It must be PC to hate the US.

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CocaCola5

Golden Member
Jan 5, 2001
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<<
Your #1: I don't know the history of culture and society in the middle east but I'm convinced that at some point they did in fact have a very rich and fourishing culture, but I think that was probably before Islam was introduced. (Hence the flying rugs, genies, lamps, mythology, etc...) So I don't think Islam had anything to do with the "glory days" but if I'm wrong, please let me know. If I'm right, it invalidates that one.
>>





I believe the "glory days" you mention is about the 1400's-1500's(Ottoman Empire), post Islam.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword. -- Jesus [Matthew 10:34]

Context matters, Matthew 10 Jesus is explaining to his disciples how to deliver the gospel to the world . . .

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved . . . But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come . . . And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

All of which directly precedes your one verse . . . which is followed by . . .

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household . . . wonder if that's me?
 

Rivergater

Member
Jan 15, 2002
171
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<<

<< It must be PC to hate the US. >>

I wish people would stop making ignorant blanket comments like this. It's one thing to attempt to stir up patriotism but its quite another to use BS to do it.
Intelligent people will know that the US does more good than any other country. We keep everyone from going to war and taking over other countries, and we're basically the international police and we provide tons of aide to many different countries that need it.
But please, respect the fact that each country, including the US, just like each one of us, has our own selfish agendas. Our agenda is to do whats best for the US economically. Muslim countries, it seems, have number one on their agenda defending Islam... As we have seen in the last few months, that can kinda clash...

Now why do some of you have a problem understanding or respecting that?
>>




finally, a post that i can respect...
the United States does more for the world than any other country. but lots of people out there still hate us. instead of being astonished by the fact that we're so despised even though we do all this helping, we should really look into why that anti American sentiment exists.

on a side note, it seems like plenty of you have been brainwashed by our media. pick up a copy of the Economist along with your local newspaper and read their articles for a more worldly view.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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<< Most would probably recognize the era of Sulaeyman the Magnificent as being the height of Islamic culture. Here's a brief read about him...
Suleyman
>>

Insightful...



<<

<< Your #3: Similiar to #2. I believe if they wanted to develop culture, society, etc they would have done a better job than what is evident... So are you saying they don't want to, or want to but are unable to? >>



Chose to reject it, actually. Again, the sole exception being Turkey, led by the man called the "Father of modern Turkey,"
Ataturk. The fruits of Western civilization of the the genius of the Enlightenment thinkers is a gift to mankind from the West, the Islamic world could embrace it if they chose to, but have turned inward to a strict religious basis for their way of life.
>>

How can you say they long for the days when they were the most advanced culture on Earth, and blame the US for their lack of advancements, yet at the same time say that they reject it all? I believe the latter, but I don't think you can believe both. I don't believe that the ones in power, or the ones that are trying to fight this jihad with us, want what we have and some of what you said agrees with me...



<<

<< I see no mention of anything related to US foreign policy in your examples. What about our backing of Isreal? >>



The rest of the Arab and Muslim world doesn't give a tinkers damn about the Palestinians - if they did, the Palestinians could have easily been accomodated into their own populations, rather than being used like pawns, kept in place so that the excuse charade can continue.
>>

Its easy to say that from our safe distance but I don't think its about how many militants can you cram into a small straw hut, its about the land of Palestine, and defending the rights of those who live there, and scrreaming Allah is great!!!! er... or something like that...
rolleye.gif
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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That's my post you're quotin'. :D *pats self on back.*

The reason why, as you're asking, is exactly what I'm trying to squeeze out of glenn1 right now. Feel free to join in.



<<

<<

<< It must be PC to hate the US. >>

I wish people would stop making ignorant blanket comments like this. It's one thing to attempt to stir up patriotism but its quite another to use BS to do it.
Intelligent people will know that the US does more good than any other country. We keep everyone from going to war and taking over other countries, and we're basically the international police and we provide tons of aide to many different countries that need it.
But please, respect the fact that each country, including the US, just like each one of us, has our own selfish agendas. Our agenda is to do whats best for the US economically. Muslim countries, it seems, have number one on their agenda defending Islam... As we have seen in the last few months, that can kinda clash...

Now why do some of you have a problem understanding or respecting that?
>>




finally, a post that i can respect...
the United States does more for the world than any other country. but lots of people out there still hate us. instead of being astonished by the fact that we're so despised even though we do all this helping, we should really look into why that anti American sentiment exists.

on a side note, it seems like plenty of you have been brainwashed by our media. pick up a copy of the Economist along with your local newspaper and read their articles for a more worldly view.
>>

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126


<< How can you say they long for the days when they were the most advanced culture on Earth, and blame the US for their lack of advancements, yet at the same time say that they reject it all? >>



The Islamic world today is essentially where Europe was during the Dark Ages. Even if the Islamic world could today be magically brought back to the heights of achievement during the Sulaeyman era, they would still lag behind the West. Essentially, the West reached in the 18th Century the same level of achievement as the Ottomans did in their heyday, and have continued to march forward ever since. The Islamic world has in contrast slipped backwards.



<< as you're asking, is exactly what I'm trying to squeeze out of glenn1 right now. Feel free to join in. >>



I still don't understand what you're trying to "squeeze out of me." If it's that U.S. foreign policy is now, and never has been, of the utmost level of perfection and justice? Of course... we're finite beings, and of course will attempt to steer foreign policy towards goals favorable to ourselves. The U.S. government has made wrong choices and not acted in a way to be proud of before, and i'm sure we will again. I do believe, however, that we at least try to do so within a moral framework which takes into account basic human principles and liberties, and tries to spread the influence of freedom and democracy throughout the world. The U.S. isn't perfect, but we have the advantage of recognizing that fact, and openly discussing what we should do in a democratic fashion. Most of the world's nations don't even have that.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
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Why do we even bother helping people outside of the US.

We did it for our interests, not theirs. We got what we needed out of it, oil security, they got what they needed, their country back. Whether they like us or not is irrevelant - whether you can drive your SUV for less than $3 a gallon is all you need to know.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,770
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glenn1, My question stands. I see nothing in what you quote but conflict referent analogies the aim of which lies totally elsewhere.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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Glenn1,
I'm not trying to squeeze anything out of you. It was an expression. :)

You've provided me with a different slant, one that I haven't explored, and some insight into history. However I believe there are different levels of anger towards the US. There's "you stepped on my foot" mad, there's "you got a better car than I" mad, and then there's "you killed my daughter" mad. The reasons you gave me seemed to fit into that second category, and it disturbs me somewhat to accept those reasons for 9/11, which is a "you killed my daughter" mad kind of reaction...

While you opened my eyes to some possibly valid reasons, I'm not sure they fit what we see today, which fits the discription of "desparation"...

 

teriba

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2001
1,130
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<< teriba

Interesting take on it. Your full of sh!t, but its still an interesting take on it.;)
>>



Thanks:)

I love arguing on the Internet, it brings out the best in everyone.
 

Rivergater

Member
Jan 15, 2002
171
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lets take it back to the original post--
CNN POLL: Muslims call U.S. 'ruthless, arrogant'




want an example of the arrogance they are talking about?
here is a collection of statements from this thread:

Text
Had it not been for the US Kuwait would be the southern tip of Iraq right now.

When I hear things like that it makes me wish we split Kuwait with Iraq.

Funny you should say that. Its quite convinient considering Canada can just sit back and rely on the US for protection.

what makes us more ignorant than you? Just because you come froim a weak ass nation whose dependant on us for your friggin own survival doesn't make us ignorant...

dumb ass, when has terrorism ever stopped the US from doing what we want to do.

ok, fine, how's about this point, you screw with us, your country will end up a big sheet of glass.

Frankly maybe it would have been best if we didn't save their lives as it's not worth being thankful for.

Good news! Ill be dead long before our country is gone. I think we should take yours




i'm sure most of these were said in jest, but it still exudes arrogance.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
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While you opened my eyes to some possibly valid reasons, I'm not sure they fit what we see today, which fits the discription of "desparation"...

But that's part of our MO we HAVE to deny that there is any legitimacy to their grievances. Their actions are undeniably evil but that's not enough. We have to portray THEM as evil; effectively rendering any issue of contention they may raise mute. We are good. They are bad. That's the only rationale we need to kill them and anyone nearby must be a participant or sympathizer (true civilian casualties - and they must be few b/c we don't kill civilians) are an unfortunate circumstance of our just cause. And in the US if you look like them well that's reason enough to suspend some of your constitutional protections for the sake of finding out if you are one of them.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126


<< There's "you stepped on my foot" mad, there's "you got a better car than I" mad, and then there's "you killed my daughter" mad. The reasons you gave me seemed to fit into that second category, and it disturbs me somewhat to accept those reasons for 9/11, which is a "you killed my daughter" mad kind of reaction... >>



I agree, but i'd add one more to your list of "mads"... madman. Sane people, no matter how angry, don't express that anger by methods such as taking a plane and flying it into a skyscraper. That would be the equivalent of a WTC widow wrapping herself in C4 and lighting it off at the Kaa'bbah during the height of the Hajj, with tens of thousands of Muslim pilgrims making the obligatory circuit walks around it. Planned and premeditated mass murder isn't the act of someone in a fit of angry passion, it's the act of a calculated, ruthless, and evil person, coupled with a mental screw loose which makes the whole thing seem like a good idea. Heck, make that a whole box full of mental screws loose.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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The problem with this is, people here whom you would tab as arrogant KNOW they are arrogant, and actually WANT to be arrogant, and therefore see nothing wrong with it...
So its really just falling on deaf ears...



<< lets take it back to the original post--
CNN POLL: Muslims call U.S. 'ruthless, arrogant'

want an example of the arrogance they are talking about?
here is a collection of statements from this thread:

Text
Had it not been for the US Kuwait would be the southern tip of Iraq right now.

When I hear things like that it makes me wish we split Kuwait with Iraq.

Funny you should say that. Its quite convinient considering Canada can just sit back and rely on the US for protection.

what makes us more ignorant than you? Just because you come froim a weak ass nation whose dependant on us for your friggin own survival doesn't make us ignorant...

dumb ass, when has terrorism ever stopped the US from doing what we want to do.

ok, fine, how's about this point, you screw with us, your country will end up a big sheet of glass.

Frankly maybe it would have been best if we didn't save their lives as it's not worth being thankful for.

Good news! Ill be dead long before our country is gone. I think we should take yours




i'm sure most of these were said in jest, but it still exudes arrogance.
>>

 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0


<<

<< There's "you stepped on my foot" mad, there's "you got a better car than I" mad, and then there's "you killed my daughter" mad. The reasons you gave me seemed to fit into that second category, and it disturbs me somewhat to accept those reasons for 9/11, which is a "you killed my daughter" mad kind of reaction... >>



I agree, but i'd add one more to your list of "mads"... madman. Sane people, no matter how angry, don't express that anger by methods such as taking a plane and flying it into a skyscraper. That would be the equivalent of a WTC widow wrapping herself in C4 and lighting it off at the Kaa'bbah during the height of the Hajj, with tens of thousands of Muslim pilgrims making the obligatory circuit walks around it. Planned and premeditated mass murder isn't the act of someone in a fit of angry passion, it's the act of a calculated, ruthless, and evil person, coupled with a mental screw loose which makes the whole thing seem like a good idea. Heck, make that a whole box full of mental screws loose.
>>



So maybe there's a whole culture out there of madmen, people mentally unstable, and maybe groups like Al Qaeda seem to bring up... I dunno. I find it hard to believe that there is this enormous group of madmen out there, mentally deranged, but organized, plotting together, with groups in 160 countries, all willing to die for their cause, well and extensively funded, all plotting just to bring down the US because they're crazed.... I can't make that add up for me...
To me, it seems more likely that they're acting out of desparation...
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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<< The problem with this is, people here whom you would tab as arrogant KNOW they are arrogant, and actually WANT to be arrogant, and therefore see nothing wrong with it... >>

OK, you are right but answer me this. Why should we go out of our way to KowTow to them when it isn't in our best interest? Surely you understand that there's nothing we could possibly do to placate everybody. Someone will always have a hard on for us no matter what we do. If we show any sign of weakness there will always be some who will use it against us. Since we are flawed Species incapable of getting along with each other shouldn't we consider looking after our own first, then those who are our friends second and then finally those who are our antagonist last?
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,229
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www.theshoppinqueen.com


<<

<< The problem with this is, people here whom you would tab as arrogant KNOW they are arrogant, and actually WANT to be arrogant, and therefore see nothing wrong with it... >>

OK, you are right but answer me this. Why should we go out of our way to KowTow to them when it isn't in our best interest? Surely you understand that there's nothing we could possibly do to placate everybody. Someone will always have a hard on for us no matter what we do. If we show any sign of weakness there will always be some who will use it against us. Since we are flawed Species incapable of getting along with each other shouldn't we consider looking after our own first, then those who are our friends second and then finally those who are our antagonist last?
>>




Very well put !

a nation that doesn't see first to the interests of it's own shores often finds itself losing them !

Personally I'm in favor of a little more looking out for US and a little less dishing out of aide and troops to nations that can barely conceal their contempt for us.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126


<< I find it hard to believe that there is this enormous group of madmen out there, mentally deranged, but organized, plotting together, with groups in 160 countries, all willing to die for their cause, well and extensively funded, all plotting just to bring down the US because they're crazed.... I can't make that add up for me...
To me, it seems more likely that they're acting out of desparation...
>>



That's the thing... there aren't enormous numbers of the true madmen out there, willing to commit such acts. Four planes were hijacked, so we're talking about possibly 8 people crazy enough to crash into a building, out of a billion or so Muslims worldwide. Sure, lots may celebrate in the streets, but the actual number that would have been willing to sit in the pilot seat on 9-11 is likely actually pretty small. Otherwise, doesn't it stand to reason that they could have easily hijacked more planes than just 4?

I'm sure desperation has something to do with it as well.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
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0


<<

<< The problem with this is, people here whom you would tab as arrogant KNOW they are arrogant, and actually WANT to be arrogant, and therefore see nothing wrong with it... >>

OK, you are right but answer me this. Why should we go out of our way to KowTow to them when it isn't in our best interest? Surely you understand that there's nothing we could possibly do to placate everybody. Someone will always have a hard on for us no matter what we do. If we show any sign of weakness there will always be some who will use it against us. Since we are flawed Species incapable of getting along with each other shouldn't we consider looking after our own first, then those who are our friends second and then finally those who are our antagonist last?
>>



I'm not saying we should kowtow to anyone at all. For the most paert we ought to look at our own interests primarily. I just think arrogance and pure self-reliance is a dangerous policy... And with most countries we can be a little more diplomatic...

We're not lions and wildebeast in the savannah... But hey, maybe I'm being too idealistic.

RD, I can never figure you out... You always get dissed by the conservatives but yet you're clearly not liberal...
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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busmaster11

Another possibility is that there is a large group of people that are analogous to the Luddites. They do not want any change, they are afraid of change and will fight against any change to their culture and their way of life. The problem with that is their culture is tied to a book that was written for a different era. Many of the rules do not apply to a modern society yet they will fight and die and attack what they think threatens that culture even if that threat is not intentional or malevolent.


 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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<< That's the thing... there aren't enormous numbers of the true madmen out there, willing to commit such acts. Four planes were hijacked, so we're talking about possibly 8 people crazy enough to crash into a building, out of a billion or so Muslims worldwide. Sure, lots may celebrate in the streets, but the actual number that would have been willing to sit in the pilot seat on 9-11 is likely actually pretty small. Otherwise, doesn't it stand to reason that they could have easily hijacked more planes than just 4?

I'm sure desperation has something to do with it as well.
>>


I believe there were 18 guys involved on 9/11, and I was also counting all those kamikaze nuts bombing Isreal, US ships, etc... but that doesn't change your point I suppose. But there are enough members of these militant groups that it doesn't change my point either - which is that I don't think labeling everybody as madmen goes far enough to really understand the situation when its so huge. Oh well, I guess this is where it stalls. Thanks for your input. It was helpful.

Believe it or not, and hopefully you won't have a reason not, but my concerns are my way of looking out for the US's interests, and so are most liberals. We're patriots too.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
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<< busmaster11

Another possibility is that there is a large group of people that are analogous to the Luddites. They do not want any change, they are afraid of change and will fight against any change to their culture and their way of life. The problem with that is their culture is tied to a book that was written for a different era. Many of the rules do not apply to a modern society yet they will fight and die and attack what they think threatens that culture even if that threat is not intentional or malevolent.
>>


Yeah I think we covered that one... It's related to their hatred being the justification that we're the source of the sin and decadence that leaks into their country from the outside. This is a case where there needs to be mutual respect, and as follows, they should find a way to deal with it internally instead of hating us, I think.

I mean, the Jews follow a book even older than theirs, and they're not so naughty... 'Least not till lately...
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,394
19,739
146


<< You guys all seem to be missing the point. People listen to terrorism, people don't listen to peaceful protest. I live in BC where peaceful protest abounds. It seems like it has become many peoples careers out here, chaining themselves to trees, camping out on parliament, etc. These people are not only not listened too, but they are detested. I am not promoting terrorism, but I am saying it is the only way to get attention in todays world. How about this:

"The 60 million people who starve to death every year could be adequately fed by the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 percent."

"Every 2 seconds, a child dies of starvation."

That's a lot of people dying of starvation, the death toll on September 11 is a mere drop in the bucket and inconsequential in the grand scheme.

If you can prove that George W Bush has an iq higher than 80 I will gladly retract my ignorant comment.

All of you just talk about military power, how you can crush all the other nations. We are dependent on you for our own survival? F*ck that, who is going to attack us. We don't need a military presence and you only do because you use offensive economic tactics. If you would just take a couple steps back you too would not have any enemies and wouldn't have to spend several trillion dollars annually on your defense budget.
>>



Good gawd, you've had your head filled with the most ignorant BS I've ever seen.

People aren't starving in the world because of any shortage of food, or over indulgence by Americans, you self hating idiot. People are starving because of one major reason: Oppressive governments or warlords are ruining any supply chain that may have existed and/or ruining economies. Shipping all the damn food in the world to these folks won't do any good until the oppression is removed.

We have countries that are RIGHT NEXT DOOR to each other in Africa. One is well fed, the other starving. WHY? Because those in power have screwed up things so bad, and oppressed their people so bad that food does not move from one area to the next.

Get a freakin' clue, bozo. Here you insult our president's intelligence, yet you're so damn ignorant you can't even grasp WHY mass starvations occur.
 

bizmark

Banned
Feb 4, 2002
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This post is on the reasons for hatred of the US.

1)


<< Another possibility is that there is a large group of people that are analogous to the Luddites. They do not want any change, they are afraid of change and will fight against any change to their culture and their way of life. The problem with that is their culture is tied to a book that was written for a different era. Many of the rules do not apply to a modern society yet they will fight and die and attack what they think threatens that culture even if that threat is not intentional or malevolent. >>



Here's an example of a much deeper level of the arrogance that has been discussed in this thread. It's basically a hard thing to get around, because to all of us, our "modern" society (with its technology, ideas, government, etc.) is the best that ever existed. But to many others around the world, it is not.

In the last 300 years or so, Europeans have basically forced their (our -- I should say, being a person of European ancestry) way of life, which had been developed over millennia into something that worked pretty well for Europeans, onto people who had different societies and different socio-evolutionary paths that had led them to where they stood before their conquest by the Europeans. Europeans, who naturally saw their own worldview as correct, essentially forced this view on the native populations, in both subtle and non-subtle ways. (Non-subtly: if you don't follow our laws, we'll kill you; subtly: if you act this way, that's 'civilized' and therefore raises you above the noncivilized masses.)

We continue this to this day, but it's become much more subtle. We now export our music all over the world, touting it as the "cool" thing to listen to. We bash people for not having women's rights and say "that's not civilized" when it took several centuries for womens' rights to develop in Europe in the first place. Imagine if someone had shown up in Europe in 1600 and said "Okay, you've got to let your women vote and they don't have to wear dresses any more and they have to be given the same level of education as the men" and so forth. You can bet that the Europeans of the time would rightfully want to kick the guy's ass! Who the hell does he think he is, trying to force his ways upon us? (This would occur even though Europe in 1600 was much closer to being "modern" in terms of womens' rights than most Arab nations of today.)

We talk, full of pride in our hearts, of the new 'globalized' world, but really it's just a 'Westernized' or even 'Americanized' world in which true diversity is lost to the overwhelmingly powerful forces of capitalism and materialism which we have unleashed upon the world.
BTW I'm not a Marxist, not even a Socialist. I think that capitalism and materialism can work well in the societies in which these forces/ideas have naturally developed, but I think that they can only wreak havoc in societies which are suddenly expected to change from subsistence farming or gathering societies into players in the global technology and information economy.

2)
Most of all, we sit on our asses in our heated and air conditioned homes while typing away on our computers and we talk about such things as justice and liberty, and bragging about how rich and powerful we are, while at the same time allowing monstrous acts of cruelty to go on all over the world. If people are mercilessly killing each other, we don't care. But if they threaten to withhold oil or otherwise damage our precious economy, we're ready to nuke 'em.

We don't really care about justice and liberty. All that we care about is the computer in front of our faces, the homes that surround us, the TV shows that entertain us, the comfortable beds that we sleep on. Justice? Bah, we can trust John Ashcroft to look after that for us. Liberty? Okay, well I guess I don't mind being strip-searched in the airport. Just as long as it's purportedly protecting me and my property, without which I just wouldn't know how to live.

And you know what? It's that attitude that really pisses people off. As Tyler Durden says in Fight Club, "You are not your fscking Khakis." But so many of us are caught up in it -- "What am I going to wear tomorrow?" "Oh, I really can't decide between the steak and the chicken." "Duron 1.1 or Athlon 900?" Cry me a fscking river, people. There are people right outside your doors, in your own cities and country that have to make a LOT worse decisions than you do. Some of them are probably even your own fscking relatives. (When's the last time you called your grandmother? When's the last time you made sure that she had enough to eat?) "Should I buy medicine or buy food?" "Will I be able to survive the cold tonight?" And it gets a LOT worse outside of the USA. It's right there, plain for everybody to see. And yet, we ignore it. We all just go on with our lives, not caring about other people, just about ourselves and our things.

Well I'm sorry to rant like that, but I thought that I could provide a bit of insight as to why people get so amazingly pissed off at us, when we talk about how powerful we are, we go in and topple governments halfway around the world with impunity, while we all do NOTHING to help the injustices within our own communities and especially in the rest of the world.

Finally, I'm not saying that I'm really any better than the people at whom I ranted in this little rant, but I'm sure as hell trying to be. Thanks for reading.