Israel's role in the coming war.

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
sward, just because Bluefront failed the Postal test does not make him an idiot. It's a tough test and requires aptitudes not universally shared. I myself would have a terrible time on it because of my lack of skill reading (seeing) letters and words, etc. In fact, one would almost have to conclude that it's you who is the idiot, if it were ever a good idea to assume anybody is, since you merely stopped by to call him names and added not one wit to the topic. Why does his opinion reflect a lack of intelligence? It may be wrong, but why? He at least shared his ideas while you just stopped by to take a crap. Now we have to clean up and find which rose bed to apply your manure to.

Moonie, I believe you're wrong in this case. He's an idiot because he's offering opinions on a historical even which he obviously failed to do his homework on. He is then taking his inaccurate conclusions and applying them to current events. That doesn't make too much sense.

 

[Moonbeam]

Wrong about what, Pres, that sward just stopped by to crap. That was my point. I don't happen to share Bluefront's conclusion, I just get tired of the idiot routine. I agree with your statements, but you could also, from my point of view, if you wanted suggest where he made those misinterpretations etc. At least you point to something specific wrong with his statement, not simply that he is an idiot. 😀

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Wrong about what, Pres, that sward just stopped by to crap. That was my point. I don't happen to share Bluefront's conclusion, I just get tired of the idiot routine. I agree with your statements, but you could also, from my point of view, if you wanted suggest where he made those misinterpretations etc. At least you point to something specific wrong with his statement, not simply that he is an idiot. 😀

Okay, that makes sense.

 

[Bulk Beef]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Wrong about what, Pres, that sward just stopped by to crap. That was my point. I don't happen to share Bluefront's conclusion, I just get tired of the idiot routine. I agree with your statements, but you could also, from my point of view, if you wanted suggest where he made those misinterpretations etc. At least you point to something specific wrong with his statement, not simply that he is an idiot. 😀

OK Moonbeam, I considered posting all the reasons why Bluefront is wrong, but they have already been posted above, and he still seems to think that Israel will just happily sit on the sidelines while we do their dirty work, apparently because that's what he wants to believe, and he certainly wouldn't want his opinion clouded by fact. That is what makes him an idiot. Crystal?

 

[Moonbeam]

OK Moonbeam, I considered posting all the reasons why Bluefront is wrong, but they have already been posted above, and he still seems to think that Israel will just happily sit on the sidelines while we do their dirty work, apparently because that's what he wants to believe, and he certainly wouldn't want his opinion clouded by fact. That is what makes him an idiot. Crystal?
---------------------------

Ah yes, a fool convinced against his will is on the same opinion still. Well at least this time you explained yourself. I do think, however, that providing the reasoning you now have is better than what you did the first time because it points to something Bluefront could respond to. He could, for example, not try to show that the reasons given so far aren't accurate and so on.

You are an idiot is just plain tiresome. 😀

 

[Bulk Beef]

You are an idiot is just plain tiresome.

For once, I will have to concede that you are correct, but so are threads that ask questions to which the poster has already decided the answer, particularly when those answers are based on very flawed notions.

 

[Bluefront]

" flawed notions".....heh. I have seen my tax dollars poured into Israel for all the years I've been a tax-payer(quite a few). All I'm asking is a little return on my investment. Since I was a kid I have heard that Israel is our only friend in the ME, our only democratic ally in a world of dictatorships. Well.....if that is true, why wouldn't/can't they help us. Somehow we always seem to give Israel a free ride. I want to see that stop, or I want my tax dollars to stay at home.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
" flawed notions".....heh. I have seen my tax dollars poured into Israel for all the years I've been a tax-payer(quite a few). All I'm asking is a little return on my investment. Since I was a kid I have heard that Israel is our only friend in the ME, our only democratic ally in a world of dictatorships. Well.....if that is true, why wouldn't/can't they help us. Somehow we always seem to give Israel a free ride. I want to see that stop, or I want my tax dollars to stay at home.

Are you really that thick?! They DID help us, by staying out LIKE WE ASKED THEM TO DO. When they listen to us, it's called HELPING us.

 

[Bluefront]

Lets see here....they helped us by not helping us? You make as much sense as Moonie..... You can also say they did not help us by not helping us. Face it....Israel has not helped us in our war efforts, while at the same time remains a finantial liability.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
Lets see here....they helped us by not helping us? You make as much sense as Moonie..... You can also say they did not help us by not helping us. Face it....Israel has not helped us in our war efforts, while at the same time remains a finantial liability.

Well, I guess you really are that thick. Hard to believe, but it seems to be true. I'm not gonna go through another explaination of how staying out like we asked them to do helped us because it kept our coalition together.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well the consolation prize, Pres, and it's a real winner, is that you make as much sense as me. 😀

 

[Bluefront]

" it kept our coalition together". I have heard that crap so many times it makes me puke. Our "coalition" in the last war consisted of mostly Americans, a few Canadians, a few British. Saudi-Arabia let us use their bases because they were the next Iraq target. So was this "coalition" going to break up if Israel joined in? I suppose if you don't want to help your ally, you can always come up with a politically correct reason some will believe.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Well the consolation prize, Pres, and it's a real winner, is that you make as much sense as me. 😀

In this case, I do not mind. To his obviously limited intellectual capacity, NOTHING makes sense, so you and I are in the same boat. Imagine that! 🙂

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
" it kept our coalition together". I have heard that crap so many times it makes me puke. Our "coalition" in the last war consisted of mostly Americans, a few Canadians, a few British. Saudi-Arabia let us use their bases because they were the next Iraq target. So was this "coalition" going to break up if Israel joined in? I suppose if you don't want to help your ally, you can always come up with a politically correct reason some will believe.

The Allied coalition consisted of 34 countries, including Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Honduras, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, The Netherlands, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, South Korea, Spain, Syria, Turkey, The United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom and the United States.

The U.S. had more than 500,000 troops in the Persian Gulf War, while the non-U.S. coalition forces equaled roughly 160,000, or 24 percent, of all forces.

Link

24% of all forces = a few candians and Brits in your mind...........ok.

I'm done with this "argument". History and politics are obviously not your strong points.

 

[Zebo]

They won't help cuz ww3 would start if they did. Simple really. They want to so bad but are chanied down by the US not to do anything.

 

[Vernor]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
" flawed notions".....heh. I have seen my tax dollars poured into Israel for all the years I've been a tax-payer(quite a few). always seem to give Israel a free ride. I want to see that stop, or I want my tax dollars to stay at home.

75% of those dolars stay in the US.


Foreign military aid is just an indirect subisidy to domestic defense contractors. And it ties the recepient to American-made equipment, which in turn leads to billions in additional sales.

 

[m0ti]

Originally posted by: justint

Originally posted by: Bluefront
As I thought I would, I'm hearing the same old excuses as always, when it comes to getting help from Israel. At the very least, they could help us finance the war.....under the table if necessary. They could voice moral support for our war against terrorism. They could publically volunteer support of some sort.

But I'm seeing nothing. We're fighting their war....they're doing nothing.

Israel doesn't have the money to finance any meaningful portion of the war. They are alread the only country in the world where the majority support an invasion of Iraq in no uncertain terms.

Just saw the results from a poll yesterday:

Pro-war 49%
Anit-war 46%
Undecided 5%

I wouldn't call that a majority "in no uncertain terms."

 

[m0ti]

Originally posted by: Vernor

Originally posted by: Bluefront
" flawed notions".....heh. I have seen my tax dollars poured into Israel for all the years I've been a tax-payer(quite a few). always seem to give Israel a free ride. I want to see that stop, or I want my tax dollars to stay at home.

75% of those dolars stay in the US.


Foreign military aid is just an indirect subisidy to domestic defense contractors. And it ties the recepient to American-made equipment, which in turn leads to billions in additional sales.

And keeps Israel from making it's own hardware (e.g. fighter jets) and selling to other countries (e.g. China). Helps the US corner the market even more so on military hardware sales.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
" it kept our coalition together". I have heard that crap so many times it makes me puke. Our "coalition" in the last war consisted of mostly Americans, a few Canadians, a few British. Saudi-Arabia let us use their bases because they were the next Iraq target. So was this "coalition" going to break up if Israel joined in? I suppose if you don't want to help your ally, you can always come up with a politically correct reason some will believe.

The coalition was a lot more than the US, Canadians, British. Substantial forces from other countries were involved in the fighting.

We did more than just beg Israel to not retaliate against Iraq. We launched a massive and militarily useless "Scud Hunt" to take out mobile Scud Launchers in the desert which diverted precious air and special operations assets from the real war. Our final trump card was in refusing to give Israel coalition IFF codes, so if they did attack Iraq they would have had to go through Saudi F-15's, Syrian Migs, as well as US fighters directed by US AWACS planes. We thought it was that important to keep them on a leash, and it is equally important in this coming conflict.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: m0ti

Originally posted by: Vernor

Originally posted by: Bluefront
" flawed notions".....heh. I have seen my tax dollars poured into Israel for all the years I've been a tax-payer(quite a few). always seem to give Israel a free ride. I want to see that stop, or I want my tax dollars to stay at home.

75% of those dolars stay in the US.


Foreign military aid is just an indirect subisidy to domestic defense contractors. And it ties the recepient to American-made equipment, which in turn leads to billions in additional sales.

And keeps Israel from making it's own hardware (e.g. fighter jets) and selling to other countries (e.g. China). Helps the US corner the market even more so on military hardware sales.

Israel really doesn't have the capacity to build from scratch combat aircraft as the Lavi program demonstrated. They do have a thriving business in upgrading old Mirages and Migs though.

 

[Bluefront]

Sorry presence....our coalition was in name only. The USA bore the brunt of the war. Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Honduras, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, The Netherlands, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, South Korea, Spain, Syria, Turkey, The United Arab Emirates. You actually want someone to believe these countries actually did anything other than sign their name to a list? Bah.....

LOL...I never realized how much you helped me yesterday when you didn't show up when I was alone building my barn. Why if it wasn't for your lack of help I might never have finished. Oh my, you were such help here...let me pay you.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: justint

Originally posted by: m0ti

Originally posted by: Vernor

Originally posted by: Bluefront
" flawed notions".....heh. I have seen my tax dollars poured into Israel for all the years I've been a tax-payer(quite a few). always seem to give Israel a free ride. I want to see that stop, or I want my tax dollars to stay at home.

75% of those dolars stay in the US.


Foreign military aid is just an indirect subisidy to domestic defense contractors. And it ties the recepient to American-made equipment, which in turn leads to billions in additional sales.

And keeps Israel from making it's own hardware (e.g. fighter jets) and selling to other countries (e.g. China). Helps the US corner the market even more so on military hardware sales.

Israel really doesn't have the capacity to build from scratch combat aircraft as the Lavi program demonstrated. They do have a thriving business in upgrading old Mirages and Migs though.

We will never really know that untill they are forced to try it on their own. They didn't have the capacity to build tanks either (yes, I realize the immense differences between tanks and jet fighters) untill they were forced to.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
Sorry presence....our coalition was in name only. The USA bore the brunt of the war. Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Honduras, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, The Netherlands, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, South Korea, Spain, Syria, Turkey, The United Arab Emirates. You actually want someone to believe these countries actually did anything other than sign their name to a list? Bah.....

LOL...I never realized how much you helped me yesterday when you didn't show up when I was alone building my barn. Why if it wasn't for your lack of help I might never have finished. Oh my, you were such help here...let me pay you.

Well the Saudis and the Japanese paid for most of the war.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
Sorry presence....our coalition was in name only. The USA bore the brunt of the war. Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Honduras, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, The Netherlands, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, South Korea, Spain, Syria, Turkey, The United Arab Emirates. You actually want someone to believe these countries actually did anything other than sign their name to a list? Bah.....

Their main contributions were letting the US use their air bases. Don't underestimate that. If Israel would've joined in, no more airbases for the US. Besides, they did fight too.

LOL...I never realized how much you helped me yesterday when you didn't show up when I was alone building my barn. Why if it wasn't for your lack of help I might never have finished. Oh my, you were such help here...let me pay you.

Well, if I was dying to help you, and I would've come there to help you no matter what, but you asked me not to because it would completely mess up your plans if I came, then yes, I was a tremendous help by not being there.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: justint

Originally posted by: m0ti

Originally posted by: Vernor

Originally posted by: Bluefront
" flawed notions".....heh. I have seen my tax dollars poured into Israel for all the years I've been a tax-payer(quite a few). always seem to give Israel a free ride. I want to see that stop, or I want my tax dollars to stay at home.

75% of those dolars stay in the US.


Foreign military aid is just an indirect subisidy to domestic defense contractors. And it ties the recepient to American-made equipment, which in turn leads to billions in additional sales.

And keeps Israel from making it's own hardware (e.g. fighter jets) and selling to other countries (e.g. China). Helps the US corner the market even more so on military hardware sales.

Israel really doesn't have the capacity to build from scratch combat aircraft as the Lavi program demonstrated. They do have a thriving business in upgrading old Mirages and Migs though.

We will never really know that untill they are forced to try it on their own. They didn't have the capacity to build tanks either (yes, I realize the immense differences between tanks and jet fighters) untill they were forced to.

That's just the point. They did try it with the Lavi Fighter and found that it would have bankrupted the country to do so and that was with substantial US aid in the R+D sector. A tanks unit cost is usually under 3 million dollars, a modern combat aircraft (non-US) runs around 30+engines, weapons, assorted spares. Israels entire defense budget is around 9 billion dollars. It could cost at least half that to from the ground up design and tool up for a new plane if you were very very lucky, and that doesn't even include finding an engine for it etc. Unless the Israeli economy and population increases dramatically it isn't an option. Even Japan has found that a domestic aviation industry is not economically feasible immediately, they are working up to it by licensing technologies and sub-assemblies from Boeing.

Heck the only reason they can keep thier F-16's, and F-15's running is #1 US military aid #2 All the spare parts etc they do have to buy, and the actual airplanes themselves are purchased under US military contracts so Israel can enjoy the same discounts that the US military gets. Same thing applies to Jordan who also fly US fighters. The only country in the region that pays for its stuff in cash and has plenty of it is Saudi Arabia. They actually spend almost 30 billion a year on defense and they can afford to buy the best of everything. (although we still sell them M1A2 tanks with the export rather than the domestic armor package)