It should be legal to shoot-to-kill for property theft

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ub4me

Senior member
Sep 18, 2000
460
0
0
Originally posted by: beer
Originally posted by: judasmachine
death is hardly a penalty for petty theft. do you actually value stuff more than human life? they have a name for that and it's greed, remember it's a deadly sin to boot.

Yes, I value my material property more than a lowlife that attempts to steal it. There is no legitimate reason to be breaking into cars to steal stereos. If that is your method of procuring funds, then yes, I value my property, I value my head unit and my TI calculator and my $35 textbook that was imported from India more than their life. And I should be able to exercise that will freely.

You're a BS :|
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: Hammer
some of you idiots can't read. the relevant statutes have been posted already. let me explain in small words for the intellectually challenged on this board: first of all, $10 isn't enough value to make it a felony. second, $10 left on the street isn't someone's car or home, its public property. and lastly, i don't think someone's kid picking up $10 for the street would be classified by a reasonable person as requiring the use of deadly force.
Kind of makes you wonder: Which group of people actually possesses reasoning skills, and which does not?

Nothing is black and white in the law - even murder. That's why we have various classifications of homicide, with everything down from first-degree (premeditation) to involuntary manslaughter. Trying to argue as if the law is black and white just makes you look like an idiot. Every case of property and protection thereof is different. You simply don't shoot without making a positive ID of the thief, and you'd also like to give some warning.

"What if I just wanted to make sure my neighbour was ok, and I was dressed all in black, wearing sneakers, and I was carrying a large knife because I went directly from the kitchen where I was making sushi." Well, if you're THAT stupid you'd probably not survive long on your own anyways...
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
43
91
Question for those who feel they should be allowed to shoot looters. Let's say your brother/sister/father etc... had a drug problem that they had trouble kicking. If they decided to steal a car stereo to fuel their addiction and someone blew their head off would you say your loved one deserved it?
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Hammer
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Hammer
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: beer
Originally posted by: SuperTool
You are basing that on numbers you pull out of where?
California EE's are more likely to find a job than Texas EE's.

What the fscsk did this thread turn into? You think we have an inherent lack of skill, because we're from Texas. That's bullsh!t and you just talking crap out of your ass. Silicon Valley EEs may get paid more, but there is a higher cost of living, and I don't think finding employment is hard for ANYONE where I go to school with! This should not be a pissing contest and should focus on the topic at hand.

Hey, you are the one who brought up EE's. Guess what I may move to Texas and keep my CA salary. Then you'll be my b!tch. :D
Stanford and Cal people aren't exactly suffering either. I don't have anything against UT Austin. But Austin is more like Silicon Valley than it is like the rest of Texas. Take out Silicon Valley companies and their money and see how many EE's Austin employs.

i hope you do come to texas... and try to break into my car. :D

Or I could just park my car next to yours in a parking lot, and then when you go up to your car, I can shoot you. Then as you are dying, I will take your hand and put your fingerprints on my door handle, and claim you were trying to break into my car. Then I could just buy your car at an estate or bank auction. :) Would you be happy with devaluing human life that low?


no one would believe i was trying to steal your 10 year old minivan. :laugh:

Why the hell not? It would be a step up from your 20 year old Yugo :D
 

erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
9,739
0
0
Originally posted by: judasmachine
death is hardly a penalty for petty theft. do you actually value stuff more than human life? they have a name for that and it's greed, remember it's a deadly sin to boot.

and if people knew they could be shot while stealing your car stereo i have a feeling they'd be less likely to try. however as it stands now you can wound them and they can sue you for everything they have which is crap. apologists like yourself are the reason this country has gone into the crapper.
 

Hammer

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
13,217
1
81
Originally posted by: fisher
Originally posted by: judasmachine
death is hardly a penalty for petty theft. do you actually value stuff more than human life? they have a name for that and it's greed, remember it's a deadly sin to boot.

and if people knew they could be shot while stealing your car stereo i have a feeling they'd be less likely to try. however as it stands now you can wound them and they can sue you for everything they have which is crap. apologists like yourself are the reason this country has gone into the crapper.

actually, judasmachine is right. death is not the right penalty for petty theft. petty theft is a misdemeanor. it has to be a felony for it to be justifiable homicide. of course, if he had bothered to read the thread he might have known that.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
Originally posted by: Locut0s
Question for those who feel they should be allowed to shoot looters. Let's say your brother/sister/father etc... had a drug problem that they had trouble kicking. If they decided to steal a car stereo to fuel their addiction and someone blew their head off would you say your loved one deserved it?

Yes.
 

erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
9,739
0
0
here's an idea. DON'T STEAL OTHER PEOPLE'S STUFF!!!

people have become so sympathetic and apologistic for criminals in this country it's sick. why do you think people have no fear of breaking into your house and killing you? if you fight back, some pathetic attourney will not only get them off, they'll get THE PERSON BREAKING INTO YOUR HOUSE everything you have or will have. do you really think this only applies to home invasion? no, it applies to everything, including stealing car stereos. today it's a car stereo, tomorrow a liquor store.

to locut0s, my brothers are all adults. if they make the decision to turn to a life of crime to support a bad habit then they make that decision as an adult. it would scar me for life to lose any of them, but i would certainly not fault a person protecting themselves for doing so, no matter how much i might hate them for taking a loved one away from me.

it's time for people in this world to start taking responsibility for their own actions again, and if it means you get shot while breaking into someone's car, you should have known it was possible and no one is at fault but you.
 

CrazyShiz

Member
Aug 27, 2002
191
0
0
Ok, so I try to break into your car, which gives you justification to shoot me.

What if I steal your bike? Will you shoot me for that?

Or what about your hat?


The problem with using deadly force for defending something other than human life, is that what you value as important enough to kill for someone else might not, and it goes the other way around aswell. The one thing that the majority of people can agree on that is worth enough to use deadly force, is another life.

If your willing to kill for your car, you cannot fault someone for being willing to kill for their baseball cap (or anything else), because who are you to say how much that cap means to that person (and if you think all things are equal justification for death, well then we've got another issue).

btw, I am not against using some sort of force in order to defend property, but you can't come back from deadly force...
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,517
223
106
btw, I am not against using some sort of force in order to defend property, but you can't come back from deadly force...
If I point a gun at you, I have just used deadly force..even if I do not pull the trigger. The use of deadly force does not always result in injury.

If you're breaking into my car in my driveway, and you look up into a 12ga shotgun, I would think you'd be running, no? It'd be downright stupid to try and fight back..all the anti-force people seem to think that we'll come right out guns blazing, no questions..c'mon, we're not cavemen.
 

CrazyShiz

Member
Aug 27, 2002
191
0
0
That's a good point. Just because you pull a gun doesn't nessesarily mean you'll use it. The possibility of escalation is still increased. Your betting on the person seeing your gun and getting so scared that they give up, yet the # of gun battles (notice I didn't say gun crimes) seems to suggest that there is a great possibility of you losing your bet.


And who decides where the line is drawn? Who determines whether that particular piece of property is worthy enough of taking the chance of possible death? I have the feeling (and if I'm wrong, tell me) that you want to say it should be up to the individual. That's fair, who better to determine the worth of something than that person, but worth is very subjective. A lot more subjective than determining which lives are worth more than others (because example:a pedophilic priest is definently not worth the same as a non-pedophilic priest).
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,517
223
106
Your betting on the person seeing your gun and getting so scared that they give up, yet the # of gun battles (notice I didn't say gun crimes) seems to suggest that there is a great possibility of you losing your bet.

And they're betting that they can draw and shoot (accurately) faster than it would take for one with a ready firearm to pull the trigger on a sighted target? The odds are definitely poor on their end. :)

http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=253
Working out the benefits of gun use is even more complicated. Opinions differ widely on how many crimes are prevented each year by the "defensive" use of guns. Official government figures suggest about 80,000, but most criminologists give much higher estimates, ranging from 764,000 to 3.6 million defensive uses a year, which include circumstances where the gun is merely displayed without discharging or even just referred to. Multiplying these figures by the average costs of crime produces a range of estimates about how much money is saved by defensive gun use. The NCPA then added in another amount based on the number of criminals killed by civilians, taking into account the crimes that criminal would no longer commit over the next 10 years. Based on these assumptions, the NCPA calculated the net annual benefit to society from defensive gun use to be somewhere between 90 million and 39 billion (!) dollars.
It happens more often than one might think.
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
Here's a quick example for you.
A neighbor called and said someone was messing with my brothers car(4:00 AM) one morning. I went out in a hurry (underwear...no shoes) to see what the deal was. There was in fact an individual in the car breaking the column after throwing a brick through the window and removing the inside light. I grabbed him by the neck and slammed him into the steering wheel and to hold not to move(dialogue omitted for obvious reason). He had a partner down the street in another stolen car who whipped aroound and drove straight at me. Obviously the cars don't mean anythng to them , so he would most certainly have hit me if he could have. When the police arrived they get genuinely pissed that I hadn't brought the shotgun out and dispatched with them on the spot. I learned from that to take the gun and shoot first. I would do so without hesitation. These people cost us all a tremendous amount of money every year through entirely to many sources. Court expenses , incarceration costs , insurance rates...etc. I believe you all should own a gun and immediately shoot any one stealing propertty in your neighborhood whether it is your property or not. Do not hesitate , do not speak to them. Just pull the trigger and shoot to kill. That is the only thing that will stop it. There are certain types of people who consider the appropriation of other peoples property a way of life and to be acceptable. They obviously aren't going to stop ,or assist in the apprehension of others who do the same , so create a deterent that actually registers with their mentality. Prison is not the answer in the US due to civil laws. It isn't even remotely feared by people who know the system ,and doesn't work. Death is another story. IT WORKS! I work for everything I have. It is mine. If you are willing to risk your life to take it, I'm in S city... St Louis ,MO. I would have no problem, mentally , physically , or emotionally ,assisting you in departing this planet for the good of all. Anyone who has a problem with that mntallity is welcome to pay my insurance and the portion of my taxes this type of person heaps on or budget every year.
 

zip1385

Golden Member
Dec 30, 2004
1,398
0
76
If someone breaks into my supra just knocks out a window and not even take anything they are dead. Trust me. Sh*t like that doesn't deserve to live. There is no reason to damage other people property or steal other people's things. Good thing my 10k origional mile supra is always either A: in the garage or B: me driving in it. So this will never happen, but if someone breaks into my house for any reason you better believe they aren't walking or even crawling out of it.
 

tec699

Banned
Dec 19, 2002
6,440
0
0
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
Here's a quick example for you.
A neighbor called and said someone was messing with my brothers car(4:00 AM) one morning. I went out in a hurry (underwear...no shoes) to see what the deal was. There was in fact an individual in the car breaking the column after throwing a brick through the window and removing the inside light. I grabbed him by the neck and slammed him into the steering wheel and to hold not to move(dialogue omitted for obvious reason). He had a partner down the street in another stolen car who whipped aroound and drove straight at me. Obviously the cars don't mean anythng to them , so he would most certainly have hit me if he could have. When the police arrived they get genuinely pissed that I hadn't brought the shotgun out and dispatched with them on the spot. I learned from that to take the gun and shoot first. I would do so without hesitation. These people cost us all a tremendous amount of money every year through entirely to many sources. Court expenses , incarceration costs , insurance rates...etc. I believe you all should own a gun and immediately shoot any one stealing propertty in your neighborhood whether it is your property or not. Do not hesitate , do not speak to them. Just pull the trigger and shoot to kill. That is the only thing that will stop it. There are certain types of people who consider the appropriation of other peoples property a way of life and to be acceptable. They obviously aren't going to stop ,or assist in the apprehension of others who do the same , so create a deterent that actually registers with their mentality. Prison is not the answer in the US due to civil laws. It isn't even remotely feared by people who know the system ,and doesn't work. Death is another story. IT WORKS! I work for everything I have. It is mine. If you are willing to risk your life to take it, I'm in S city... St Louis ,MO. I would have no problem, mentally , physically , or emotionally ,assisting you in departing this planet for the good of all. Anyone who has a problem with that mntallity is welcome to pay my insurance and the portion of my taxes this type of person heaps on or budget every year.


These people need to be helped, not killed. Maybe a job work fare would be more in the cards. Killing people nilly willy like you suggest will only lead to anarchy.


 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
anarchy? lol! I think not! Killing poeple nilly willy will do just the opposite! It will produce a modern, crime free society where people know better to commit crime. The whole notion of a "punishment" is to deter people from doing the crime!

A job work fare will do absolutely no good for these people. Some low lives are inherently lazy and nothing will stop them from stealing your stuff. Well except a bullet in the head of course.
 

tec699

Banned
Dec 19, 2002
6,440
0
0
Originally posted by: shuan24
anarchy? lol! I think not! Killing poeple nilly willy will do just the opposite! It will produce a modern, crime free society where people know better to commit crime. The whole notion of a "punishment" is to deter people from doing the crime!

A job work fare will do absolutely no good for these people. Some low lives are inherently lazy and nothing will stop them from stealing your stuff. Well except a bullet in the head of course.


Why stop there? Let's cut off hands as well. Have you stolen from the internet? I think most of us have at some point in time so the government should cut off our hands!
 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
sure! I don't see how the government cutting off our hands leads to anarchy....seems to be the opposite if you ask me....
 

amoeba

Diamond Member
Aug 7, 2003
3,162
1
0
Originally posted by: shuan24
anarchy? lol! I think not! Killing poeple nilly willy will do just the opposite! It will produce a modern, crime free society where people know better to commit crime. The whole notion of a "punishment" is to deter people from doing the crime!

A job work fare will do absolutely no good for these people. Some low lives are inherently lazy and nothing will stop them from stealing your stuff. Well except a bullet in the head of course.



Where is your evidence that killing people produces modern crime free societies?

 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,866
1,515
126
Why stop there? Let's cut off hands as well. Have you stolen from the internet? I think most of us have at some point in time so the government should cut off our hands!

I think you might have just proved the OP's point right here...

if people stealing mp3's knew they would get shot or have their hand chopped off and it actually happened when they got caught, do you think they would steal mp3's???

I don't think so....

that's the whole point of deterence...not some pansy a$$ slap on the wrist and go to jail for 2 months for armed robbery or theft...
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,866
1,515
126
Originally posted by: amoeba
Originally posted by: shuan24
anarchy? lol! I think not! Killing poeple nilly willy will do just the opposite! It will produce a modern, crime free society where people know better to commit crime. The whole notion of a "punishment" is to deter people from doing the crime!

A job work fare will do absolutely no good for these people. Some low lives are inherently lazy and nothing will stop them from stealing your stuff. Well except a bullet in the head of course.



Where is your evidence that killing people produces modern crime free societies?

i think his point is that if people know they would be killed if they commit a crime, the crime rate would be less...but if actually killing them is what it takes to make that happen, then so be it...

 

amoeba

Diamond Member
Aug 7, 2003
3,162
1
0
Originally posted by: spacejamz
Originally posted by: amoeba
Originally posted by: shuan24
anarchy? lol! I think not! Killing poeple nilly willy will do just the opposite! It will produce a modern, crime free society where people know better to commit crime. The whole notion of a "punishment" is to deter people from doing the crime!

A job work fare will do absolutely no good for these people. Some low lives are inherently lazy and nothing will stop them from stealing your stuff. Well except a bullet in the head of course.



Where is your evidence that killing people produces modern crime free societies?

i think his point is that if people know they would be killed if they commit a crime, the crime rate would be less...but if actually killing them is what it takes to make that happen, then so be it...



I understand his point. My point is that those willing to do crimes that warrant the death penalty probably do not care about the severity of the punishment in the first place.

Unless if he is suggesting that we give the death penalty to petty thieves.
 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
my evidence comes from the same source as tec699's claim that this type of society will lead to anarchy.

Yes you are correct about your point. That is why the death penalty is considered not verifiable deterrant for capital murders. However, I will argue that the death penalty is a deterrant for theft, petty or not. Obviously the punishment does not fit the crime, but isn't that the whole point of being a deterrant?

Think about this:
If I REALLY hated somebody and wanted to kill him, and I had the balls to go out and buy a gun just for that reason, then yes the death penalty will not sway me. BUT, what if we lived in a society where murder results in the death of not only you, but all of your loved ones as well? You bet I'll think twice about committing such a crime.

Its the whole point of punishment NOT fitting the crime what will act as a deterrant. Sad, but true.
 

Calin

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2001
3,112
0
0
Originally posted by: Mo0o
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: ragazzo
It's your car and your car is insured. Not worth taking a life for that...even if you have $1000 deductible. However, if the thief was going at you with a knife, then by all means protect yourself.

How do you know that he has full coverage?

The thief may end up costing the person $20,000. Are you saying that we shouldn't be able to stop a crime just because some liberals put a high value on the life of people who make a living stealing?

Even if my deductible was $500, I'd still drop him. Thieves have a negative value in society. Not only do they not carry their own weight, they detract from the work of honest people. I'd kill him.

So can i assume you've never downloaded an illegal mp3 or movie? Have you ever sampled a grape at the grocery store?

I disagree about the grape - sometime the seller lets you have for free a small sample so that you might decide easier that you want to buy.