Israeli settlers burn 1,500+ Palestinian olive trees

[Harabec]

Originally posted by: SheriffA00

Originally posted by: Harabec

Originally posted by: SheriffA00
The World Court deems the border beyond 1967 ILLEGAL.
The World Court deems all settlements beyond those borders ILLEGAL.

What is it going to do about it?

They can't do anything because Israel does whatever it wants to do without regard for anyone else on the planet. And nobody can do anything because they are a nuclear power.

I'm sure if Israel respected the World Courts findings and pulled back its settlements(colonies) and borders the world would warmer to them. Boycotts would ease, trade embargos would be lifted, and so on.

Ok...consider my answer an honest one, from the point of view of someone on the other side:

Putting "humane issues" aside for a bit, no country has ever loved or even wanted us. The world moves forward due to people's interests and not much else. They are what makes trading with the "other guy" bearable and profitable as you disregard political issues (no matter how hot they are on ATP&N).
Otherwise, I'm not sure the USA would be able to deal with China. Yet you do because trade and money go before ideals.
As long as the country is highly productive and provides valueable goods to other countries, everyone will continue to look the other way (on both sides of every trade in the world).
One known sentence sums it up and gives a good example - "Nobody cares about Africa". Why? because except for exploiting some natural resources (now done by private companies), most countries there are beached failboats. The US sometimes tries, I think, without much success.
Boycotts, embargos etc. are peanuts and do not currently matter in the grand scheme of things due to the above.

Next. What you see now in the conflict is the result of 2 people trying to settle the same space. I've read an excellent article (I'll try to find it) explaining exactly how it is happening throughout human history. What is interesting is that NOW, because of world politics, the game cannot run its full course, one way or another. In a world where the stronger side can no longer win wars because it'll make him look bad, both sides end up losing due to constant, neverending local conflicts.

There ARE ways to (peacefully) solve this but they are considered extreme by both sides
and unfit for real life. What will happen in the future, we'll see.

I'm not going into Right or Wrong here because I doubt there are very few decent people here when you disregard the right/left crazies (btw, it always makes me laugh how people in the US are so stuck to this right/left system that they cannot look at the big picture and entertain other ideas. Then again I bet Moonbeam will say something similar about me).

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Harabec
Putting "humane issues" aside for a bit, no country has ever loved or even wanted us.

This idea of some exceptional prejudice towards Jews is just a Zionist myth. There are always bigots who hate anyone who isn't part of the majority to some extent or another, and this can be seen in Israel just like anywhere else. Furthermore, Jews have been more appreciated than other minorities throughout much of history. Jews were well respected in Europe prior to the rise of the Nazis, and it was Zionists themselves who gave European bigots the slogan "Jews go back to Palestine". Surely we'd all be far better off to continue leading the world away from such tribalistic stereotyping rather than embracing it.

Originally posted by: Harabec
What you see now in the conflict is the result of 2 people trying to settle the same space.

You are imagining a false symmetry here. In fact, Palestinians were living peacefully in the region when Zionist in Europe set their minds to settling it for themselves.

 

[ForumMaster]

those responsible should be thrown in jail, and be held financially liable for all damage done to Palestinian property.
a. they are not allowed to build illegal settlements in occupied territories (the west bank)
b. when they are evicted by the police and the army, they take it out on Innocent locals who have done nothing wrong to them?

i hate people like this. i hope they get shot in the head.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I have no idea whatsoever how some ancient texts or any bs changes the fact that different people were living there when they were so rudely kicked out - Fuck anyone who thinks that was acceptable.. put yourself in the shoes of those removed and you would want to kill the ones who said they are so superior that you need to move so we can live here..

If I came to your neighborhood and told you some ancient text said my family owned this whole area for 5 mile radius and told you to GTFO and then forced you to leave with guns and tanks.. what would you do?

Cue JS80, lupi, and other Zionist apologists telling you that those people were never there and people just settled into Jaffa, Haifa, Safad, Beesan, and Akka into buildings that somehow grew out of the fucking ground.

 

[lupi]

From magic beans I heard.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: Harabec
Putting "humane issues" aside for a bit, no country has ever loved or even wanted us.

This idea of some exceptional prejudice towards Jews is just a Zionist myth. There are always bigots who hate anyone who isn't part of the majority to some extent or another, and this can be seen in Israel just like anywhere else. Furthermore, Jews have been more appreciated than other minorities throughout much of history. Jews were well respected in Europe prior to the rise of the Nazis, and it was Zionists themselves who gave European bigots the slogan "Jews go back to Palestine". Surely we'd all be far better off to continue leading the world away from such tribalistic stereotyping rather than embracing it.

Originally posted by: Harabec
What you see now in the conflict is the result of 2 people trying to settle the same space.

You are imagining a false symmetry here. In fact, Palestinians were living peacefully in the region when Zionist in Europe set their minds to settling it for themselves.

Zionist myth? Are you talking about pogroms against jews in Russia? Or the enslavement of jews in ancient Egypt? Or the Spanish Inquisition? Or racism against Jews in the US south? The holocaust?

You need to get real.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: dahunan
I have no idea whatsoever how some ancient texts or any bs changes the fact that different people were living there when they were so rudely kicked out - Fuck anyone who thinks that was acceptable.. put yourself in the shoes of those removed and you would want to kill the ones who said they are so superior that you need to move so we can live here..

If I came to your neighborhood and told you some ancient text said my family owned this whole area for 5 mile radius and told you to GTFO and then forced you to leave with guns and tanks.. what would you do?

Cue JS80, lupi, and other Zionist apologists telling you that those people were never there and people just settled into Jaffa, Haifa, Safad, Beesan, and Akka into buildings that somehow grew out of the fucking ground.

Let me know when they start settling in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt so I can call my Congressman to send Israel more money. World will be a better place for it.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: dahunan
I have no idea whatsoever how some ancient texts or any bs changes the fact that different people were living there when they were so rudely kicked out - Fuck anyone who thinks that was acceptable.. put yourself in the shoes of those removed and you would want to kill the ones who said they are so superior that you need to move so we can live here..

If I came to your neighborhood and told you some ancient text said my family owned this whole area for 5 mile radius and told you to GTFO and then forced you to leave with guns and tanks.. what would you do?

Cue JS80, lupi, and other Zionist apologists telling you that those people were never there and people just settled into Jaffa, Haifa, Safad, Beesan, and Akka into buildings that somehow grew out of the fucking ground.

Let me know when they start settling in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt so I can call my Congressman to send Israel more money. World will be a better place for it.

That is exactly what the world needs. Do you think they'll burn any more trees as they settle, should we bring marshmallows?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: dahunan
I have no idea whatsoever how some ancient texts or any bs changes the fact that different people were living there when they were so rudely kicked out - Fuck anyone who thinks that was acceptable.. put yourself in the shoes of those removed and you would want to kill the ones who said they are so superior that you need to move so we can live here..

If I came to your neighborhood and told you some ancient text said my family owned this whole area for 5 mile radius and told you to GTFO and then forced you to leave with guns and tanks.. what would you do?

Cue JS80, lupi, and other Zionist apologists telling you that those people were never there and people just settled into Jaffa, Haifa, Safad, Beesan, and Akka into buildings that somehow grew out of the fucking ground.

Let me know when they start settling in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt so I can call my Congressman to send Israel more money. World will be a better place for it.

That is exactly what the world needs. Do you think they'll burn any more trees as they settle, should we bring marshmallows?

Maybe they should strap bombs to robots and send them into palestinian cafes instead.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: dahunan
I have no idea whatsoever how some ancient texts or any bs changes the fact that different people were living there when they were so rudely kicked out - Fuck anyone who thinks that was acceptable.. put yourself in the shoes of those removed and you would want to kill the ones who said they are so superior that you need to move so we can live here..

If I came to your neighborhood and told you some ancient text said my family owned this whole area for 5 mile radius and told you to GTFO and then forced you to leave with guns and tanks.. what would you do?

Cue JS80, lupi, and other Zionist apologists telling you that those people were never there and people just settled into Jaffa, Haifa, Safad, Beesan, and Akka into buildings that somehow grew out of the fucking ground.

Let me know when they start settling in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt so I can call my Congressman to send Israel more money. World will be a better place for it.

That is exactly what the world needs. Do you think they'll burn any more trees as they settle, should we bring marshmallows?

Maybe they should strap bombs to robots and send them into palestinian cafes instead.

There's a nice thought: you're gone, way gone.

 

[Lemon law]

The point being, in 1948, the Israeli government could have fairly treated both Israeli Jews and Palestinians, and instead has opted to be a pack of thieves, robbing Palestinians of their land and sending the then disenfranchised Palestinians into sub human concentration camps.

That Israeli trend continues even today, and somehow Israeli apologists fail to notice how grotesquely unfair this is.

Granted some jews have been the victims of the same type discrimination, but it should not and cannot morph into a license to steal from someone else. Israeli has sadly become the New Nazi party without a dime's worth of difference.

There is a giant difference between what Israel could have become and what it is, the former was worth supporting, the latter is not.

 

[Darthvoy]

Originally posted by: lupi
From magic beans I heard.

I guess covering your ears and going "la la la la" works for you. Stop being unreasoneable. Debate like an adult and stop using kindergatten argument techniques because it shows your ignorance far more than anything else.

I, like everyone else, would love to see peace in the region. I don't have a "side". I take a more humanistic view at the situation. The burning of the trees (the livelyhood of many, I assume) was just wrong. I don't see how this sort of retaliation can be justified. The whole Israeli/Palestine debate is older than the internet, and quite frankly it gets old quick. I don't think I will see peace in the middle east in my lifetime unless there is some sort of Alien threat that unites us all... kind of like the movie Independence Day.

 

[ChunkiMunki]

"palestinian sources say" uh huh

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: kylebisme
This idea of some exceptional prejudice towards Jews is just a Zionist myth. There are always bigots who hate anyone who isn't part of the majority to some extent or another, and this can be seen in Israel just like anywhere else. Furthermore, Jews have been more appreciated than other minorities throughout much of history. Jews were well respected in Europe prior to the rise of the Nazis, and it was Zionists themselves who gave European bigots the slogan "Jews go back to Palestine". Surely we'd all be far better off to continue leading the world away from such tribalistic stereotyping rather than embracing it.

Zionist myth? Are you talking about pogroms against jews in Russia? Or the enslavement of jews in ancient Egypt? Or the Spanish Inquisition? Or racism against Jews in the US south? The holocaust?

You need to get real.

I said the idea that such prejudice is exceptional is a myth. The pogroms against Jews in Russia were only a fraction of the factional violence which consumed the crumbling Russian Empire, with many innocents killed on all sides, and murderers on all sides too. As for the enslavement of Jews in ancient Egypt, that is more rightly a Biblical myth. In regard the other examples you mention; while they are all facts of history, the persecution wasn't directed at just Jews, but rather pretty much anyone deemed different by the respective establishments. Again, the reality is that there are always bigots who hate anyone who isn't part of the majority, and such victimization is not exclusive to Jews by any reasonable account of history.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki
"palestinian sources say" uh huh

The topic is actually based on an Israeli source, but your attempt to dismiss the information simply on the idea that is from Palestinian sources says much regardless.

 

[Chaotic42]

I'm kind of scared to get into this, but how long does someone have to live in a land before it is "theirs"? That land has changed hands many times, and I'm wondering what makes it so concretely belong to one group or another.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42
I'm kind of scared to get into this, but how long does someone have to live in a land before it is "theirs"? That land has changed hands many times, and I'm wondering what makes it so concretely belong to one group or another.

An inability to recognise that a finite lifespan precludes true ownership of any land and enough guns, bombs and lack of thought, on either side, to ensure that any rational voices remain unheard or unheeded.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki
"palestinian sources say" uh huh

The topic is actually based on an Israeli source, but your attempt to dismiss the information simply on the idea that is from Palestinian sources says much regardless.

But I was always told not to listen to the people that don't exist!

 

[ChunkiMunki]

got an axe to grind, need to feed the arab world another "story"about jews sticking to the poor palistinians, so everyone can nod heads in agreement, maybe add a little hyperbole, exaggeration and white lies for sweetener....yeah I will dismiss the source.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki
got an axe to grind, need to feed the arab world another "story"about jews sticking to the poor palistinians, so everyone can nod heads in agreement, maybe add a little hyperbole, exaggeration and white lies for sweetener....yeah I will dismiss the source.

Dismiss yourself, nobody cares what you think; wait, I take that back, anybody on trial for burning down 1500 olive trees would definitely want you on the jury.

You see, like a lot of the other bitter morons posting on this thread, you have wrongly identified this as a opportunity to defend Israel's legitimacy and stance towards the Palestinians. Any action, no matter how heinous, is met with senseless flag waving that you, in some perverse corner of your mind, offer up as some sort of justification.

They burned down 1500 trees.

Now, if you follow forum trends, you should post back enquiring whether or not I am as hasty to condemn Palestinian suicide bombers or similar nonsense.

You are part of the problem; however, you have plenty of friends in this enlightened corner of the Internet.

You should all be ashamed.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Same story (I think), different report.

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/...7340,L-3750213,00.html

23:18 , 07.21.09

Palestinian: Nothing done to curb settler violence
West Bank resident whose olive trees were uprooted says, 'This has been going on for years, but we've never heard of a settler being arrested'
Ali Waked

A Palestinian whose olive trees were apparently cut down by Jewish settlers on Tuesday as part of the policy to make the Palestinian civilian population pay for the evacuation of outposts accused Israel of not doing enough to curb the violence.

"These incidents have been going on for years, but we've never heard of a settler being arrested or prosecuted," said Muhammad Ziban of the West Bank village of Burin, whose family has been growing olive trees for 50 years.

He said 22 of the family's trees were uprooted on Tuesday. "The night before they (settlers) burned 35 olive trees. It's not easy to witness this; it's very difficult," Ziban told Ynet.

"To see these trees disappear overnight ? it's not easy to see them turned to dust. It was extremely painful for us."

According to him, police and army forces arrived at the family's olive grove, "but I don?t know if they actually did anything or if they intend to take any action against the perpetrators."

More: http://www.ynet.co.il/english/...7340,L-3749968,00.html

Settlers: Haredi struggle proves only violence works
As IDF searches for perpetrators in West Bank olive tree arson, settlers distribute leaflet encouraging adoption of fighting tactics of haredim during their struggle against city of Jerusalem and police
Efrat Weiss

Settlers cut down and torched some 15 trees near the West Bank Palestinian village of Burin on Tuesday, in what IDF forces believe was part of the extreme Right's "price tag" policy, which seeks to make the Palestinian civilian population pay for the evacuation of outposts.

Meanwhile, rightists distributed a leaflet in the West Bank signed by "the residents of Judea and Samaria" with the title "Learn from the haredim, win the battle," claiming that "only those who upturn tables win."

The leaflet's authors claimed that force must be used in order to achieve their objectives. "This is what the Arabs did in the intifada, and they received their Terror Authoirty on a silver platter. This is what the Druze did in Pekiin, and no one bothers them.

"This is what the haredim in Mea Shearim did, and the police folded. The time has come for us to internalize and understand this. You don't win with love. A battle fought with hugs doesn't achieve anything. Only with force will we prevail."

Right-wing activist Itamar Ben-Gvir told Ynet: "Unfortunately, Netanyahu and Barak are dragging our youths into carrying out harsh acts. The message is that whoever doesn't fight is a pushover. They are igniting a fire. They shouldn't come complaining about the grave implications of their actions."

Within the framework of the "price tag" policy, action is already being taken by the settlers. Palestinian olive trees were burned in the West Bank on Tuesday. Palestinian Member of Parliament Walid Aasaf was lightly wounded when settlers threw stones at his car near Havat Gilad junction in the West Bank. His car was damaged in the incident. The Civil Administration recommended that he submit a formal complaint to them.

On Monday, fields were set ablaze near Yitzhar and Palestinians reported that a number of people were injured when settlers threw stones in protest of the evacuation of illegal West Bank outposts.

Ultra-Orthodox demonstrators have recently taken to the streets, burning garbage bins, throwing stones, and stopping traffic first in protest against the opening of the Safra and Karta municipal parking lots on Saturdays, and then against the arrest of the haredi mother suspected of starving her toddler son.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Actually I think, mind you I have no proof, but i just could not pass up the shock value that the following unsubstatiated statement will make, in this case lack of proof has no bearing on what i dreamed a few nights ago --Jewish extremist back in the early 19th century were strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up buses.

-- quote fixed for accuracy sake!!


Actually you have no proof at all of this mis-guided statement.
No bearing on a facts!
You have been reading way too many anti-israeli blogs!

 

[Zebo]

But that threatens the essence of the "Jewish" state, the racist essence.
-------------------
Like Muslim countries is not just as racist. Try opening a church or synagogue in Saudi and many others where it's illegal. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right but Jews have their suspicions about multiculturalism after being run out, killed, second class dhimmitude in Arabia and Europa for generations.

 

[kylebisme]

Is there even one other Muslim country besides Saudi Arabia where practicing a religion other than Islam is illegal, or are you just citing the exception to claim it as the rule?

 

[FaaR]

Is there even one other Muslim country besides Saudi Arabia where practicing a religion other than Islam is illegal, or are you just citing the exception to claim it as the rule?

You could try going from door to door, telling people you're a Jehovah's Witness, and spreading the word of the good lord; here, please take a copy of the Watchtower, in Iran for example... See how far that gets you.