It seems McDonalds customers aren't the only ones who file frivolous lawsuits

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LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I once had a union job, HJ, that to obtain I had to sign an oath I wouldn't strike. The union struck and I went to work. All my friends were furious and rather contemptuous except for the fact that I had gone to the union meeting and publicly announced that I would cross the picket line because of this little matter of an oath. It may have been extortion, but I signed. I was honor bound to abide by my word. Of course I was Proto-Moonbeam even then and when my boss saw me walk in he fell out of his chair. I guess he figured I'd be outside throwing bombs. :D That strike brought a great improvement in benefits and never occurred again, and in time I came to the conclusion that an oath extracted as a condition in not fair. I would, as the person I now am, strike in those same conditions.

There is Iron in your words above. Steel is more flexable but, requires both Iron and Coal. (or something;))
I carried the US mail, was shop steward and very pro worker. I had to cross picket lines of other unions to deliver the mail... "scab" but, the mail must go through. No other thought was in my mind. The mail must go through regardless of anything. That was my oath and I'd do the same today. I think. I was in Grad skule then and being indoctrinated into the "deep theory behind the rights and needs of business" While folks were still dying in Viet Nam... and business and the war machine was profiting hand over fist. I have somewhere ingrained in my mind a notion that "an oath is a means of insuring compliance out of fear" It is meaningless to some and especially the government folks who lie under oath before congress... I refer in part to hearings on Gulf War 1 and the chemicals/Bio etc. I don't know if fear is my motivator. I'd like to think it is honor but, how honorable am I, really. Pretty much so but, not total I'm sure. I have been a student for over geez I can't even remember when I wasn't. Still take a course on something every semester. (I don't have to pay so why not, right) In the early '90's when I could no longer work full time I found interest in the law... so... well.. the law. It is what keeps us free, no? It won't work within a system that weakens the basic concept of jury system. Yes, I agree some law is ill advised, ill written, and ill applied. When I use to be on jury duty (never selected anymore... must be my grey hair :)) I felt I was you and all the other you's in society. I at times felt that others version of "reasonable doubt" or "a proponderence of" were the terms that enabled wiggle room for each juror to vote his good conscience against mine but, I still can't get past the "mine" and I just can't say this law is stupid therefore this or that. Must be the Jesuits have mind controlled me to this point...

Moonster, If you cross the picket line today, I suspect it is because you conclude the greater good occurs from that action versus your own sacrifice of your oath. This is noble. Yes, you have justified it by calling it a control feature but, once having taken it regardless of its purpose it becomes your honor. I think. I would applaud one who sacrifices all for a cause greater then themselves... I am a coward, I suppose and fear the loss of my honor even for the greater good. What would I have left.... could the knowledge of my contribution to the greater good replace my loss... I am afraid to find out, I guess.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I suppose salvation lies in never accepting a job that requires any oath. In that way you can't be tortured between conscience or honor. I don't know of an oath in the Post Office that you are honor bound to cross a picket line. That sounds more like a duty. Not really sure there's a distinction with a difference there. To thine own self be true.

Perhaps one of the greatest challenges in life is drawing the line between ones own sense of truth and that imposed by the society which surrounds. The immoral make their own rules. Is there a higher court? Do we know to which camp we belong. I wish neither to be a judge nor to have power. In either I see nothing but danger. I know the enemy and he is me. I said I would break my oath today, but I never have. The opportunity has not presented itself and now probably never will. I struggle more than anything with the certainty that I am right. To be judge jury and executioner is all too easy for me. This whole dilemma is wrapped up in a Kurosawa film I wish you could see called Red Beard. Maybe you know it?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I suppose salvation lies in never accepting a job that requires any oath. In that way you can't be tortured between conscience or honor. I don't know of an oath in the Post Office that you are honor bound to cross a picket line. That sounds more like a duty. Not really sure there's a distinction with a difference there. To thine own self be true.

Perhaps one of the greatest challenges in life is drawing the line between ones own sense of truth and that imposed by the society which surrounds. The immoral make their own rules. Is there a higher court? Do we know to which camp we belong. I wish neither to be a judge nor to have power. In either I see nothing but danger. I know the enemy and he is me. I said I would break my oath today, but I never have. The opportunity has not presented itself and now probably never will. I struggle more than anything with the certainty that I am right. To be judge jury and executioner is all too easy for me. This whole dilemma is wrapped up in a Kurosawa film I wish you could see called Red Beard. Maybe you know it?

A struggle hidden in an enigma. The Oath I spoke of was the same all government employees take but, including some verbage about protecting the mail etc. At the time the PO was a cabinet dept and not as it is today... perhaps the same oath. The folks who worked as Air controllers struck and were eliminated by Reagan. They did not seem to care about the safety of flight ops... so where is the greater good? I'm not sure I agree with them. My little scenerio has not to do with safety as with failing to do my job. One that I took an oath to do if I preceive it to mean that, is substance over form.
I have found after an evening of thinking about this that what I probably really do is take that path that offers the least resistance for me. I think I figure out what is easier, less risky and makes me feel ok to do. I guess it was the foundation my gramma and the nuns and jesuits set for me that makes issues in life fall into sync very easily. I don't think it has to do with some noble action on my part... it is simply what I am most comfortable doing.
I've not to my knowledge seen a Kurosawa film... I watch and have lots of action, war, and Nicole Kidman flics along with john cleese and the like. I'll look up the one you mentioned and view it. I have to watch a movie about 5 times to really understand the message or determine if one is there at all.;)
RE: Jury duty. I guess, as above, it is much easier for me to follow the path my foundation dictates then to veer into the unknown. Let others brave the mystery and I'll stand on the side and be the critic... shallow but true.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This might be of interest.


Hmmm. DAV got 10 points. Well... I don't even remember the NYC strike so I can't say much about it other than to say it didn't affect me I at the time would have been a "sub" and subject to mgmt. whim for work so if there was a picket I'd have crossed because I had a family to support and that blasted oath that gets in the way. There was also a law about Political activity as I remember... couldn't take part in that stuff either.
At the PO I worked at were 45 carriers and maybe 35 were ex military the rest were old timers. The mgmt was ex carrier and clerk who moved up so they knew the game too. Most were decent. Wish I'd moved into the mgmt end with the PO. The pot of gold was too tempting elsewhere.
I'm never it seems gonna get past the issue of is it me who uses the oath thing to justify action... guess I'll never know... I'm too old to find out I guess.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
did she spill the whole damn cup or what?

Tune in next month for the return to the thread and see if what was spilled is the substance that relates to the cause of action and what the meaning of is is.:)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Well as far as not knowing, I see your situation in reverse. For me abiding by my oath wasn't the self serving way. It made enemies of all my friends who were going out on a limb. Like I said, they were none to happy about and rather brutal to those who snuck in. I got a break in that way, and was told so because they thought it took guts to stand up at the union meeting and announce I couldn't break my word. It wasn't my moral stand on my word that bought me a pass, I know. They didn't give two hoots about that. It was the fact I was the only one who came and publicly bucked them. Going on strike was the path of least resistance there, although there was the matter of getting fired.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court stated in 1789: "The jury has the right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy." Samuel Chase, U. S. Supreme Court Justice and signer of the Declaration of Independence, said in 1796: "The jury has the right to determine both the law and the facts. " U. S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said in 1902: "The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both law and fact." Harlan F. Stone, the 12th Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court, stated in 1941: "The law itself is on trial quite as much as the cause which is to be decided."

In a 1952 decision (Morissette v United States), the U. S. Supreme Court recognized the powers of juries to engage in nullification. The court stated:

"Had the jury convicted on proper instructions it would be the end of the matter. But juries are not bound by what seems inescapable logic to judges....They might have refused to brand Morissette as a thief. Had they done so, that too would have been the end of the matter."

In a 1972 decision (U. S. v Dougherty, 473 F 2nd 1113, 1139), the Court said: "The pages of history shine on instances of the jury's exercise of its prerogative to disregard instructions of the judge."

Likewise, the U. S. Supreme Court in Duncan v Louisiana implicitly endorsed the policies behind nullification when it stated: "If the defendant preferred the common-sense judgment of the jury to the more tutored but less sympathetic reaction of the single judge, he was to have it."
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Well as far as not knowing, I see your situation in reverse. For me abiding by my oath wasn't the self serving way. It made enemies of all my friends who were going out on a limb. Like I said, they were none to happy about and rather brutal to those who snuck in. I got a break in that way, and was told so because they thought it took guts to stand up at the union meeting and announce I couldn't break my word. It wasn't my moral stand on my word that bought me a pass, I know. They didn't give two hoots about that. It was the fact I was the only one who came and publicly bucked them. Going on strike was the path of least resistance there, although there was the matter of getting fired.

Moonbeam,
eachtime I think it through my ego want to say it was this or that... so I'm confused. I'll leave it there because I avent a clue no more..;)
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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I read your post above and wonder why the judge didn't enter a directed verdict if he heard what you say the jury heard.
Different judges do different things.
The plantiff had to proove; injury. The whatever skin issue. I assume she did to the jury's satisfaction.
The plaintiff only need prove injury from a product to bring suit. That is, to show cause for action.

The jury is in fact supposed to determine whether or not the injury resulted from the plaintiff's own negligence, recklessness, misuse, or carelessness. Otherwise, any injury caused by any product would result in an award instantly upon meeting the preposterously low burden of proving the product caused the injury without regard to any actions which set forth the events resulting in injury. I could hit myself in the head with a hammer, and so long as I could prove to the jury's satisfaction that my injury was indeed caused by the defendant's product, and not some other product or injurious force such as a fall, I would automatically prevail. That's absurd.

Statements by jurors after the trial in interviews show that they were, at the outset of the trial, virtually unanimous in their belief that the suit was without merit. After all, the woman spilled the coffee on herself, and that's really all any thinking person needs to know.

It was not until the McDonald's representatives took the stand that the jury was turned in favor of the woman's claim. Why? Jurors said that they found the attitude of McDonald's to be "callous" towards those who were burned by McDonald's coffee when the representative was merely pointing out that the incidence of serious burns from McDonald's coffee was not only extremely rare (one in every 14 million cups served) but due in the vast majority of cases to negligence on the part of the consumer vs. some event like the coffee 'melting' through the bottom of the cup which would suggest a defect in the product.

Rarity of risk is always part of any reasonability test. It is not reasonable to change the design of a car because there is one fatality in one hundred thousand accidents involving that car. It is reasonable to change the design of a car because there is one fatality in ten accidents involving that car.

Rarity of risk, particularly when risk is tied so closely with some kind of contributory negligence on the part of the user, is a perfectly sound standard by which to judge whether the "problem" (undue risk) lay with your product or some extremely small subset of clumbsy/negligent users who are being injured by it. Its a universal standard used to assess the 'safety' of everything in society; vaccines, medications, consumer products, etc, etc. You don't remove peanuts from your product because one in 20 million people who eat it will have a severe allergic reaction, especially if peanuts are part and parcel to the desirability, success, or popularity of your product (as being "hotter" is to McDonald's coffee).

But again, the jury was "moved" not by the factual evidence, but took [emotional] offense to they felt was the "callous" position of McDonald's, without considering, or perhaps even realizing, that dozens if not hundreds of products they liked and used, or needed (medications), would no longer be available if all consumer products were held to the standard which the jury was holding McDonald's. This is how emotion clouds critical judgement and reasoning.

But that is what personal injury is all about, who can emotionally 'sway' the jury. Even many attorneys will boast this is how they win personal injury cases if you catch them with their guard down (drinking at a bar or social function). Jurors have been polled and interviewed after many cases and have essentially admitted on television they didn't believe the defendant did anything wrong but awarded compensation anyway because it was a big wealthy company who could afford to give some money to a plaintiff with whom they sympathized.
Assume for instance that I frequent fast food resturants and buy coffee using 2 gizmos of cream which results in temperature reduction suitable for drinking right down in one fast gulp. I do this all the time. Ok. Now I go to Mcdonald's order coffee insert the 2 gizmos of cream gulp down the hotter than industry standard coffee and go into shock fall bang my head and sustain brain damage..(and become normal some would say) I file suit. Should I prevail?
No, no more than you should prevail because you order a fudge brownie dessert every Friday night at a restaurant for 10 years, go to a different restaurant across town, order their fudge brownie and it contains walnuts, to which you're deathly allergic.

Again, there does not exist any such beast as an "industry standard" coffee temperature no more than there is an "industry standard" patty weight for bacon double cheeseburgers. There is no industry organization defining standards for coffee serving temperatures. It is by nature a matter of personal preference and also varies by the style of coffee or type of ground.

There are certain expectations of competency it is reasonable to place upon the general population. By a certain age, you should have learned about gravity and the wheel. If insecurely you place a bowling ball on the top shelf of your closet and it falls on your head after rolling off the shelf, that isn't the fault of the bowling ball manufacturer, nor the shelf manufacturer. If you jump from your roof and break both of your legs, that isn't the fault of the builder for failing to warn you about gravity.

Coffee is by its very nature a "hot beverage". That is part of the nature of coffee which makes it desirable. The claim of the plaintiff that coffee served in your home is only 120 ~ 130 'F is a utterly absurd. 130'F is barely hatter than a hot bath or shower, which would for the vast majority of regular coffee drinkers be described as only 'warm' if it were the temperature of their coffee.

Our Krups makes a 170'F pot of coffee. Our Sunbeam makes a 160'F pot of coffee. Before the advent and popularity of home coffee makers in the 1970s and 1980s, the only way to make a pot of coffee was to BOIL water at a 'cool' 212'F in a pot or kettle. When instant coffee was a staple of the American home much more so than coffee makers, you boiled a pot or kettle of water and poured it straight in the cup. "Hot" tea and "hot" chocolate are still made this way in many homes and was exclusively before the popular advent of the microwave.

It is a widely held, virtually universal, understanding among all over the age of adolescence that fresh coffee is hot enough to burn and no credible argument could made to suggest otherwise. Coffee isn't a beverage common only to the city or state in which the incident occurred, coffee is popular the world over as is the understanding that coffee is "hot" enough to cause injury.

The dichotomy here isn't that the woman ordered a beverage understood to be 'room temperature', unable to cause serious burns if 'properly' served, but received molten lava in a cup. If there were such a thing as this "industry standard" coffee temperature claimed by the plaintiff, those temperatures are hot enough to cause 2nd degree burns.

The dichotomy is between 2nd degree and 3rd degree burns. The difference over-and-above this 'industry standard' (but still injury causing) temperature, for which McDonald's was said to be negligent, should have in a worst case scenario, produced an award that compensated the plaintiff only for that degree of injury suffered over-and-above what she would have suffered had the coffee been served at this 'non-negligent' industry standard, since implied directly in the plaintiff's argument is that its "ok" for McDonald's to give people 2nd degree burns so long as the coffee which produced it conformed to the 'industry standard'.

Also implied in the plaintiff's argument, and the jury finding her 20% at fault for contributory negligence, is that the woman would have been 100% liable for her injury due to her own negligence, had only McDonald's served their coffee at the 'industry standard'. Except the temperature at which McDonald's served their coffee cannot possibly 'influence' or 'impact' the woman's actions. The woman's total negligence does not change at all from spilling 160'F coffee to spilling 180'F coffee, yet McDonald's liability goes from 0% to 80%? How could that possibly be logical? Its not logical, its emotional.

Fault is not determined by severity of outcome but upon the circumstances, actions, or events which produced the outcome. If she was 100% negligent at 160'F, by any rational standard, she is 100% negligent at 180'F.

The plaintiff's legal argument produces a number of absurd implications and the jury's reasoning a multitude of bizarrities.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I don't know what's right, HJ, only that my opinion has changed with time. I would guess that each case is unique and requires the weighing of the importance to oneself the obligation of oath vs. the injustice honoring it would yield as a manifestation in the world. If all them union guys thought like me, they'd still be working for peanuts and their families and kids wouldn't be doing so good.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know what's right, HJ, only that my opinion has changed with time. I would guess that each case is unique and requires the weighing of the importance to oneself the obligation of oath vs. the injustice honoring it would yield as a manifestation in the world. If all them union guys thought like me, they'd still be working for peanuts and their families and kids wouldn't be doing so good.

Assuming of course subsequent events would not have given rise to the same benefit. Well, I guess the time value of the $ and benefits is the loss. Who knows what one will do till it is time to do it... the more major the move the less I know I think.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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the more major the move the less I know I think.
----------------------------
You strike me as a person who will do his best.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Tcsenter,
Re: your 1:58 post

I'll have to think more about the issues raised in the post. But, at first blush the following jumps out.

There does not appear to be an assumption of risk involved. The subjective standard would have required knowledge of the temperature variance and the purchase of the coffee does not indicate she assumed the unknown risk. So I don't see that defense.

Comparative neglegence, Contributary neglegence or whatever iteration it is at now a days is the argument that seems strongest to me in your thesis to provide a defense for McDonalds. It used to be defined as "Conduct on the part of the plaintiff which falls below the standard of conduct to which he should conform for his own protection, and which is a legaly contributing cause cooperating with the negligence of the defendant in bringing about the plaintiff's harm" This is where I get a headache.

The assumption and the contributary issue is the basic defenses afforded McDonald's IMHO.

The woman somehow evacuated the contents of the cup onto her lap. Was it her negligence that caused it or the tempreature of the coffee. If the former... no problem I agree. If the latter... then I don't see the defense for McDonald's in that, if it was hotter than this mysterious standard that with out specificity found in codification becomes, I assume, the standard of custom. IF she often bought coffee from fast food places and they all served coffee at x degrees and only McD's served it at X plus and plus is significant enough and McD's had not been doing this for a duration such that it was common knowledge about the Xplus temperature I can see a breach on the part of McD. Again IMHO

The damage award should not have been as you suggest, the delta between 2nd and 3rd because the injury was not an incremental one but 3rd degree that but for the spilling no injury would have been had. Again IMHO.

I also don't see plaintiff being negligent to some degree in this case...
So when you see me in voir dire quick like a bunny use one of your challenges unless you are with the plaintiff..:)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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The bottom line is that McDonalds was so confident in the legality of their position and its sacred duty to provide the customer with the coffee they want that they settled out of court for an embarrassingly undisclosed amount and lowered the temperature of their coffee.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The bottom line is that McDonalds was so confident in the legality of their position and its sacred duty to provide the customer with the coffee they want that they settled out of court for an embarrassingly undisclosed amount and lowered the temperature of their coffee.

So then, I can draw the inference that either it was cheaper to settle then litagate in face of a probable jury find based on the law and the facts and which out of caution and to avoid additional suits caused the lowered temperature or they just were advised incorrectly based on a cautious opinion. Hmmm.
I wonder. Maybe I could draw other inferences too... but, I like the above bestest.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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HJ, what does the virtuous corporation care for money. What expense would they not spare to bring their customers the perfect cup, what legal battle would they shirk based on principle. Surely they decided they had no case. :D
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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eh, what it boils down to for me was that she dumped the damn coffee in her lap. she did it to herself. omg, coffee is hot and can burn?!?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
eh, what it boils down to for me was that she dumped the damn coffee in her lap. she did it to herself. omg, coffee is hot and can burn?!?

My cup of McD's coffee temp was 168 f. today. Using my trusty handy dandy probe and digital readout device. Yum. Now that they have lowered the temp to drinkable I drunk it right on down. My coffee here at this confuser is 152 f. But, it is fresh ground starbucks french roast and that tastes better around 150 f.
If I were too 'dump' coffee on me it would be on my foot not my lap.;)
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
HJ, what does the virtuous corporation care for money. What expense would they not spare to bring their customers the perfect cup, what legal battle would they shirk based on principle. Surely they decided they had no case. :D

This is true. Mrs McDonald... Joanie would not let anything push her. Ray never let coffee get that hot. Maybe a conspiracy to take money from the rich and famous... and give to the poor.... like the tax cut.
:D
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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My cup of McD's coffee temp was 168 f. today. Using my trusty handy dandy probe and digital readout device. Yum. Now that they have lowered the temp to drinkable I drunk it right on down.
Hmm, that's funny. As reported in a Newsweek feature article appearing March 20, 1995 entitled "Are Lawyers Burning America?", the temperature of the coffee which burned Liebeck was 170'F by the plaintiff's own estimation. The Newsweek article is hailed by virtually all the trial lawyer sources sympathetic to this rather revolutionary (and certainly profitable) new legal argument as being among the first publications to 'report the facts of the case'.

"Renowned burn expert Dr. Charles Baxter of Southwestern Medical School testified that 170-degree coffee would cause second degree burns within 3.5 seconds of hitting the skin."

"Plaintiffs' expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds."

IOW, the same time interval required to produce full thickness (third degree) burns at 180'F will produce second degree burns at your "safe" 170'F.

Which supports my earlier suggestion that this woman was inordinately if not 'hyper' susceptible to burn injury due to two factors: her age, primarily, and the particularly sensitive area on which she dumped the coffee, the inner thigh and groin, where the skin is relatively thin and more susceptible to burn injury than other areas of the body. The same coffee would likely not have caused this 'unusual' degree of injury on someone else.

Which also supports my earlier suggestion that the non-negligent "industry standard" temperatures claimed to be 'safe' by the plaintiff would still have caused unusual injury to Liebeck - at least second degree burns.

Second degree burns are typically more painful than third degree burns because full thickness burns damage (destroy) the nerve endings while second degree burns leave them intact to 'feel' the full intensity of the burn. Second degree burns on supple or thin areas of the body such as the inner thigh are likely to require split-thickness skin grafts (surgical intervention) to minimize scarring. Split-thickness grafts are more painful at both the donor and recipient sites than full-thickness grafts due to the aforementioned reasons.

So injuries suffered by Liebeck from this "industry standard" coffee temperature may in all likelihood have been even more painful than the 'negligent' coffee temperature and required just as much medical/surgical intervention. Isn't that interesting?
The damage award should not have been as you suggest, the delta between 2nd and 3rd because the injury was not an incremental one but 3rd degree that but for the spilling no injury would have been had. Again IMHO.
Are you agreeing with me here? This statement supports finding the woman 100% negligent by proximate cause of her own injury, not McDonalds.

Implicit in the plaintiff's argument, is the false premise that "industry standard" coffee temperatures are incapable of producing burn injury, thus plaintiff would have suffered no injury at all had McDonald's served coffee at the "industry standard" temperatures. This is completely wrong.

To my knowledge, plaintiff isn't claiming that the 'heat' of the coffee as transmitted through to the exterior of the cup was so hot that it caused her to drop or spill her coffee out of some protective reflex. In such a case, McDonald's certainly has a duty to use a container which adequately protects the exterior of the container from the heat within so people don't burn themselves merely by holding the cup. This is not the plaintiff's claim.

She spilled the coffee entirely due to her own carelessness or negligence.

Third degree is certainly 'incremental', in a manner of speaking. This is why they classify burns to "degree".

But for the spilling (plaintiff's negligence), no injury at all would have occured.

But for the 'added danger' of the coffee's temperature (defendent's negligence), injury would still have occurred, albiet to a lesser degree of severity (or perhaps even a similar degree of burn severity, just a lesser extent of burn area).

When one party, but for their negligence, can completely affect the outcome between injury vs. no injury at all, while the other party, but for their negligence, can only affect severity or extent of injury but not preventing injury altogether, the former party is substantially negligent because only they had the ability to prevent injury.

The latter party, in the worst case scenario, is only liable for that extent of injury suffered beyond what would otherwise have been suffered but for their negligence because the power or ability to prevent injury altogether did not lay with them. You cannot hold either party to impossible standards.

And did I read you correctly in saying that you cannot attribute any negligence at all to Liebeck for spilling coffee on herself?

All I can say to that is...wow. Fascinating.

And did you notice that the plaintiff did not even suffer injury from the temperatures at which they claim are negligent? They cite McDonald's corporate policy as recommending a holding temperature between 180' and 190' F. This they call negligent, except plaintiff was, by their own estimation, injured by coffee that was a full 10'F lower than those temperatures plaintiff offered into evidence. Just one among many absurd facts about this case.

Oh, and I was wrong about there being no industry organization defining standards for coffee brewing or holding, though I was correct in my estimation that, if there were, it wouldn't be for safety reasons:
A restaurant industry newspaper, noting that the plaintiff's lawyer in the McDonald's coffee-spill case had told the jury that home coffee brewers operate at an average temperature of 135-140 degrees Fahrenheit, reported:

[The] executive director of the Specialty Coffee Association of America . . . is called upon frequently in similar cases . . . . [He] says the McDonald's defense erred by not challenging the figures cited for home coffee brewers, which were incorrect. Standards set by the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers require brewing temperatures to fall between 170 degrees and 205 degrees Fahrenheit and holding temperatures to be a minimum of 130 degrees. The coffee industry has even higher standards. . . . They set a minimum water temperature of 195 degrees and a maximum of 205 degrees. To maintain flavor, coffee must be held at 185 degrees to 190 degrees. The temperature drops by as much as 15 degrees when coffee is poured and loses up to 10 degrees when creaming agents are added. . . . "To be pleasing as a hot beverage, coffee, tea or soup must be served in a range between 155 degrees to 175 degrees," he says. "You have to boil soup to break down the fat, and you must boil tea and coffee to extract flavor, but, obviously, you don't serve at boiling temperature."

Mort Hochstein, "Don't get burned: protect yourself against `hot beverage' litigation," Nation's Restaurant News, Apr. 15, 1996.
The 'jist' of the aforementioned article, did not advocate reducing temperatures to 'protect' against hot beverage litigation, but to be knowledgable about what are in fact the 'industry standards' and 'customary temperatures' so that the plaintiff is not allowed to fabricate their own numbers without corrrection or challenge as they did in the Liebeck case.
 

Moonbeam

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When sued always use the best defense you can. When you are an industry which can be sued cooperate in formulating the best defense you can paying particular attention to your vulnerabilities and past failures. Learn from experience how to beat the system. Life is a game and it's a dog eat dog world. Victory goes to the best dissimulator.

Dat der is sarcasm case u didn't know.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
When sued always use the best defense you can. When you are an industry which can be sued cooperate in formulating the best defense you can paying particular attention to your vulnerabilities and past failures. Learn from experience how to beat the system. Life is a game and it's a dog eat dog world. Victory goes to the best dissimulator.

Dat der is sarcasm case u didn't know.


Tcsenter is an advocate... like the dream team of OJ's time or here last year the Feldmen fellow who defended westerfield.. they advocate a side or belief.. BUT we are the jury and finders of fact.. that is our province. Since the jury did not get the case it is easy to say woulda coulda shoulda but the fact remains they were not charged with finding anything. We are, therefore, self empowered to adjucate this hypothetical issue of coffee, people, and the law. I get to be the judge, the appeals court, supreme court, and all the federal courts up to the USSC which will be you Chief Justice Moonbeam and you are all the member justices as well. I also will act as the sole jury of 6. I will not communicate among myself during the evidence presentation and all that rot. OK.. Ok.
Lets begin... Mr. Tcsenter, the defense has rested (they slept at the holiday inn). You may proceed. You will submit? Are you sure? OK. Now then, Jury here is the law. Blah, Blah, Blah and all that. Now begone with you and come back when you agree to find for the defense... you have already..? OK and the award... and my cut... and Moonbeams...ok.. ok... that's it folks... Au Revoir, Abientot, Bon Jour.
 

Syringer

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
19,333
3
71
Wow, why aren't you Elite yet tscenter? You're completely owning everyone in this thread.