Israeli foreign minister: Redraw map to oust Arabs

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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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There was a civil war going on.

Both sides were guilty of issues.

There are statements by Arabs and Israeli historians that contradict each other as to whether the Palestinians were ordered/advised by the Arabs to leave.

So anyone can find evidence to back up their own claims.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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No, no one can find any actual evidence to support the nations that "Palestinians were ordered/advised by the Arabs to leave", which is why you are left waving your hands to claim such nonsense rather than actually posting sources.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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No, no one can find any actual evidence to support the nations that "Palestinians were ordered/advised by the Arabs to leave", which is why you are left waving your hands to claim such nonsense rather than actually posting sources.

When dealing with you I can see why nobody would care to post any sources.
When they post a legitimate source you will respond with a source from madmagazine.com claiming your source is more accurate..lol

So your also a jhhnn apologist......you have no clue what jhhnn was trying to say. Unless you are brothers..lol
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Rather, I'm aware of the fact that the Arab nations attacked the Israeli military forces who had already driven Palestinians from their homes and businesses

You cannot blame the government of Israel for things done prior to the creation of the government of Israel.

Also, I'm still wondering about your claim of "one village, and those who were responsible were punished for doing it" were you referring to previously. Again, what where you speaking of, specifically?

Honestly, I cannot find that information any more. I wish I could show which it was...and it very well might not have been part of the 48 war.

I have already retracted the one village part, and since I cannot find my support on punishment, I will retract that portion as well. Only right to do that, for without support, it is meaningless.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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You cannot blame the government of Israel for things done prior to the creation of the government of Israel.
Nor was I attempting to. Rather, I'm referring to the fact that it was Israeli military forces who were in the process of driving Palestinians from their homes and businesses prior the the Arab nations launching their attack on Israel. Of course prior to the creation of the state of Israel, those individuals who became the Israeli military were members of militias and terrorist groups, but I'm simply referring to what those people did here, not attempting to "blame the government of Israel" for anything.


Honestly, I cannot find that information any more. I wish I could show which it was...and it very well might not have been part of the 48 war.

I have already retracted the one village part, and since I cannot find my support on punishment, I will retract that portion as well. Only right to do that, for without support, it is meaningless.
I respect that, but it leaves me curious to know: has you new found understanding, the fact that many towns and villages were driven out by the Israeli military and the militias and terrors groups which preceded them, along with your inability of to support your presumption that the perpetrators of that ethnic clenching were punished, changed your general opinion on the conflict?

On a side note, a video just turned up yesterday relevant to the topic at hand.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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As another Israeli Palestinian discussion on this forum degenerates into meaningless discussions of past justifications, am I the only one on this thread who sees the foolishness of it?

It may just depend on whose side one is on, as people on one side of the other could happily read thick books for more than a human lifespan Just dealings in why Palestinians are rat finks and Israelis are angels, while the other side reads equally thick proving Israelis are rat finks and Palestinians are angels. In short there is more than enough blame on both sides to go around and two wrongs never add up to one right.

In short, no one can change a rather rotten past, or profitably trade one side's blame game for another. Which not only takes forever, especially in a nuclear armed world, because the only side that are winning are now are stateless terrorists.

Our other defect in stinking thinking is that one fine day, there will be a binary outcome, and that one side will totally win and the other side will totally lose. So either the Arabs and Palestinians will push all the Jews into the sea, or the Israelis will win, and somehow exterminate to the last man woman and child all Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, all 3.5-4.25 million of them. Just a little problem with that latter scenario, not only had Israel start building gas ovens, we must remember there are some 16 million remaining Palestinians living in Jordan, and other Arab states. Not to mention some 300 million people in Arab States that may then totally fear Israelis, but fear never inspires love or tolerance. Meaning those 300 million Arabs will likely fund Stateless terrorists to attack Israel with new and more deadly means. Chemical, radiological, and perhaps even nuclear weapons that will likely be deployed against Israel, and the one single winner theory may lead to a draw in the fulness of time. As Israel becomes so contaminated that no one can live in Israel for another 2000 years. No Arabs, no Palestinians, no Jews, no people period, not even insects, or even microbes.

Or we ALL can start to look to the future because a rotten past can't be changed. As we can look for a fair mid-east settlement and the Jewish people becoming an accepted and helpful team player in the community of mid-east nations.
 

LiuKangBakinPie

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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For the last time

There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and then especially after the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War! In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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No, no one can find any actual evidence to support the nations that "Palestinians were ordered/advised by the Arabs to leave", which is why you are left waving your hands to claim such nonsense rather than actually posting sources.

Series of quotes

Syrian Foeign Minister
Link

n 1973, Khaled al-&#8217;Azm, who served as Prime Minister of Syria in 1948 and 1949, published his memoirs in Beirut. He includes the following

We have brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees, by calling upon them and pleading with them to leave their lands, their homes, their work and their business, and we have caused them to be barren and unemployed though each one of them had been working and qualified in a trade from which he could make a living. In addition, we accustomed them to begging for hand-outs and to suffice with what little the UN organisation would allocate them.

Link

French, British and Arab Sources Confirm Arabs Were Not Driven Out

French, British and Arab sources alike confirm that the Arabs were not driven out of Palestine by the Jews. Rather, these sources establish that the fights were organized and continued at the behest of Arab leaders.

On April 7, 1949, the French representative on the U. N. Conciliation Commission told the Israel government that it would be wrong even by accounts of the refugees themselves to describe them as having been deliberately "driven out," and correct to describe them as having fled in the atmosphere of fear, insecurity and danger inseparable from war.

Discussing the Arab mass evacuation of Haifa, Sir Alexander Cadogan,British representative, on April 23, 1948, told the Security Council of the United Nations:

"During the past week there has been a tendency for Arabs to infiltrate into Haifa, and there were continuous Arab attacks on Jews during the four days preceding the Haganah offensive. It thus appears that the Arabs are those responsible for the latest developments in Haifa:'"

On October 2, 1948, an eye-witness of what happened in Haifa wrote in the London Economist:

". . . During the subsequent days the Israeli authorities who were now in complete control of Haifa urged all Arabs to remain . . . and guaranteed them protection and security. So far as I know, most of the British civilian residents whose advice was asked by Arab friends told the latter they would be wise to stay. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that by far the most potent of these factors were the announcements made over the sir by the Arab Higher Committee urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit.The reason given was that upon the final withdrawal of the British the combined armies of the Arab states would invade Palestine and drive the Jews into


p. 21 Who Is Responsible for the Flight of Arabs From Palestine?


the sea. It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."

Arabs Admit Responsibility for the Flight

On April 20, 1948, Jamal Husseini, Vice Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee, told the U. N. Security Council that "the Arabs would not submit to a truce but prefer to leave their homes."

On August 12, 1948, Glubb Pasha, the British commander of the Transjordan Arab Legion, in an article in The London Daily Mail, declared: "The Arab civil population panicked and fled ignominiously."

On September 6, 1948, Emile Ghory, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee and one of its representatives before the U. N., told the Beirut Telegraph:

"At the time of the first truce the number of Arab refugees was200,000. By the time the second truce began this number had risen to 300,000. It is impossible to foretell how many more refugees there will be if hostilities are renewed and there is a third truce. I do not want to impugn any one but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem."

Not All Arab Leaders for Flight

Not all Arab opinion supported the policy of the Arab High Command in ordering the flight.

On March 30, 1948, the Palestine Arab paper, As Sariah, declared:

"The inhabitants of the large village of Sheikh Mums and of several other Arab villages in the neighborhood of Tel Aviv have brought a terrible disgrace upon all of us by quitting their villages bag and baggage. We cannot help comparing this disgraceful exodus with the firm stand of the Haganah in all localities situated in Arab territory or bordering on it. But what is the use of making comparisons; everyone knows that the Haganah gladly enters the battle while we always flee from it."

On April 3, 1948, the Near East Arabic Radio said:

"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees to flee from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem, and that certain leaders have tried to make political capital out of their

p. 22. Who Is Responsible for the Flight of Arabs From Palestine?

miserable situation. The Arab states must not allow the future of the refugees to be sacrificed to make political capital out of their fate."

On June 30, 1948, Es Shaab, a Palestine Arab newspaper, called the deserters Fifth Columnists, declaring editorially:

"The first group of our Fifth Columnists are those who abandon their houses and business premises and go to live elsewhere. Many of these have lived in great comfort and luxury. At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels in order to escape sharing the burden of the struggle her directly or indirectly. The neighboring countries have rendered us a great disservice by admitting these fugitives from the battlefield. They are the worst type of our Fifth Column and deserve to be punished with the utmost severity."


On July 9, 1948, King Farouk, in a broadcast to the Arab world, expressed his dissatisfaction with the Palestine Arabs who ran away leaving their houses and lands and providing an opportunity for large Jewish immigration and putting Palestine, as he said, in danger of a Jewish majority.

On August 3, 1948, a Syrian radio broadcast from Damascus declared that the Arabs of Palestine:

". . . were responsible for the heavy losses of the armies in Palestine. They ran away in the face of a threat by a small minority and spent more time talking over their fears than fighting for their country:'

On August 13, 1948, the Lebanese newspaper, Beirut, quoted a memorandum of the Arab Higher Committee to Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, as follows:

"From the areas not dominated by the Jews, a large number of the population fled because they had no confidence in the military defense measures."

On August 16, 1948, the Lebanese paper, Saudi el-Jenub, quoted Monsignor George Hakim Greek Catholic Bishop of Haifa and Galilee, as stating that Arab statesmen had assured the refugees that their armies would annihilate the "Zionist gangs"in a short while and there was no cause to fear permanent exile.

On September 27, 1948, the Near East Arabic Radio attacked the Arab Higher Committee's record, declaring:

"It is besmirched by the flight of its leaders and their encouragement

p.23 Who Is Responsible for the Flightof Arabs From Palestine?

of the Arabs to leave their homes even though no previous arrangement had been made for their housing and resettlement."

On May 15, 1949, the Near East Arabic Radio broadcast the following statement :

"The Arab leaders and the Arab press and radio announced on May 15(1948) that the Jews were scared to death and would soon be thrown into the sea by the advancing Arab armies; but it was not long before opinions had to be changed as the Jews scored nothing but victories and the Arabs suffered nothing but defeats."

Recently, on June 8, 1951, the responsibility of Arab leadership for the Arab mass flight from Palestine was charged in an article in Al-Hoda, the Lebanese daily newspaper published in the United States.Written by the acting editor of the publication, Habib Issa, it declared:

"As soon as the British had publicly announced the time for their relinquishment of the mandate and their withdrawal from Palestine, the Arab League began holding meetings and calling conferences, and its general secretary, Abdul-Rahman Azzam Pasha, published numerous reports and declarations in which he assured the Arab peoples and all others that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel-Aviv (the virtual Jewish capital ) would be as simple as a military promenade for the Arab armies. Azzam Pasha's statements pointed out that armies were already on the frontiers and that all the millions that the Jews had spent on land and on economic development would surely be easy booty for the Arabs, since it would be a simple matter to throw the Jews to the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea."

"As the time for the British withdrawal grew nearer, the zeal of the Arab League was redoubled. Meetings and conferences took place almost daily and burning calls and appeals were issued. Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine, urging them to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring, brotherly states,lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

"The Palestinian Arabs had no choice but to obey the `advice' of the League and to believe what Azzam Pasha and other responsible men in the League told them-that their withdrawal from their lands and their country was only temporary and would end in a few days with the successful termination of the Arab `punishment' action against Israel.

"But victory was not to be the result of this `punishment' action.Victory is not produced by speeches, reports, and declarations. Victory


p.24 Who Is Responsible for the Flight of Arabs From Palestine?

is produced by cannons, airplanes,and tanks. The threats of the Arab League evaporated in the face of the preparedness, good command and superior generalship of the Zionist `gangs: We saw `the military promenade' become a crushing catastrophe that shattered the prestige of the League and its member states and exposed their inner weakness and deterioration.

"Azzam Pasha and the other responsible Arab leaders now try to excuse the defeat of the Arabs on the ground that their forces were inadequately armed, organized and trained. In the light of this, we should like to ask Aaam Pasha and his colleagues a simple question: `If the Arab armies lacked sufficient arms, organization and training, why did you throw them into a savage war against an enemy who had everything that modern wars require--equipment, good training, unity of command, expert officers who knew the arts of war and who had participated in two World Wars? And why did you jeopardize the lives of a million Palestine Arabs and make them wander from their homes? Since,as you say, the Arab armies were not adequately prepared for victory, did not the flight of the Arabs, urged by you, amount to the facilitation of Zionist victory?"

On August 19, 1951, the Lebanese newspaper, Kul-Shay, placed ther esponsibility for the flight of the Arab refugees on the Arab states and scored neglect of the problem, declaring:

"Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honour nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honour? The Arab States, and Lebanon amongst them, did it!

"Does not Lebanon share in the common responsibility for their fate?But when she is asked to shoulder the burden of the outcome of her participation in a political and military misadventure, some newspapers and certain groups hasten to foretell calamities and disasters.

"You are welcoming thousands of Kurd sand Assyrians as co-religionists and citizens; however you deny the right of those, in the expulsion,humiliation and poverty of whom you had a hand, to take refuge with you and to give you their energy, love, power and property."

There are still other references to the fact that the Arabs were not innocent in encouraging the locals to bail out until the Jews were defeated.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Evidence, man, you were claiming evidence previously. In the case of your claim that Palestinians left in response to calls from Arab leaders that would be something along the lines of radio transcripts, notices posted in newspapers, government documents, or the like. There isn't anything of the sort in what you presented, is there? From my skimming of your links and quotes, the closest you've come is a purported quote from some memoirs of Khaled al-&#8217;Azm which I've seen floating around before, but have yet to see anyone actually substantiate.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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For the last time

There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and then especially after the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War! In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel.
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As liuKang somehow asserts, when the Romans kicked out the Jews, the last Jew to leave Israel in 235 or so AD, turned off all the lights, and Israel still had a population of zero, when the first Russian Jews started turning back up in Israel the late 1880's. I think a few historians might point out Liu is lying.

But if we can't call the large gathering new population of people who moved into Israel while the Jews were gone for 1700 years Palestinians, what else do we call them? Maybe brand X or they who should be exterminated like cockroaches, surely only Israeli Jews have human rights, brand X people have none according to Liukang.

Maybe better yet, we should call Palestinians imaginary, imaginary people feel no pain because they don't exist, so when I kill millions of such Zylons in video games it elevates me as a human.

So pray tell LiuKang, if they are not Palestinians, what do we call them?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Evidence, man, you were claiming evidence previously. In the case of your claim that Palestinians left in response to calls from Arab leaders that would be something along the lines of radio transcripts, notices posted in newspapers, government documents, or the like. There isn't anything of the sort in what you presented, is there? From my skimming of your links and quotes, the closest you've come is a purported quote from some memoirs of Khaled al-’Azm which I've seen floating around before, but have yet to see anyone actually substantiate.

As expected. One of the links identifies publications and broadcasts.

That carries no weight for you. You expect to listen to the recorded broadcasts and see the hand written notes of a speech. The word pg a person that lived through it is not vslid even whem provided as testimony.

Just like asking for a copy of the peace treaty/truce between Hamas and Israel that was broken within 24 hours. But even though Hamas and other Arab leaders publicly stated that there was a treaty/truce, you would not accept bevsuse you did not see it published
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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As liuKang somehow asserts, when the Romans kicked out the Jews, the last Jew to leave Israel in 235 or so AD, turned off all the lights, and Israel still had a population of zero, when the first Russian Jews started turning back up in Israel the late 1880's. I think a few historians might point out Liu is lying.

This is untrue. You can keep saying it all you want, but saying it a lot does not make it true.

There have always been Jews in Eretz Yisrael...at least since Yehoshua began the initial conquering of the area, a few thousand years ago.

Remember, the difference between being wrong and telling a lie is that you know you are saying something untrue when you are lying. From here on out, if you continue to say the above info, you are lying.

Further relations between the Jews and the Roman Empire
Main articles: Jewish revolt against Gallus and Revolt against Heraclius
In 351–352 CE, the Jews launched yet another revolt, provoking once again heavy retribution.[16]

In 438 CE, when the Empress Eudocia removed the ban on Jews' praying at the Temple site, the heads of the Community in Galilee issued a call "to the great and mighty people of the Jews" which began: "Know that the end of the exile of our people has come!"[16][19]

During the 5th and the 6th centuries, a series of Samaritan insurrections broke out across the Palaestina Prima province. Especially violent were the third and the fourth revolts, which resulted in almost entire annihilation of the Samaritan community. It is likely that the 4th Samaritan Revolt was joined by the Jewish community, which had also suffered a brutal suppression of Israelite (Mosaic) religion.

In the belief of restoration to come, the Jews made an alliance with the Persians who invaded Palaestina Prima in 614, fought at their side, overwhelmed the Byzantine garrison in Jerusalem, and for five years governed the city.[16] However, their autonomy was brief: with the withdrawal of Persian forces, Jews surrendered to Byzantine forces in 625 CE and were consequently massacred by them in 629 CE. The Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) control of the region was finally lost to the Muslim Arab armies in 637 CE, when Umar ibn al-Khattab completed the conquest of Akko.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

Seems like Jews were still there in 629 AD. The Muslims did not manage to remove all the Jews either...but that is not relevant to show you are wrong with your assertion.
 

LiuKangBakinPie

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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bmand.gif

From 1517-1917 Turkey's Ottoman Empire controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain.

Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few indigenous Arabs there were or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!


transj.gif


In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75&#37; of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River"). This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-"Palestinian!" This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan would again be renamed "Jordan" in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now.

Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory west of the Jordan River launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.


1947mapa.gif

The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians.... thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [IDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations.
The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.

Palestinian Cousins started the '48 war, and in so doing released the warlike appetites of a nation of survivors, a Jewish people with no place to run, who had repressed their rage for millennia, and had now earned full title to it!

On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian Jews" finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 &#8211; perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them &#8211; never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs!

The remaining 30% either (1) saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or (2) were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the 19 month war ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."

The Arab propagandists and apologists almost never mentioned that in 1948, Arab armies launched a war against a one-day-old Israel. Instead he focused on the main consequence of that war: the creation of Arab refugees, stating that Israel "war of genocide" expelled 800,000 of them. This not only disagrees with UN estimates of a bit over 400,000 refugees but also ignores the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself!


1949mapa.gif

The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the 1947 United Nations Resolution 181. What remained of that almost-created second Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by (1) Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and by (2) Trans-Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and Jerusalem. In the next year (1950) Trans-Jordan formally merged this West Bank territory into itself and granted all those "Palestinian" Arabs living there Jordanian citizenship. Since Trans-Jordan was then no longer confined to one side of the Jordan River, it renamed itself simply "Jordan." In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of Palestine... called Jordan but in reality their ARAB "Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for "Palestine" would continue through four more wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon the Israeli citizenry. It continues to this very day.

From 1949-67 when all of Judea-Samaria [West Bank & Jerusalem] and Gaza ... were 100% under Arab [Jordanian & Egyptian] control, no effort was EVER made to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there. Surely you do not expect Israel to now provide these same Arabs with their own country when their fellow Arabs failed to do so! And isn't it curious how Arafat and his PLO (formed in 1964) discovered their "ancient" identity and a need for "self-determination" and "human dignity" on this very same West Bank ONLY AFTER Israel regained this territory (three years later in 1967) following Jordan's attempt attempt to destroy Israel! Why was no request ever made upon King Hussein of Jordan by the Arabs living on the West Bank when he occupied it? Is it logical that the PLO was formed in 1964 to regain the lands they would lose three years later in 1967? This sort of logic makes sense only to those who who have not learned that the PLO was formed to DESTROY Israel. And that is STILL their goal! A cosmetic name change from PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) to PA (Palestinian Authority) does not change the stripes on THIS tiger!


Pre-67.gif

Throughout much of May 1967, the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized along Israel's narrow and seemingly indefensible borders in preparation for a massive invasion to eliminate the State of Israel. The battle cry heard throughout the Arab world was then, as it continues to be... "Slaughter the Jews" and "Throw the Jews into the Sea!" But the Jews of Israel, remembering 2,000 years of being butchered, gassed, burned and skinned (eg. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Arab rampages of early Palestine and particularly the Holocaust), planned and executed a perfect pre-emptive strike against Egypt. Within two hours the Egyptian Air Force did not exist... most of its planes destroyed while still on the runways! Unaware that the Egyptians had no more air force, King Hussein of Jordan, launched his attack from the his West Bank into Israel's belly while Syrian troops prepared to descend down the Golan Heights high ground into northern Israel.

Now for some facts about "occupation." Firstly, the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians lost Gaza, the West Bank and Golan Heights (respectively) by participating in a failed attempt at genocide against the Children of Israel. Had Israel lost this 1967 defensive war, the Arab-Palestinians and their Arab allies would have raped, butchered or driven out every Israeli they could get their hands on and gobbled up all of Israel. Now, 35+ years later and despite the fact that Israel won a war BROUGHT UPON THEM, the Israelis are still willing to allow the Arab-Palestinians to have a state on much of the West Bank and Gaza if only they will stop sending their suicide/homicide bombers into the heart of Israel! (Talk about misplaced compassion!)

From 1948 to 1967, Egypt ruled Gaza, Syria ruled the Golan Heights, while Jordan ruled the West Bank. They could have set up independent Arab-Palestinian states in any or all of those territories, but they didn't even consider it. Instead, in 1967 they used the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West bank to launch a war that was unambiguously aimed at destroying Israel, which is how Israel came into possession of those territories in the first place.


1967mapb.gif

After ONLY six days of air, sea and hand-to-hand ground warfare, Israel defeated all three Arab armies along three separate fronts, capturing the entire Sinai Desert from Egypt, the 37mile x 12mile Syrian Golan Heights and the so-called "West Bank" (including East Jerusalem and its Old City) from Jordan. The God of Israel was surely watching over His children! Most importantly was the return to Israel of its holy 3,000 year old capital city of Jerusalem along the western edge of the West Bank... the same Jerusalem from which all Jews had been denied access for the 19 years (1948-1967) following Jordan's seizure and control over it following the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948-9.
Unfortunately, the world saw things differently and considered Israel an "occupier" (rather than a "capturer") of this disputed "West Bank" and the Gaza Strip along with the 850,000 Palestinian Arabs living there. These Arabs would refer to themselves as "refugees" and joined the masses of refugees from the first Arab-Israeli war of 1948-9. Once again Israel was forced to fight a battle for survival and, sadly, once again Palestinian [in reality, largely Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian] Arabs becoming refugees by their own actions, the actions of their leaders and from the actions of fellow Arabs from neighboring states!

Israel was responsible for bringing about some of its own problems. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were packed and ready to leave following their 1967 defeat. Suddenly the victorious one-eyed IDF General Moshe Dayan persuaded them to stay. This singular act stunned no one more than the Arab enemy himself who could not believe such an incredible manifestation of Jewish madness! After all, the Arabs knew what THEY would have done to the Jews if they had won! Dayan's plan was to educate them, offer them modern medical treatment, provide them with employment both in the West Bank, Gaza AND inside Israel Proper itself ... living amongst each other in hopes of building bridges to the Arab world. Israel is now paying dearly for this typically naive "Leftist" gesture. That "bridge" led to two Intifadas and world-wide Arab-Palestinian terrorism. From a frightened and defeated enemy, these "Palestinian" Arabs under Israel's jurisdiction turned into a confident, hateful and dangerous enemy now on their way toward forming a terrorist state determined to destroy Israel!

Note: When people say Jordan (first called Trans-Jordan) is an Arab-"Palestinian" State, they are correct! Jordan accounts for 3/4 of Palestine's original land mass. Though they may call themselves "Jordanians," they are culturally, ethnically, historically and religiously no different than the Arab-"Palestinians" on the "West Bank." Even the flag of Jordan and the flag of the proposed 2nd Arab-Palestinian state on the West Bank / Gaza look almost identical. So, if the Arab-Palestinians and Jordanians think of themselves as one and the same, why should WE fall for the lie that the Arab Palestinians west of the Jordan River are any different from the Jordanian Arabs on its eastern shore?
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Usually when one side starts a war and loses both the war AND some territory, no one on the planet would expect the winner to give back anything! This not only sounds preposterous, it IS preposterous! But the Jews (I hate to admit) had such an insane obsession of wanting the world to love them that they were willing to give back the entire Sinai Desert (oil fields, air bases and endless miles of security buffer) to Egypt for a piece of paper. Thus, in 1982 Egypt regained their Sinai and Israel lost a massive buffer against any future Egyptian aggression! Thus far, Egypt has not aggressed against Israel militarily; however, the basest, anti-Semitic vile to come out of Egypt is not unlike the worse of Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda! This 1982 Camp David Peace Accord has to be the coldest peace deal in history!
Israel still occupies Syria's Golan Heights which, prior to the 1967 war, had been by Syria used solely for terrorist incursions into and artillery bombardment upon Israel's northeastern settlements. The Golan should never be given back to Israel's most vicious enemy! And of course, Israel still "occupies" the West Bank with its ONE MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND and Gaza with its EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND "Palestinian" Arabs. Had Israel done to these Arabs what the Arabs would have done to the Jews had THEY won, she would have expelled these hostile Arabs and made it officially part of a Greater Israel! But by remaining an "occupier," Israel set herself up for a campaign of vicious propaganda, the scope and intensity of which the world has never before seen!

An Easy-to-Understand Website Showing the
20th Century Rebirth of Israel with Pictured in Maps... Click HERE

"Battleground: Fact & Fantasy in Palestine"
by Samuel Katz
Read that and get a clue. I know theres no winning. This will go on forever like the war in the middle east. I have explained enough. Argue whatever swear at my mom call me whatever I don't care. But I'm not going to argue with walking talking parasitic robots over a thing their own leader said was fabricated to use as propaganda. By the arrogant replies that singed the same old tune I take it that it worked very well.
So Cheers!

Oh
Israel first became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam! Seven hundred and twenty-six years later in 586 B.C.E. these first ancient Jews in the Land of Israel [Judea] were overrun and Israel's First Jewish Temple (on Jerusalem's Old City Temple Mount) was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel and also a Second Temple in Jerusalem upon the Temple Mount. Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the Arabs is preposterous!
 
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LiuKangBakinPie

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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As liuKang somehow asserts, when the Romans kicked out the Jews, the last Jew to leave Israel in 235 or so AD, turned off all the lights, and Israel still had a population of zero, when the first Russian Jews started turning back up in Israel the late 1880's. I think a few historians might point out Liu is lying.

But if we can't call the large gathering new population of people who moved into Israel while the Jews were gone for 1700 years Palestinians, what else do we call them? Maybe brand X or they who should be exterminated like cockroaches, surely only Israeli Jews have human rights, brand X people have none according to Liukang.

Maybe better yet, we should call Palestinians imaginary, imaginary people feel no pain because they don't exist, so when I kill millions of such Zylons in video games it elevates me as a human.

So pray tell LiuKang, if they are not Palestinians, what do we call them?

I did not say that. Read it who said that. Not a jew but PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein

Again PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said that. If you think his a jew and you dont know who the PLO is GTFO you wasting everyones time! Thank you
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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As expected. One of the links identifies publications and broadcasts.
If that is true, then how about you stop the handwaving and quote it? I'm not going to go hunting through pages of text looking for whatever you might claim is burred within one of them.

Just like asking for a copy of the peace treaty/truce between Hamas and Israel that was broken within 24 hours. But even though Hamas and other Arab leaders publicly stated that there was a treaty/truce, you would not accept bevsuse you did not see it published
I took no issue with the fact that Hamas and Israel had agreed to a truce. Rather, Common Courtesy made a claim about the terms of the truce which I found dubious, so I asked him for his source of those terms, and he was incapable to providing anything of the sort, much as you've been proving incapable of substantiating your claim that "Palestinians were ordered/advised by the Arabs to leave". Come on man, when and how did these purported orders and/or advancements actually take place, specifically? You don't have any actual knowledge of anything of the sort, do you? Of course you are not alone on this, I've seen countless people make the same claim, but not one capable of actually substantiating it.

There have always been Jews in Eretz Yisrael...at least since Yehoshua began the initial conquering of the area, a few thousand years ago.
The archeological evidence contradicts the Biblical tale of conquest, and rather suggests the Hebrew civilization arose out of the indigenous population, with the tale of Joshua's conquest being invented later as a sort of unifying national myth.

Seems like Jews were still there in 629 AD. The Muslims did not manage to remove all the Jews either...but that is not relevant to show you are wrong with your assertion.
Muslims never to remove tried Jews from the region. It was the Byzantines who (at least according to Eutychius, which that Wiki page unfortunately doesn't even note as the source) tried to remove the Jews from Palestine by massacring in 629, and the the Byzantines were Christians rather than Muslims. Later, European Christian crusaders expelled Jews along side Muslims when concurring the region, and Jews fought along side Muslims against the crusaders to take it back.

That said, the Eutychius story of Byzantines massacring Jews is dubious, and even if it is true, it's doubtful none manage to survive. Furthermore almost certainly some Jews managed to evade expulsion by the Crusaders. So I agree with your general argument that there has been a continual presence of Jews in the region. I don't agree with the implication that this gave European Jews any right to come conquer the place in the name of Jews the world over though, particularly in light of the fact that the Jews who had been living peacefully amongst Christians and Muslims in region wanted no part in any such scheme.
 
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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The archeological evidence contradicts the Biblical tale of conquest, and rather suggests the Hebrew civilization arose out of the indigenous population, with the tale of Joshua's conquest being invented later as a sort of unifying national myth.

With the problem being that ancient Hebrew was found written by slaves in Egyptian mines prior to the formation of Israel. Oh, and the Hewbrew name Joseph was found on an offiical government seal in Egypt, long before Israel was founded.


Muslims never to remove tried Jews from the region.

Agreed

So I agree with your general argument that there has been a continual presence of Jews in the region. I don't agree with the implication that this gave European Jews any right to come conquer the place in the name of Jews the world over though, particularly in light of the fact that the Jews who had been living peacefully amongst Christians and Muslims in region wanted no part in any such scheme.

Well, peacefully and being treated like second class citizens often happen at the same time...so I would not put a lot of stock into peaceful living.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Evidence, man, you were claiming evidence previously. In the case of your claim that Palestinians left in response to calls from Arab leaders that would be something along the lines of radio transcripts, notices posted in newspapers, government documents, or the like. There isn't anything of the sort in what you presented, is there? From my skimming of your links and quotes, the closest you've come is a purported quote from some memoirs of Khaled al-’Azm which I've seen floating around before, but have yet to see anyone actually substantiate.

First link provided
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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If there is any actual documentation in that link, or otherwise, to support your you're claim "Palestinians were ordered/advised by the Arabs to leave" rather just a bunch of quotes from people making the similar claims, please quote it here. If you can't actually quote anything of the sort, please stop the insistent handwaving and start coming to terms with the evidence I've provided to the contrary.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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If there is any actual documentation in that link, or otherwise, to support your you're claim "Palestinians were ordered/advised by the Arabs to leave" rather just a bunch of quotes from people making the similar claims, please quote it here. If you can't actually quote anything of the sort, please stop the insistent handwaving.

Wait...the ruler of Syria saying he was "calling upon them and pleading with them to leave their lands, their homes, their work and their business" is not good enough for you? What do you need Eagle to do, invent a time machine and take you back there so you can hear it yourself. Of course, unless you know Arabic you will still have no idea what was said...so that is not even good enough, eh?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Wait...the ruler of Syria saying he was "calling upon them and pleading with them to leave their lands, their homes, their work and their business" is not good enough for you?
You wait, that's supposedly a statement written in some memoirs of Khalid al-Azm, who was never "the ruler of Syria" by any stretch, but rather Prime Minster, which didn't even make him Head of State, as the President of the Syrian Republic held that title. Also note that at the time of the bulk of the Palestinian exodus, he wasn't Prime Minster at all, but rather ambassador to France.

That said, according to what Eagle quoted, the quote comes from from memoirs published in Beirut in 1973, but I've yet to find anyone capable of providing a title and publisher for this alleged book, along with the page number which the statement can be found. Such details are provided in a proper citation, but when I ask for such all I get in return is handwaving.

Of course, unless you know Arabic you will still have no idea what was said...so that is not even good enough, eh?
I don't know a lick of Arabic, but would happily settle for an authorized translation, and absent that I know how to use a multilingual dictionary to check a translation. Of course, you don't know if the alleged quote has any basis in reality at all, do you?

Regardless, for the sake of argument lets say the claims of the quote are legit, which would you say hold more weight; a statement from Syria's ambassador to France during the bulk of the Palestinian exodus published memoirs decades after the events, or the contemporary Israeli military document I presented in this post which contradicts him?
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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As I hinted at and asserted to earlier even when presented with absolute proof Kylebisme would not listen....

Sort of like his stance on the 9/11 towers and the math involved....

You ask for proof...you are given proof...you ignore the proof......that`s why it makes no sense to get into a discussion with you....in order to have a discussion both sides must be willing to listen.....
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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You wait, that's supposedly a statement written in some memoirs of Khalid al-Azm, who was never "the ruler of Syria" by any stretch, but rather Prime Minster, which didn't even make him Head of State, as the President of the Syrian Republic held that title. Also note that at the time of the bulk of the Palestinian exodus, he wasn't Prime Minster at all, but rather ambassador to France.

That said, according to what Eagle quoted, the quote comes from from memoirs published in Beirut in 1973, but I've yet to find anyone capable of providing a title and publisher for this alleged book, along with the page number which the statement can be found. Such details are provided in a proper citation, but when I ask for such all I get in return is handwaving.


I don't know a lick of Arabic, -- as such your pleading ignorant....typical!
but would happily settle for an authorized translation, -- so what you are saying is that you really will never agree that is an accurate translation because it`s not authorized ....so your still playing word games..lol...
I am Jewish -- I speak Hebrew and 6 other languages and I understand Arabic as well as several different dialects-- that translation is more accurate than you would care to believe...

and absent that I know how to use a multilingual dictionary to check a translation. Of course, you don't know if the alleged quote has any basis in reality at all, do you? -- that was already proven -- but you dismiss this quote because its a quote that makes you look like an idiot!

Regardless, for the sake of argument lets say the claims of the quote are legit, which would you say hold more weight; a statement from Syria's ambassador to France during the bulk of the Palestinian exodus published memoirs decades after the events, or the contemporary Israeli military document I presented in this post which contradicts him?

Of course the Syrian Ambassadors quote holds more weight...after all you expect people to listen and agree with your nonesense...when you refuse to achknowledge other peoples legitimate and authorized quotes..links....etc...
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Don't be a fool JediY, of course there are still Arab and Palestinian rat fink idiots and an equal number of Israeli rat finks and idiots.

As you pick, JediY, the Israeli side, and somehow think, if you can prove some Arab and Palestinians rat fink idiots still exist. it must therefore mean only the Israeli side is totally right.

When the question is turned around, its equally easy to prove, that if Israeli rat fink idiots still exist, therefore it proves that only Palestinians and Arabs are totally right and every single Israeli must be wrong.

With brains like that JediY, if your brain was dynamite, you would not be able to generate enough power to blow your own nose.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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I overlooked this post erlier:
With the problem being that ancient Hebrew was found written by slaves in Egyptian mines prior to the formation of Israel. Oh, and the Hewbrew name Joseph was found on an offiical government seal in Egypt, long before Israel was founded.
I can't say I've heard of ancient Hebrew in Egyptian mines, or the seal you mention. In regard to the former, perhaps you mean Proto-Sinaitic? Regardless, none of that posses a problem to my statement about the archeological record suggesting Hebrew culture arose from among the ingenious population rather than though the conquest described in the Bible.


Well, peacefully and being treated like second class citizens often happen at the same time...so I would not put a lot of stock into peaceful living.
What are you putting your stock in here exactly, do you have any notable historical examples to support your implication that the situation was less than peaceful? I mean of course minorities were discriminated against in the Ottoman Empire to raving extents throughout it's history, but generally far less than in Europe during the same time span. After all, that the harsh discrimination in Europe was what prompted early Zionists to seek refuge in the Palestine. And after that came British rule which actively worked to break down such systems of discrimination, while I'm sure you are aware that quite the oppose was going on in continental Europe during those years. And of course here in the US the civil rights movement didn't even get going until decades after the Zionists had run the British out of Palestine.


And while I usually just ignore JEDIYoda's posts, this one is just too good to pass up:

that translation is more accurate than you would care to believe...
So then, am I take it you are familiar with the original source and hence can provide a proper citation giving the name of the book, publisher and date of publication, and the page number for the quote? Or are you just blowing smoke here as you so often tend to do?
 
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Nor was I attempting to. Rather, I'm referring to the fact that it was Israeli military forces who were in the process of driving Palestinians from their homes and businesses prior the the Arab nations launching their attack on Israel. Of course prior to the creation of the state of Israel, those individuals who became the Israeli military were members of militias and terrorist groups, but I'm simply referring to what those people did here, not attempting to "blame the government of Israel" for anything.

Prior to the attack on Israel there were no Israeli forces. The Arabs launched their attack within 9 days of Israel declaring its independence.

That is what I am saying. Sure, there may have been atrocities committed during those 9 days, but that is not a lot of time, especially when so much has to be done with the restoration of a nation.



I respect that, but it leaves me curious to know: has you new found understanding, the fact that many towns and villages were driven out by the Israeli military and the militias and terrors groups which preceded them, along with your inability of to support your presumption that the perpetrators of that ethnic clenching were punished, changed your general opinion on the conflict?

No, it does not. Mostly because both sides were doing the same thing. Had the Arabs not launched a war to destroy Israel (which caused most of the Arabs to flee the area) and had not continued said attempt at destruction for the last 60 odd years, then I would.

The big thing that one has to remember is that war, especially back in the 40s (less so as time went on), was waged against civilians by all nations. WW2 ended in 1945 and it was full of the slaughter of civilians by all the major nations. Destroying, displacing, slaughtering civilians was the way war was carried out.

As time went on, the horror of this (due to the massive death toll of WW1 followed quickly by WW2) caused people to rethink how war should be fought. Technology allowed us to stop targetting entire cities and instead strike precise targets. Now, if 5 civilians are killed it is an atrocity, but a scant 70 years ago killing only 5 civilians was considered a failed attack.


On a side note, a video just turned up yesterday relevant to the topic at hand.

It is interesting that he cut out all the Jewish people who said they were born in Israel unless their parents/grandparents were not born in Israel and only included Arabs born in Israel. Wonder why he did that?

EDIT: As a note, that cop at the end was hot. :)
 
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