Israeli settlers burn 1,500+ Palestinian olive trees

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mrCide

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 1999
6,187
0
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Between lupi, js80, the other really ridiculous Israeli apologists, why do you people respond to their posts? It's obvious they won't be swayed and they're always going to be outlandish illogical nonsense. Even Common Courtesy is in their boat, why waste the time arguing with them I wonder. Anyone with a brain can see a legitimate argument, these folks cannot.

Hell how many Israeli apologists have we banned since we started P&N due to attacks on sane posters? Anyway.
 

cumhail

Senior member
Apr 1, 2003
682
0
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If the sides were reversed and Palestinians on horseback burned (or tried to burn) 1500 Israeli olive trees and stone Israeli cars, how would the Israeli government and/or the IDF respond?

Either they will deal with this situation in exactly the same way or they will demonstrate and reinforce the idea that there is no rule of law, no equity, and no sense of fairness in the Israeli's treatment of the Palestinians.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: miniMUNCH

Oh and all those wars that Israel won... they never could have done it without all the the money and weapons the US gave to Israel. Without the weapons, Israel would have been forces to be diplomatic. With the weapons they could do whatever the hell they wanted within the limits of what the international community would let them get away with.
The US was not providing military support to Israel until after the '67 conflict.
Arab nations were getting support from the Soviets 10 years earlier, if not longer.

Israel did it on her own for the first 20 years.
The '73 conflict was where US hardware was fully utilized and showed the quality of the Soviet hardware.

Since then, Israel has used US equipment on the Iraq nuke strike in '81, syria nuke strike 2 years ago, to push the PLO out of Lebanon and on attacks against the Arab militants.

With the exception of Iraq; they could have used non US equipment; but at the potential expense of more of their casualties.

The support that Israel has gotten has force the Arabs to at least acknowledge that continual direct attacks are a losing proprosition.



Originally posted by: miniMUNCH

The only problem is almost every time the UN tried/tries to pass a resolution against the actions of Israel, the US veto's it down.... good times.

Many of the resolutions were Arab/Soviet bloc sponsored to harass Israel.
Notice that other resolutions were ignored by the Arabs just like Israel ignores them.

Most of the resolutions are political feel good measures with no intention of enforcing them or being enforced.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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This is an act of sour grapes by the Israeli settlers and should not be tolerated by the government

I could undertand if they wanted/chose to scorched earth the lands they were being forced to vacate; but to attack groves that are not involved is WRONG.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
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Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
The US was not providing military support to Israel until after the '67 conflict.
Arab nations were getting support from the Soviets 10 years earlier, if not longer.

That's disputed, the Brits and US were secretly supplying Israel according to some sources.

"In his book Six Days, veteran BBC journalist Jeremy Bowen claims that on 4 June 1967, the Israeli ship Miryam left Felixstowe with cases of machine guns, 105 mm tank shells, and armored vehicles in "the latest of many consignments of arms that had been sent secretly to Israel from British and American reserves since the crisis started" and that "Israeli transport planes had been running a 'shuttle service' in and out of RAF Waddington in Lincolnshire". Bowen claims that Harold Wilson had written to Eshkol saying that he was glad to help as long as the utmost secrecy was maintained."

Text

I already know what your response will be so you needn't bother.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
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Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: TruePaige

Right..turn it around on Israel.

When a group wants to destroy the Jewish state of Israel, and thinks they have no right to exist, and fights a war and to this day launches terrorist attacks to that end, retaliation is only natural.

I see the obvious agenda you are pushing.

Pretty obvious to see yours.

I love the online IDF, you say anything not positive about Israel and a bunch of idiots crawl out of the woodwork to defend them.

Palestinians shoot a rocket at a illegal Israeli settlement? Terrorists, kill them all.
Israels shoot white phosphorous at civilians? They were simply defending themselves.

Palestinian terrorist disguise their bases and uses civilians as cover. You cannot distinguish "civilians" from actual civilians with 100% accuracy, at least Israel tries and doesn't murder innocents on purpose.

Well thats the funny thing about asymmetric warfare, when you are occupied by another country, you can't really make military bases. Not a difficult concept, I'm sure you could find someone who could explain it to you.
Keep believing that Israel doesn't hit civilians on purpose, its funny seeing people believe that.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Link
Eager to increase its influence in the region, and prevent Nasser from going over to the Soviet Bloc, U.S. policy was not to become too closely allied with Israel. In the early 1960s, the U.S. would begin to sell advanced weapons to Israel (Hawk anti aircraft missiles), but also to Egypt and Jordan.

During Lyndon B. Johnson's presidency, U.S. policy shifted to a whole-hearted, but not unquestioning, support for Israel. Prior to the Six-Day War of 1967, U.S. administrations had taken some care to avoid giving the appearance of any active military alliance.

Leading up to the war, while the Administration was sympathetic to Israel's need to defend itself against foreign attack, the U.S. worried that Israel's response would be disproportionate and potentially destabilizing. Israel's raid into Jordan after the Samu Incident was also troubling to the U.S. because Jordan was also an ally, having received over $500 million in aid.

...

Much to its pleasure, especially for the time, the United States saw a democracy defeat the combined forces of multiple Soviet-backed countries. Following the war, the perception in Washington was that many Arab states (notably Egypt) had permanently drifted toward the Soviets. In 1968, with strong support from Congress, Johnson approved the sale of Phantom fighters to Israel, establishing the precedent for U.S. support for Israel's qualitative military edge over its neighbors. The U.S., however, would continue to supply arms to Israel's neighbors, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia, to counter Soviet arms sales in the region.


 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
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Originally posted by: irishScott
<snip>

The more the Israelis pressure the Palestinians, the more desperate they'll get, the more militant they'll get, and it'll get to the point where Israel will basically have to wipe Gaza off the map to stop said attacks. The only way this will stop is a simultaneous stand-down. Good luck with that. :roll:

<snip>

Well, the wall so far is working and the Iron Dome (missile interception system for rockets/motors fired at Israel) is due to go online next year. While limited and costly, if Israel can create a buffer in gaza and the west bank, zone through it's own power or peace keepers, to keep the smaller rockets out of range of targets in Israel then the palis will be forced ot use bigger and more hard to get rockets that the Iron Dome will work wonders on. Over time I imagine the Iron Dome will be improced. By 2014 they plan on having basaltic defense defense too,

The wall also seems to be working.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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Little facts about Olive trees

Pliny the Elder told of a sacred Greek olive tree that was 1600 years old. Several trees in the Garden of Gethsemane (from the Hebrew words "gat shemanim" or olive press) in Jerusalem are claimed to date back to the time of Jesus.[6] Some Italian olive trees are believed to date back to Roman times, although identifying progenitor trees in ancient sources is difficult.

One olive tree in Bar, Montenegro, is claimed to be over 2000 years old [7]

The age of an olive tree in Crete, claimed to be over 2,000 years old, has been determined on the basis of tree ring analysis.[8] Another well-known olive tree on the island of Brijuni (Brioni), Istria in Croatia, has been calculated to be about 1,600 years old. It still gives fruit (about 30 kg per year), which is made into top quality olive oil.[9]

According to a recent scientific survey, there are tens of ancient olive trees throughout Biblical Israel, 1600-2000 years old,[10] from even before the rise of Islam. Specifically, two giant olive trees in the Arab town of Arraba and five trees in Deir Hanna, both in Galilee region, have been determined to be over 3000 years old. All seven trees continue to produce olives.[10]

A tree located in Santu Baltolu di Carana in Sardinia, Italy, named with respect as the Ozzastru by the inhabitants of the region, is claimed to be 3000 to 4000 years old according to different studies. In the same natural garden, a few other millenary trees can be admired.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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Lot of 'stupid' in this thread.

The Israeli's displaced by their own forces had no cause to burn the Palestinians olive orchards. They should be held accountable and be forced to make restitution too.

Bashing Christians is stupid, they've got nothing to do with any of this, including posts here you don't like.

Fern
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
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Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: TruePaige

Right..turn it around on Israel.

When a group wants to destroy the Jewish state of Israel, and thinks they have no right to exist, and fights a war and to this day launches terrorist attacks to that end, retaliation is only natural.

I see the obvious agenda you are pushing.

Pretty obvious to see yours.

I love the online IDF, you say anything not positive about Israel and a bunch of idiots crawl out of the woodwork to defend them.

Palestinians shoot a rocket at a illegal Israeli settlement? Terrorists, kill them all.
Israels shoot white phosphorous at civilians? They were simply defending themselves.

Palestinian terrorist disguise their bases and uses civilians as cover. You cannot distinguish "civilians" from actual civilians with 100% accuracy, at least Israel tries and doesn't murder innocents on purpose.

Well thats the funny thing about asymmetric warfare, when you are occupied by another country, you can't really make military bases. Not a difficult concept, I'm sure you could find someone who could explain it to you.
Keep believing that Israel doesn't hit civilians on purpose, its funny seeing people believe that.

Uh I just did explain it...in laymens term..so I don't know how you'd read over that point.

Sounds like you just wanted to interject and quoted me so you can hear yourself talk.

But I'm sure you have the answer to it all.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: Fern
Lot of 'stupid' in this thread.

The Israeli's displaced by their own forces had no cause to burn the Palestinians olive orchards. They should be held accountable and be forced to make restitution too.

Bashing Christians is stupid, they've got nothing to do with any of this, including posts here you don't like.

Fern

Yes, definitely uncalled for to take your own frustrations out on the Olive groves.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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According to Israeli propaganda, there are 10,000 people in irrational settler parties always driving Israeli politics.

When in fact there are some 240,000 or better Israeli settlers now living in established settlements on the West Bank. And we have to remember that the West Bank, may be now administered by Israel since the 1967 war, but in no way does the West Bank belong to Israel.

But it sure sounds like there is an endless conveyor belt of of 10,000 nutty Israel settlers, who soon get West Bank land, they somehow become rational, and another new set of 10,000 nuts who can't settle in crowded Israel join them eager to displace the legitimate Arab owners.

Its official US policy that Israel stop ALL West Bank settlements, Israel refuses, but just to placate a little, they demolish
one illegal settlement. And when the displaced settlers retaliate on the innocent Arabs by burning their Olive trees, Israel claims, oh its just a few bad apples we are not responsible for, yet let one Arab or Palestinian cast a stone back at Israel, and we are talking the collective guilt of all Arabs and Palestinians.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
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Originally posted by: irishScott
The whole situation is simply caused by stupidity on both sides. The Palestinians had their chance back in 2000, to which Arafat stupidly refused on the grounds:"the Arab leader who would surrender Jerusalem is not born yet". A year later, suicide bomber attacks hit Israel. And this is the man who won the nobel peace prize. :roll:

There are plenty of examples of Israeli stupidity as well, mainly that they seem to think building settlements is actually going to solve something. Last I checked Hamas was legitimately elected as the leadership of Gaza. Does that tell you how desperate these people are? Islam in general doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to surrendering. Let alone fanatical militant Islam. The more the Israelis pressure the Palestinians, the more desperate they'll get, the more militant they'll get, and it'll get to the point where Israel will basically have to wipe Gaza off the map to stop said attacks. The only way this will stop is a simultaneous stand-down. Good luck with that. :roll:

As for the collateral damage inflicted by the Israelis, it's actually quite impressive that they've inflicted as little as they have. Hamas deploying their militants around civilian targets notwithstanding, the Gaza strip has a population density of 10,665/sq mi That's 5x my county's density, and I live in a DC suburb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

While I also entirely agree that both sides have fucked up hard, to blame 2000 on Arafat is not telling the truth:

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
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Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Fern
Lot of 'stupid' in this thread.

The Israeli's displaced by their own forces had no cause to burn the Palestinians olive orchards. They should be held accountable and be forced to make restitution too.

Bashing Christians is stupid, they've got nothing to do with any of this, including posts here you don't like.

Fern

Yes, definitely uncalled for to take your own frustrations out on the Olive groves.

This isn't the only time either - these aren't isolated incidents. They are springing up constantly across the west bank. Cut trees, burned farmland, incessant attacking and nagging the Palestinians on their land, violence upon Peace Groups. From the websites of the peacegroups that I focus on, these types of attacks are getting more commonplace and have most definitely stepped up in the past year.

Of course the IDF is doing their job to assist the settlers.
http://www.youtube.com/v/rEkvW...en&fs=1&rel=0&border=1

Want to hear the basic tactic (comes from the video)? Have settlers move in. The IDF follows. Settlers engage in violence against the Palestinians - usually by attacking where they farm. IDF does nothing. Peace Groups will come in to assist/join Palestinians farm their land. IDF declares the area a closed military zone -- arrests peace activists for being there. Palestinians are left helpless in the face of the Settlers who have their army on their side. Peace activists are released in a few hours so the case never goes to court, because the IDF already knows that what it is doing is not legal (even to the Israeli Supreme Court).



Of course, the ultimate job of people like lupi, Js80, etc. is to FUD FUD FUD - like saying that groups like Hamas aren't interested in any peace. Or saying that 'if you lose war its okay to get ethnically cleansed'. Those with the voice of reason, and not even reason - just pointing out the obvious, seem to get shut off. And this happens in the Israel Govt as well:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1101394.html
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu silenced Shin Bet security service head Yuval Diskin as Diskin was making a presentation during Sunday's cabinet meeting on intelligence matters, []bwhich included references to Palestinian attitudes to Israel and the possible renewal of the peace process.[/b]

Diskin told the cabinet Hamas rhetoric had changed somewhat in recent weeks. "Public statements by leaders attest to efforts by Hamas to appear interested in ending the conflict with Israel, based on the model of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders in exchange for a long-term hudnah [cease-fire]," Diskin said before Netanyahu silenced him. "This doesn't mean they have abandoned ideological principles. Hamas is turning to the diplomatic sphere to challenge exclusive control by Abu Mazen," Diskin said, refering to PA President Mahmoud Abbas.

http://english.aljazeera.net/n...09625181357331518.html
And we can see those calls right here:
At the same time, Khaled Meshaal has endorsed the idea of a two-state solution, accepting the creation of a Palestinian state within 1967 borders, with East Jerusalem as its capital.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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This forum is solidly in the "Pro Israel" column. Take this non-news elsewhere. :roll:
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: magomago
-snip-This isn't the only time either - these aren't isolated incidents. They are springing up constantly across the west bank. Cut trees, burned farmland, incessant attacking and nagging the Palestinians on their land, violence upon Peace Groups. From the websites of the peacegroups that I focus on, these types of attacks are getting more commonplace and have most definitely stepped up in the past year.

Honest question - Who, or what, is the 'police force' that's to suppose to handle stuff like this?

If I'm a Palestinian and a bunch of a-holes are riding through my orchard setting it on fire, who answers my 911 call?

I find it hard (well, almost) to believe such basic stuff as this hasn't been handled/addressed a long time ago. I mean what's the freakin point of 'peace negotiations' if fundamnetal stuff like this hasn't already been resolved?

Fern
 

SheriffA00

Member
Jul 21, 2009
39
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I am Palestinian! My father was fortunate enough to receive scholar ships in America so I can have a better life! What about my Parents life? What about the lives of the millions of other Palestinians? Why doesn't Israel listen to what the entire world has deemed illegal and remove all the settlements including the ones in Syria and revert back to the pre 1967 borders?

Anyone who is not a believer in the Pro Palestinian movement needs to go Palestine. Go to Gaza and go to Nablus. Spend a couple days and see how they live. No rights, not even water. People should really be asking themselves why Palestinians can't have water?
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
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Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Why doesn't this get any attention?

Probably because the olive trees didn't have friends and families or scream in terror as some assholes killed them despite their civilian status. You know, like human victims of suicide bombers do.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: TruePaige
In response to the first article..

"The rest of his family and friends are trapped in the middle of the bloody conflict triggered when Hamas fired rockets at Israel on December 27."
That isn't how it went down, but rather Hamas had been firing rockets on November 4th, after Israel broke the cease-fire by killing a half dozen Hamas members. See here.

Originally posted by: TruePaige
STOP FIRING ROCKETS!
They tired that, and it didn't work out well for them.

Originally posted by: TruePaige
The second one claims a "media conspiracy" and is a completely biased source, with ranting and raving about how bad they have it.
The article doesn't make any claims of conspiracy, and was written by two Jewish guys who don't have it bad at all, but rather have compassion to stand up for those who do. If you want to see real bias, check a mirror.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Originally posted by: SheriffA00
I am Palestinian! My father was fortunate enough to receive scholar ships in America so I can have a better life! What about my Parents life? What about the lives of the millions of other Palestinians? Why doesn't Israel listen to what the entire world has deemed illegal and remove all the settlements including the ones in Syria and revert back to the pre 1967 borders?

Anyone who is not a believer in the Pro Palestinian movement needs to go Palestine. Go to Gaza and go to Nablus. Spend a couple days and see how they live. No rights, not even water. People should really be asking themselves why Palestinians can't have water?

One problem from Israel's POV is for the past 60+ years, the world has been against Israel and for the most part, supported her opponents.
So what the world wants/demands is secondary to what Israel wants and is able to do.
And the world is not going to be able to FORCE Israel to do something that she feels is harmful to her. Some cohersion may work as long as it is a steady, continuous leverage and there are not external forces attempting to take advantage of the leverage.

Some of the settlements are a negotiating tool - others are not.
The issue of Jerusalem being under control of the Palestinians is a great concern.

 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: Nebor

This forum is solidly in the "Pro Israel" column. Take this non-news elsewhere. :roll:

Based on the replies in this thread, you're reading challenged if you believe that. ALL Isrealis/Palestinians are not angels, and ALL Palestinians/Isrealis are not devils. There have been more than enough blind, hateful, inhuman attrocities committed by both sides. Both sides claim their crimes are committed in the name of dumbass deities, but the truth is, it's all in the name of political power, and every bit of it betrays the underlying human truths taught by their respective faiths.

Then, we have perverted turd side show freaks like lupi who have nothing to say and squander far too many words polluting the forums with their irrelevant hate for their own amusement. :thumbsdown: :|
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
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Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Why doesn't this get any attention?

Probably because the olive trees didn't have friends and families or scream in terror as some assholes killed them despite their civilian status. You know, like human victims of suicide bombers do.
Has there been some recent outbreak of suicide bombings I've missed, or are you living in the past here?

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
One problem from Israel's POV is for the past 60+ years, the world has been against Israel and for the most part, supported her opponents.
If that POV had any basis in reality, Israel would never been allowed to exist in the first place, or would have been dismantled long since then. In fact, the world isn't against Israel itself, but rather only it's ethnic cleansing of the region which started in 1947, and it's ongoing disregard for Palestinian rights and militant denial of Palestinian sovereignty since then. And even while taking issue with such actions, the vast majority of the world has been treating Israel with kid gloves, particularly the US.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: magomago
-snip-This isn't the only time either - these aren't isolated incidents. They are springing up constantly across the west bank. Cut trees, burned farmland, incessant attacking and nagging the Palestinians on their land, violence upon Peace Groups. From the websites of the peacegroups that I focus on, these types of attacks are getting more commonplace and have most definitely stepped up in the past year.

Honest question - Who, or what, is the 'police force' that's to suppose to handle stuff like this?

If I'm a Palestinian and a bunch of a-holes are riding through my orchard setting it on fire, who answers my 911 call?

I find it hard (well, almost) to believe such basic stuff as this hasn't been handled/addressed a long time ago. I mean what's the freakin point of 'peace negotiations' if fundamnetal stuff like this hasn't already been resolved?

Fern

See I believe that, atleast for the past 10 years (I honestly can't claim to know the details earlier. It seems, at one point, that Rabin actually tried to pursue peace, but we all know that didn't get very far. ) the "Peace Process" is just a method to stall, delay, stall stall, delay, while more and more Palestinian land is stolen. Things like uprooting orchards, burning crops, etc. is really about intimidation tactics to try to get people to leave their land.

To answer your question - II would assume that this is taken care of by the Fourth Geneva Convention. I'm not well versed in this specific lingo (simply because I think it is self evident that there is something fishy going on)
But let us assume that it doesn't cover the 4th geneva convention, and that you could bring in a native population to colonize and terrorize an indigenous population. In that case, the Israeli Courts have already dealt with this question:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1094289.html
Zonszein said the soldiers' actions contradict a High Court ruling from 2006 stating that soldiers must protect Palestinians while they work their land.

You can actually watch video recorded from the incident referred to in this video.

http://www.philipweiss.org/mon...-settlers-instead.html

. Ta'ayush went with about thirty Israeli and international peace activists to help the farmers of Safa work their land. As soon as we arrived we were attacked by settlers throwing rocks at us. Then the IDF came and arrested 7 activists and did not so much as ask the settlers to leave. The activists were later released because the soldiers had violated a Supreme Court ruling from 2006 that states that the IDF must protect the farmers of Safa from settler violence. But the damage was done.


Again, do not think that I'm lambasting Israel as a whole. What is perpetuating this conflict are: a) Settlers b) IDF (who loves to ignore the Supreme Court) and c) Israeli Governments.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Originally posted by: Fern
Honest question - Who, or what, is the 'police force' that's to suppose to handle stuff like this?

If I'm a Palestinian and a bunch of a-holes are riding through my orchard setting it on fire, who answers my 911 call?
It is up to the Israeli military and boarder police, who generally try to avoid confrontation with the settlers and often only show up to tell the Palestinians to leave.

Originally posted by: Fern
I find it hard (well, almost) to believe such basic stuff as this hasn't been handled/addressed a long time ago. I mean what's the freakin point of 'peace negotiations' if fundamnetal stuff like this hasn't already been resolved?
That is exactly the argument Hamas was founded on, and if we are ever to put an end to Hamas terrorism then we'll have to achieve a reasonable solution to this issue.