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Israeli tanks pour into Gaza

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etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Fencer128
You think it is all a game?

That's sad.
Of course I don't think it's a game! I first tried to say that there is no doubt that there are those within the Palestinian leadership with some sort of blood on their hands - and furthermore that you wouldn't have to look very far to see many with links, however tenuous, to darker elements. IMHO you'd have to take a very narrow view to think my comments otherwise.
Actually what you said was, if you deal with the Palestinian leadership you have to deal with terrorists.

Now can you explain how the Mossad and Israeli leadership is directly linked to indiscrimanate killing of civilians.

If you are going to bring up Shabra again please be advised that Sharon was found indirectly responsible for that action for failing to foresee what the Phalangists would do. I just didn't want you to waste your time.
I almost didn't bother to grace that comment with a reply. You must have much more information on what exactly went on than me if you see only one side in the Shabra dealings and have no problem with the way Israel conducts it's business with the Palestinians. I didn't directly accuse the Israeli's of indiscriminantly killing civilians - your words not mine - if anything I'd say they were particularly good at inadvertantly killing civilians. I almost forgot, Mossad couldn't possibly have any shady dealings in the way I implied for other parties... part of their remit is assasination (and that goes wrong) and I guess given the impeccable record of the participants in this conflict nothing untoward could ever have been perpertrated by them. No evidence but I'll go with my gut instinct on that one.[/quote]

Perhaps you shouldn't have graced it with a reply, at least not the one you made. Oh well, here goes.

Yes, it is obvious that I have more information on the subject than you. I like how you try to connect Shabra(Christian Phalangists) with Israel and imply that is the normal method of dealing with all Palestinians. You are clever in your innuendo, I'll give you that.

No, you didn't directly accuse the Israelis of indiscriminate killing, you are more subtle than that in your accusations. I see the only evidence you have on the Mossad is over 20 years old and dealt with retribution for the massacre at the Munich games. I watched that live on TV, it wasn't a pretty sight when the helicopter exploded and killed those people because of the Palestinian terrorists.


Andy

EDIT: Nearly forgot, from the BBC archives:

From 16 to 18 September, the Phalangists - who were allied to Israel - killed hundreds of Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps as they were encircled by Israeli troops in one of the worst atrocities of nearly a century of conflict in the Middle East. Mr Sharon resigned from his post as defence minister after a 1983 Israeli inquiry concluded that he had failed to act to prevent the massacre.
Ask yourself why he failed to act and why he had to resign?
Why would he act if he did not know what was going on? You circled yourself into that one Andy. He had to resign because he was the overall military authority of the region. Like the captain of a ship it was his responsibility even if he was not aware of it. He didn't foresee how upset the Phalangists were at the Palestinians for when the Palestinians murdered the Phalangist presidential candidate.



Did he or his men kill them themselves - No, is he partially responsible for their deaths - Yes (read "encircled by Israeli troops"). I guess they just didn't know the massacre was occuring, it only lasted for 3 days.
You have yet to show any proof that the Israelis knew what was happening. I know the stories are out there. There are people with reasons to invent them. There has never been any reputiable proof that Sharon knew or condoned what happened at Shabra despite your little attempts in insinuate otherwise.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
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The US needs to inform Israel it is time to give up their illegal settlements, or we will jump ship and lend our help to the other side trying to drive them out....
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Alistar7
The US needs to inform Israel it is time to give up their illegal settlements, or we will jump ship and lend our help to the other side trying to drive them out....
The same could be said of Syria's illegal occupation of Lebanon. It's strange, you never hear the Arab press blasting that illegal occupation.


Get Syria out of Lebanon Now!
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: etech
Sderot is not in the Gaza strip. The Palestinians don't care what targets they attack as long as they kill Jews.
talk about overgeneralization
:disgust:
How so? Lobbing missiles indiscriminately into Israeli cities is designed for one thing only, to kill and terrorize.
and sure all palestinians are doing it, just like "all" israelis are terrorising palestinians by various methods

It seems to be your turn for overgeneralization. I did not say that all Palestinians are killing indiscriminately, just those that are using terrorism as a means to their political goals.

Nice try to derail the discussion on your part though. You knew the intent of what I ment yet chose to miscontrue it.
sure you did, its like someone would say "The Americans are crazy", "The French smell" and so on
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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sure you did, its like someone would say "The Americans are crazy", "The French smell" and so on
Just because you are being an obnoxious little twerp I'll point out how you are wrong.

What I said was this
"Sderot is not in the Gaza strip. The Palestinians don't care what targets they attack as long as they kill Jews."

The Palestinians that aren't attacking targets are not addressed in the above statement. The Palestinians that are lobbing the missiles or strapping a few pounds of C4 around themselves are the obvious subject of that sentence. They don't care as long as they kill Jews.

It is not the same as you saying Americans are crazy, there are no qualifiers in your examples.


 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
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Actually what you said was, if you deal with the Palestinian leadership you have to deal with terrorists.
I think that does put it rather succinctly. Some maybe indirectly, but most will have some past/present direct links. You couldn't get to be in such a powerful position without first having the backing of those with the guns.

Perhaps you shouldn't have graced it with a reply, at least not the one you made. Oh well, here goes.

Yes, it is obvious that I have more information on the subject than you. I like how you try to connect Shabra(Christian Phalangists) with Israel and imply that is the normal method of dealing with all Palestinians. You are clever in your innuendo, I'll give you that.

No, you didn't directly accuse the Israelis of indiscriminate killing, you are more subtle than that in your accusations. I see the only evidence you have on the Mossad is over 20 years old and dealt with retribution for the massacre at the Munich games. I watched that live on TV, it wasn't a pretty sight when the helicopter exploded and killed those people because of the Palestinian terrorists.
Maybe it sounded like that - but I wasn't trying to link Israel's usual policy regarding Palestinian civilians to Shabra. They are two seperate situations that IMHO can both be condemned. As you may have worked out. I condemn the way Palestinian militants terrorise the Israeli's - but I do not see that giving the Israeli's the "green light" to go ahead and operate as they do though. The "shoot to kill" policy I think they call it? that often means that targetted use of force against suspected terrorist targets results in frequent civillian death is unacceptable in my eyes. Any slackening in the suicide/grenade/etc attacks bought about by a show/use of force only allows for brief respite before the terrorists regroup and attack with new hatred and vigour. Because of the long history of this I also don't see the justification for acceptable civilian casualties given the terrorist threat - it brings them no nearer to a real peace. These attacks are offering nothing in the way of real safety - as without doubt the terroists will still recruit and continue their plans. Only when military force is backed up with hard diplomacy do I see any justification. Strangely enough, we might be at the beginning of that point right now with the roadmap - but this has not been the case for a long while.

With regard to the Israeli's having questions to answer and being responsible for activities you would not expect from a civilised government - I have no doubt. Both sides in this have employed increasingly desperate tactics to "win". I don't see how it can be reasoned that Israel has not "crossed the line of legallity" when attempting to ensure victory.

Shabra stands out as a point because the logic behind it seems so untenable. I do not see how the Israeli's could not know what was going on. They had a large presence in the surrounding area and the whole thing lasts days. It seems entirely implausable that know one in the Israeli forces had a clue. I have seen some of the fcats myself and their is still much ambiguity to be had.

I do not think we stand so far apart in our view of the situation. We both condemn terrorist activity and we both see that Israel is not the almighty oppressor. However, it seems we do disagree on how far Israel should be allowed to go in it's activities and also the extent to which they need to answer legal/human rights questions of their own.

Cheers,

Andy
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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Originally posted by: etech
sure you did, its like someone would say "The Americans are crazy", "The French smell" and so on
Just because you are being an obnoxious little twerp I'll point out how you are wrong.

What I said was this
"Sderot is not in the Gaza strip. The Palestinians don't care what targets they attack as long as they kill Jews."

The Palestinians that aren't attacking targets are not addressed in the above statement. The Palestinians that are lobbing the missiles or strapping a few pounds of C4 around themselves are the obvious subject of that sentence. They don't care as long as they kill Jews.

It is not the same as you saying Americans are crazy, there are no qualifiers in your examples.
edt.
I see what you mean, just used to see this sortof blatant bashing on this forum

but still, easy on the language:disgust:
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Don't be fooled Czar because you aren't a native speaker. Your original statement of oversimplification was an understatement of the bigotry implied in etech's original remark:

"The Palestinians don't care what targets they attack as long as they kill Jews."

'The Palestinians' is 'all Palestinians' and can as easily be read as 'All Palestinians don't care what targets they attack as long as they kill Jews.'

etech: "I did not say that all Palestinians are killing indiscriminately, just those that are using terrorism as a means to their political goals."

I don't doubt that you didn't mean to say that, but that's exactly what you did say in English, and Czar had was not only not being a twerp, but had a moral obligation to call you on your statement to get it clarified. You should have rephrased it rather than pretend it didn't say what it did. There were no so called qualifiers in it, period. Sorry!

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,439
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Originally posted by: Czar
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3029929.stm


About 50 tanks and helicopters entered the northern town of Beit Hanoun, leaving three Palestinians dead - including a 12-year-old boy, according to Palestinian witnesses.

The Israelis say the raid was launched after dozens of mortar bombs and rockets were fired at Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip and the southern Israeli town of Sderot in recent days.

The incursion comes on Nakba, which Palestinians describe as "Catastrophe day" - when they mark the anniversary of the displacement that accompanied the creation of the state of Israel in 1948.

It also comes two days before the first meeting between Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his counterpart Mahmoud Abbas - widely known as Abu Mazen.
Witnesses say Israeli bulldozers destroyed four homes belonging to suspected militants.


They say the Palestinians killed in the raid included two men and a 12-year-old boy.

According to doctors, the boy was left to bleed to death, as Israeli troops prevented paramedics from reaching the scene.

The Israeli army said it knew nothing about the circumstances of the boy's death.

On Nakba day, Palestinians traditionally attend rallies holding banners with the names of villages they or their family fled in 1948.

"It seems they [Israeli soldiers] are also commemorating the Nakba with us, but in their own bloody way," a Beit Hanoun resident told Reuters news agency.

Israeli tanks were also reported in the nearby town of Beit Lahiya and the Jabaliya refugee camp.
not good news for the peace process:disgust:
who says that the leadership on either side actually wants peace?
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
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who says that the leadership on either side actually wants peace?
Your typical Jew and Palestinian likely want it.

There is no solution to this mess other than to turn back the clock to the end of WW2 and prevent the U.N. from carving out a block of arab land and calling it a country.

"The Palestinians don't care what targets they attack as long as they kill Jews." Etech just amend your post to say "Palestinian terrorists" and you're good to go.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Peace will come when I stop being afraid. I will cease to fear when every threat is eliminated. Fear isn't in my mind. My fear is real and out there. Naturally I could die to my fear, but to do so I would have to face it and know what it is. No way am I going to remember what happened to me when I was small. It was horrible and I died to forget it. Not going to redie, to remember dying, all over again. Better that the world dies first. Much better that life ends than I awaken.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Etech,
Isn't that why the US does not want to deal with Arafat, his terrorist past?

I don't see him being brought to justice though.[/quote]

All the Israeli folks from back in '48 were considered terrorists... by our Brittish friends.. no?
So I wonder why it is not the kettle and pot thing...
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Quote
:) IMHO If you play the Kevin Bacon game with the Palestinian leadership - you're bound to throw up some interesting results. I'm just going with my experiences of the IRA leadership.

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

Ah... the nobility of it all.. The IRA, the patriots to the underdog... say go home...
the Israeli say go home....
the palestinian says I am home.... Palestine is my home...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Where exactly did Palastine exist and how was it named?
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I believe that Indiana is the Indian home state, but before that it was the Sioux and before that the Ileialo and before that the wamali and before that the kaskota and before that the mumu and before that the egvorb and before that the jojo and before that the mobo and before that the baba and before that the uh uhuh and before that the ug and the ug spread over the earth going ug ug ug ug wherever they went. Ane the u u saw and was pleased. And u u said that wherever the ug ug go there will I be for they are my mirror and I am theirs. And their lands shall be known as the garden and therein shall they sow. And the ug ug spread throughout the garden. Later, the itaw came to throw them out because having suffused the garden with their being, they had forgotten to give it a name. For the itaw being is nothing, everything is in the name.












sioux
 

przero

Platinum Member
Dec 30, 2000
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Moonbeam - Thanks for the intelligent reply. I have officially removed rocket science off of your "potential careers list".
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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But I thought your tired worn out empty argument deserved a fresh reply. That's rocket science at its finest. But it takes a rocket scientist to know one.
 

Torghn

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But I thought your tired worn out empty argument deserved a fresh reply. That's rocket science at its finest. But it takes a rocket scientist to know one.
Liar.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,360
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przero: "Anyone? Move on!"
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In the future Moonbeam please only rebutt my arguments in a way that is clearly false and refutable. Never show my questions up for the airheaded jokes they are. It upsets me even though I clearly asked for a comment. I didn't mean yours. And now that my plan didn't work move on. I don't want you here. You spoiled my fun. I have a big ego and don't like having my well thought out design spoiled. Go away. I'm in a big huff. Come back when I grow up.
 

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