can't read Gore's mind. I know there was a concern for time. I imagine I think my 'game' is alot stupider than even you do. But again, I can't read minds. My comment was aimed at a different kind (less rational) of fundamentalist than you.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Fencer128

Originally posted by: Pocatello
The terrorists have declared war on the US long before Iraq. They bombed the US marines and embassy in Lebanon, we did nothing. They bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, we did nothing, they bombed the US airforce barrack in Saudi Arabia, we did nothing, they bombed our embassy Africa, we did nothing, they bombed the USS Cole, we did nothing, they used our civilian aircrafts loaded with passengers to destroy the World Trade Center. It is war, and we didn't start the fire. Whether we attack Iraq now or never, the terrorists have already planned their next move, hopefully we can catch them, and preemptively kill them first.

IMHO its interesting that in all the terrorist situations I can think of around the world - the only real progress that has ever been made has been through negotiation. Do you think that the Chetchen problem will be sorted through another war - will that stop Chetchen terrorists? What about the "eye for an eye" mentality between Isreal and Palestine - will the ongoing war their resolve the conflict? What about N. Ireland - or Spain? Are these terrorist threats being resolved through a crackdown?

I can't see any way forward against terrorism (not to be confused with the completely different Iraq issue) through the current policy of the US government. Hard though it is - you have to understand why the terrorism is occuring, where they're drawing their support from and why so many are willing to die for these terrorist aims, to start to handle the situation in a feasable manner.

Address the issue of US - Isreal policy making, put real pressure on that government to seriously tackle a negotiated settlement.
Practice fair trade, not just free trade to countries other than yourselves.

If just these 2 issues could be seriously tackled by the current US administration it would do more to undermine the grip the zealot terrorists have on the hearts and minds of their followers than any amount of bombing will do. That would be a real start to a long term solution.

I can only see history making the arguement "A war will not stop terrorist threats - if anything it will inflame and entrench them".

Andy

But you are omitting two of the three reasons stated by Al Qaeda for their jihad on America. The three reasons were:

US support of Israel
The tough US stance on Iraqi sanctions
US military presence in Saudi Arabia

The last two you have conveniently omitted. Not surprisingly they both center around the man and his regime that this upcoming war is all about. Assuming we could influence Israel to once again consider peace talks with the Palestinians, you still have two reasons unaddressed.

So, we side with the French and Russians, who are all too ready to lift sanctions for obvious reasons, and pressure the UN into lifting sanctions. Score one for the terrorists and Saddam gets a boost and a bonus for his murderous regime. The UN gets a blackeye and shows the world it's policies are irrelevant when confronted with terrorist demands.

We remove our troops from Saudi Arabia, even though they are there under the good graces of the Saudi government. Score two for the terrorists. Saddam feels the boot of the US lifting off of his neck and is free once again to pursue his domination of the region. Once again he sees the ghost of Saladin and feels encouraged. The US shows that knuckling under to terrorist demands buys them short-lived security until the next set of terrorist demands show up in the way of more dead US civilians.

Yeah, that sounds like good policy to defeat terrorism and establish stability in the Mideast. I can't wait to hear who will be the next group of nuts to make demands.

By negotiating with terrorists you just need to meet them halfway, correct? Not correct. You only validate their existance; their lop-sided reasoning. The only way to deal with terrorists is to pursue them and kill them; as many as possible and for as long as it takes. That is what history teaches.

I'm not excited at all about this upcoming war, I cannot stress enough how I wish it were avoidable, but if you want to change American presence in the Mideast, we need to change one of the primary reasons that we happen to be there. That reason is Saddam in the aftermath of the Gulf War. Either change that, or we walk away; and the dictators of the world, and the terrorists of the world will take great comfort in knowing that if they only persist enough and gamble enough, they can most assuredly win.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Fencer128

Originally posted by: Pocatello
The terrorists have declared war on the US long before Iraq. They bombed the US marines and embassy in Lebanon, we did nothing. They bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, we did nothing, they bombed the US airforce barrack in Saudi Arabia, we did nothing, they bombed our embassy Africa, we did nothing, they bombed the USS Cole, we did nothing, they used our civilian aircrafts loaded with passengers to destroy the World Trade Center. It is war, and we didn't start the fire. Whether we attack Iraq now or never, the terrorists have already planned their next move, hopefully we can catch them, and preemptively kill them first.

IMHO its interesting that in all the terrorist situations I can think of around the world - the only real progress that has ever been made has been through negotiation. Do you think that the Chetchen problem will be sorted through another war - will that stop Chetchen terrorists? What about the "eye for an eye" mentality between Isreal and Palestine - will the ongoing war their resolve the conflict? What about N. Ireland - or Spain? Are these terrorist threats being resolved through a crackdown?

I can't see any way forward against terrorism (not to be confused with the completely different Iraq issue) through the current policy of the US government. Hard though it is - you have to understand why the terrorism is occuring, where they're drawing their support from and why so many are willing to die for these terrorist aims, to start to handle the situation in a feasable manner.

Address the issue of US - Isreal policy making, put real pressure on that government to seriously tackle a negotiated settlement.
Practice fair trade, not just free trade to countries other than yourselves.

If just these 2 issues could be seriously tackled by the current US administration it would do more to undermine the grip the zealot terrorists have on the hearts and minds of their followers than any amount of bombing will do. That would be a real start to a long term solution.

I can only see history making the arguement "A war will not stop terrorist threats - if anything it will inflame and entrench them".

Andy

But you are omitting two of the three reasons stated by Al Qaeda for their jihad on America. The three reasons were:

US support of Israel
The tough US stance on Iraqi sanctions
US military presence in Saudi Arabia

The last two you have conveniently omitted. Not surprisingly they both center around the man and his regime that this upcoming war is all about. Assuming we could influence Israel to once again consider peace talks with the Palestinians, you still have two reasons unaddressed.

So, we side with the French and Russians, who are all too ready to lift sanctions for obvious reasons, and pressure the UN into lifting sanctions. Score one for the terrorists and Saddam gets a boost and a bonus for his murderous regime. The UN gets a blackeye and shows the world it's policies are irrelevant when confronted with terrorist demands.

We remove our troops from Saudi Arabia, even though they are there under the good graces of the Saudi government. Score two for the terrorists. Saddam feets the boot of the US lifting off of his neck and is free once again to pursue his domination of the region. Once again he sees the ghost of Saladin and feels encouraged. The US shows that knuckling under to terrorist demands buys them short-lived security until the next set of terrorist demands show up in the way of more dead US civilians.

Yeah, that sounds like good policy to defeat terrorism and establish stability in the Mideast. I can't wait to hear who will be the next group of nuts to make demands.

By negotiating with terrorists you just need to meet them halfway, correct? Not correct. You only validate their existance; their lop-sided reasoning. The only way to deal with terrorists is to pursue them and kill them; as many as possible and for as long as it takes. That is what history teaches.

I'm not excited at all about this upcoming war, I cannot stress enough how I wish it were avoidable, but if you want to change American presence in the Mideast, we need to change one of the primary reasons that we happen to be there. That reason is Saddam in the aftermath of the Gulf War. Either change that, or we walk away; and the dictators of the world, and the terrorists of the world will take great comfort in knowing that if they only persist enough and gamble enough, they can most assuredly win.

This post is getting massive!

I feel you have not understood my post completely. First off, the list you mention is specific to Al-Qaeda. The list I mention is not specific to a terrorist group - its meant to appeal to those who join such groups. Without the things mentioned on my list it would be that much harder for terrorist groups to recruit futrue terrorists in the first place. Of course, you will never find a common ground with the real zealots who run Al-Qaeda, but you may be able to influence those who sign up to die for them. The points on my list would have a real chance of reducing the anti-american feelings that drive such recruitment, especially in the middle-east.

Secondly, I don't necessarily believe you should meet "half-way" with everyone. But, (and as I've already stated) IMHO a purely military approach - as what seems to be on the table at the moment - is more of a "feel good" device than one designed to increase homeland security. I cannot think of a terrorist conflict that has been resolved through force. I do not see the same history lessons as you!

Thanks for the debate,

Andy

 

[FuzzyBee]

How about if we just do nothing. Then everything will be ok. Everyone will love us. Terrorists will think to themselves "That United States is one swell country! Let's stopping hating them!" Saddam will stop oppressing his people, and free thought will be easily expressed in Iraq. Maybe even Sharon and Arafat will take a time out to grow a daisy garden together.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: fuzzy bee
How about if we just do nothing. Then everything will be ok. Everyone will love us. Terrorists will think to themselves "That United States is one swell country! Let's stopping hating them!" Saddam will stop oppressing his people, and free thought will be easily expressed in Iraq. Maybe even Sharon and Arafat will take a time out to grow a daisy garden together.

That's a bit sarcastic! Maybe you feel better for a little rant. Maybe if you didn't see every alternative to military action (as outlined in my posts above) as nothing - this arguement could go somewhere.

Andy

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: Fencer128

Originally posted by: fuzzy bee
How about if we just do nothing. Then everything will be ok. Everyone will love us. Terrorists will think to themselves "That United States is one swell country! Let's stopping hating them!" Saddam will stop oppressing his people, and free thought will be easily expressed in Iraq. Maybe even Sharon and Arafat will take a time out to grow a daisy garden together.

That's a bit sarcastic! Maybe you feel better for a little rant.

I do. It takes a good sarcastic rant to get me started on Monday morning.

 

[tcsenter]

I know that American (and British and Spanish) soldiers will fight in a land they do not know much about, and they will tragically die for reasons they surely don't understand.

Are you saying there are people in the military who are as misinformed as you? Oh, well, I suspect there could be, lots of misinformed people everywhere, including the military. But to most thinking people with an intact cerebral cortex, the reasons are pretty darned clear. Whether or not you believe that they are sufficient to wage war is not a matter of understanding.

I know that counterattacks are going to happen on this country's soil. People will die, and for reasons that have not been justifiably explained to myself and the billions around the world who agree with me.

Yeah, counterattacks. For which 'unjust war' was the 1993 WTC bombing a 'counterattack'? For which 'unjust war' was the Kobar Towers a 'counterattack'? For which 'unjust war' was the USS Cole bombing a 'counterattack'. For which 'unjust war' was 9/11 a 'counterattack'? For which 'unjust war' have Islamic extremists been in this country for many months or years planning 'counterattacks'?

I know until there is irrefutable truth that proves otherwise, i will hold firm to my belief, wish upon stars that my friends living in New York, London, San Francisco, Chicago, Los Angeles and other susceptible places around the world will survive an unavoidable dangerous situation brought about by people who stole the election.

Ah, now I understand. Ok, this wasn't about all that other stuff, its about your bitterness that Bush won Florida.

Nevermind.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Bluga
I know that war is coming.

I know that American (and British and Spanish) soldiers will fight in a land they do not know much about, and they will tragically die for reasons they surely don't understand.

I know that counterattacks are going to happen on this country's soil. People will die, and for reasons that have not been justifiably explained to myself and the billions around the world who agree with me.

I know this war is sick and unjust.

I know until there is irrefutable truth that proves otherwise, i will hold firm to my belief, wish upon stars that my friends living in New York, London, San Francisco, Chicago, Los Angeles and other susceptible places around the world will survive an unavoidable dangerous situation brought about by people who stole the election.

3 words for you..

God Bless America

or 5, take your pick
Gore lost, get over it.

I would rather go ahead and exterminate the little vermin before they infected the US more than they have and live in constant fear or everything our forefathers died for come crumbling down....but that's just me.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Simply put, negotiation (in this case) does not work. We have given negotiation ten years to work, and it hasn't. Why should we wait ten more years to negotiate? Heck, technically, the Gulf War isn't even over - Saddam doesn't abide by any of the rules of the end of the war, nor does he acknowledge his country's loss. How are you supposed to negotiate with this man?

The United Nations is a farce anymore, imho. It exists to give countries "face time" to othere countries' media groups. It has no teeth, because of the backroom deals that are made between it's member nations.

Are you saying that capitulation is the only way to deal with terrorists? What reason would they have to stop if Israel ceased to exist? Then they'd say that Egypt was also part of their holy land, and any foreign supporters of "non-believer" regimes (U.S.) would be fair game.

I'm tired of being the world's whipping boys. We give tons of support to countries around the globe that hate us. If we give them money, they hate us. If we stop giving them money, they hate us.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It's always nice to see there's still folks around who actually thing the recount of florida showed Bush won. It showed he won if you count this war or that, but it showed he lost if you count the entire state according to what were legal votes by state law. Gore got the majority of the votes state wide. He actually won the election.

No, he didn't. I've read several accounts of various types of recounts and all but one showed Bush as the victor in Florida. And the one that showed Gore as winning was suspect in its counting methods (Sorry...no links for those stories but it's just articles that I've read over the last couple of years)

And, btw, STFU already, it's over and done with and no amount of your b!tching and whining will change what was done legally and rightfully.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Gore lost, get over it.

True, true. Besides, where were all the "recount-meisters" when the New Mexico (iirc) votes were screwed up? None of 'em want a recount there, because they knoe that the state would've flipped to Bush.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Fencer128


This post is getting massive!

I feel you have not understood my post completely. First off, the list you mention is specific to Al-Qaeda. The list I mention is not specific to a terrorist group - its meant to appeal to those who join such groups. Without the things mentioned on my list it would be that much harder for terrorist groups to recruit futrue terrorists in the first place. Of course, you will never find a common ground with the real zealots who run Al-Qaeda, but you may be able to influence those who sign up to die for them. The points on my list would have a real chance of reducing the anti-american feelings that drive such recruitment, especially in the middle-east.

Secondly, I don't necessarily believe you should meet "half-way" with everyone. But, (and as I've already stated) IMHO a purely military approach - as what seems to be on the table at the moment - is more of a "feel good" device than one designed to increase homeland security. I cannot think of a terrorist conflict that has been resolved through force. I do not see the same history lessons as you!

Thanks for the debate,

Andy

Well, you only mentioned two points, one of which I discount out of hand. That being practicing fair trade. I cannot seem to recall any terrorists having that on their agenda but I could very well be mistaken.

And lets get down to brass tacks. We're not using terrorists in the generic term here, all of this business focuses around Al Qaeda. Sure there are other groups around the world but the one we're concerned with, the one that is the immediate threat, and that has shown themselves to be organized and capable enough to threaten the US is Al Qaeda.

And I'm sure you realize that regardless of what we do, there will always be those who are disillusioned enough to be influenced into joining terrorist organizations. Face it, the US is the only superpower now on the world stage and is the single big bull's eye for terrorist causes. There are no longer any countries whose presence in world politics is enough to deflect the attention now given to the US. Terrorist organizations need a cause to rally behind and we are the default target now. In the past several decades we always had the Soviets and the conflicts centered around the Cold War to deflect attention, but now no longer. We are now on the stage alone and can expect to take the majority of hits, regardless of what we do.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: fuzzy bee
Simply put, negotiation (in this case) does not work. We have given negotiation ten years to work, and it hasn't. Why should we wait ten more years to negotiate? Heck, technically, the Gulf War isn't even over - Saddam doesn't abide by any of the rules of the end of the war, nor does he acknowledge his country's loss. How are you supposed to negotiate with this man?

The United Nations is a farce anymore, imho. It exists to give countries "face time" to othere countries' media groups. It has no teeth, because of the backroom deals that are made between it's member nations.

Are you saying that capitulation is the only way to deal with terrorists? What reason would they have to stop if Israel ceased to exist? Then they'd say that Egypt was also part of their holy land, and any foreign supporters of "non-believer" regimes (U.S.) would be fair game.

I'm tired of being the world's whipping boys. We give tons of support to countries around the globe that hate us. If we give them money, they hate us. If we stop giving them money, they hate us.

*sigh* "negotiation does not work" I guess you're referring to Saddam and Iraq (whereas I was talking about terrorists threatening the US right now). That is a seperate issue that I would be more than happy to debate with you (as you are right in that instance) but not in the middle of this one.

By "capitualtion" do you mean completely agree to whatever demands are presented? If so, then this obviously is not the way to go. If you mean talk to them and be prepared to be flexible - then yes, that is what I mean. I can't see how Isreal would ever "cease to exist" nowadays - which is precisely why they MUST find a negotitated solution (the news is good enough evidence to me that the military option doesn't work). Since Isreal IS the biggest issue for most Islamic terrorist groups (and sensible people everywhere) then it is imperative that the US get involved in putting pressure on the Isreali's to get some serious negotiating going. Not only for the Isrealis's - but for the US also!!!

As I've said previously - you will never convince the real zealots that the US isn't Satan - but most of the people doing the fighting/dying are merely indoctrinated. If the wider issues are addressed they will be less likely to sign up as "terrorists in the first place".

IMHO this is a long term solution.

Andy

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: fuzzy bee
How about if we just do nothing. Then everything will be ok. Everyone will love us. Terrorists will think to themselves "That United States is one swell country! Let's stopping hating them!" Saddam will stop oppressing his people, and free thought will be easily expressed in Iraq. Maybe even Sharon and Arafat will take a time out to grow a daisy garden together.

you mean the French/ostrich approach sort of like the overall general response to Nazi Germany?

 

[Drekce]

Originally posted by: Morph
Well said Bluga. Some of us tend to forget that George W. Bush was NOT elected by a majority of people in this country. AS far as I'm concerned, he got in on a technicality.

In regards to that article that everyone is so impressed with. It is correct about one thing at least... sanctions don't work. They do not punish the governement, only the people. And it's us who have been imposing those sanctions, so we have to share the resposibility at least partly for any suffering they cause. The point is, sanctions don't work, you need to find better ways to persuade governments to clean up their acts. It's still not a good excuse to wage war, in my opinion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

A technicality? The United States of America has elected its presidents using the electoral college since 1789 when George Washington was made our first commander in chief. For over 200 years we have used this system and it has allowed us to become the best country in the world. George W. Bush is OUR president and he deserves respect for holding the most difficult job on the planet. He is the leader of the free world, and above all he wants it to remain free. This war is not about oil, not about finishing up what his father started, it is about protecting the freedoms that have been passed down to us for the past 227 years.

 

[Fencer128]

Well, you only mentioned two points, one of which I discount out of hand. That being practicing fair trade. I cannot seem to recall any terrorists having that on their agenda but I could very well be mistaken.

As I said already - I'm not talking about changing the minds of the people in charge of the terrorist organisations (as they are firmly set in their views) - I'm talking about infleuncing the hearts and minds of those who sign up to fight for them. IMHO most of the people in these groups are not 100% behind their aims - they are there because they hate America for many reasons - and 2 of the biggest I have outlined above. If the US were to get serious about this the supply of terrorist recruits would dwindle.

And lets get down to brass tacks. We're not using terrorists in the generic term here, all of this business focuses around Al Qaeda. Sure there are other groups around the world but the one we're concerned with, the one that is the immediate threat, and that has shown themselves to be organized and capable enough to threaten the US is Al Qaeda.

The if that's the case deal with them. If you can find them. Because they don't have a country - they don't have a uniform and most of them sure aren't in Iraq. So far Pakistan has been a good hunting ground. If you're getting serious on Al Qaeda and the immediate threat they pose - go there and round them up.

And I'm sure you realize that regardless of what we do, there will always be those who are disillusioned enough to be influenced into joining terrorist organizations. Face it, the US is the only superpower now on the world stage and is the single big bull's eye for terrorist causes. There are no longer any countries whose presence in world politics is enough to deflect the attention now given to the US. Terrorist organizations need a cause to rally behind and we are the default target now. In the past several decades we always had the Soviets and the conflicts centered around the Cold War to deflect attention, but now no longer. We are now on the stage alone and can expect to take the majority of hits, regardless of what we do.

Yes - there will always be terrorists - and the US will be a target. But, you can make it a much smaller target by paracticing the right policies. People are quick to dismiss the "if you attack you will generate more terrorists arguement" - but from what I've seen that's exactly the case. They say that leaves no solution - well, I say there are plenty of solutions based on intelligent foreign policy.

Andy

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: Fencer128
*sigh* "negotiation does not work" I guess you're referring to Saddam and Iraq (whereas I was talking about terrorists threatening the US right now). That is a seperate issue that I would be more than happy to debate with you (as you are right in that instance) but not in the middle of this one.

You'll have to pardon me - I was referring to the original vein of this thread.

By "capitualtion" do you mean completely agree to whatever demands are presented? If so, then this obviously is not the way to go. If you mean talk to them and be prepared to be flexible - then yes, that is what I mean. I can't see how Isreal would ever "cease to exist" nowadays - which is precisely why they MUST find a negotitated solution (the news is good enough evidence to me that the military option doesn't work). Since Isreal IS the biggest issue for most Islamic terrorist groups (and sensible people everywhere) then it is imperative that the US get involved in putting pressure on the Isreali's to get some serious negotiating going. Not only for the Isrealis's - but for the US also!!!

I think that the only thing that will make Arafat happy is for Israel to cease to exist. Why is there not any pressure being put on Palestine to negotiate? If Arafat were true in his alleged intentions, *he* would be hunting down his country's suicide bomber factions, and he'd be dealing with them himself.

As I've said previously - you will never convince the real zealots that the US isn't Satan - but most of the people doing the fighting/dying are merely indoctrinated. If the wider issues are addressed they will be less likely to sign up as "terrorists in the first place".

How are we expected to talk directly to the indoctrinated? We are the great evil. They wouldn't believe us if we told them that the sky was blue.

IMHO this is a long term solution.

I think the only long-term solution is to just annihilate the whole region, but, obviously, that's not going to happen.