Israeli foreign minister: Redraw map to oust Arabs

[LiuKangBakinPie]

Citing worldnetdaily proves that you're an idiot.

I think your input just proved that.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

All you have to do is click the links in my post to find the documents proving the use of the term "Palestinian" to refer to refer to all citizens of the British Mandate of Palestine, both Jewish and otherwise, decades before you claimed. As for the fact that Palestinians are at least partially descended from people who have been living there as far as recorded history goes back, all you have to do is look at the utter lack of any actual historical record any mass immigration to the region other than that of Jews beginning in the late 19th century
to see that, though Wikipedia provides a reasonable overview of DNA and genetic studies which further prove as much.


Nonsense, as evidenced by the fact that Aristotle referred to the region as what translates from Greek to "Palestine" nearly half a millennium before that, and there are much earlier examples from Syrian and Egyptian texts, though none that I've been able to find online. Again I'm compelled to ask where you such a distorted view of history from, as it doesn't seem like you've made any effort to seek out objective sources.

Very often one hears the revisionists and propagandists finding ancient historical links between the "Philistines" ("Invaders" in Hebrew) and the Arab "Palestinians." There is no truth to this claim! The Philistines were one of a number of Sea Peoples who reached the eastern Mediterranean region approximately 1250-1100 B.C.E. They were actually an amalgamation of various ethnic groups, primarily of Aegean and south-east European origin [Greece, Crete and Western Turkey] and they died out over 2500 years ago! Those Philistines were not Arab... and neither was Goliath! The Arabs of "Palestine" are just that... Arabs! And these Arabs of "Palestine" have about as much historical roots to the ancient Philistines as Yasser Arafat has to the Eskimos!

The ancient, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine are long perished from the earth. Canaanites, Phoencians, and then Philistines, all were dominated by the Israelites before 1060 B.C.E. Most of these cultural identities dissolved completely by the neo-Babylonian age, or, the 6th century B.C.E. Arabs weren’t even in Palestine until the mid-7th century C.E., over a thousand years later, after Palestine’s 1,300-year Jewish history. Arabs later living in Palestine never developed themselves or the land, but remained nomadic and quasi-primitive

Even the word "Palestine" has no meaning in Arabic - every word in Arabic has some meaning deriving from the Koran, but the word "Palestine" does not. If anything, the name "Palestine" was associated with Jews. In the years leading up to the rebirth of Israel in 1948, those who spoke of "Palestinians" were nearly always referring to the region's Jewish residents. For example, the "Palestine Post" [forerunner of today's Jerusalem Post] newspaper and the Palestine Symphony Orchestra were all-Jewish. The "Palestine Brigade Regiment" was composed exclusively of Jewish volunteers in the British World War II Army.
In fact, Arab leaders rejected the notion of a unique "Palestinian Arab" identity, insisting that Palestine was merely a part of "Greater Syria."

Another myth deals with the issue of Jerusalem and its Temple Mount. The myth is that Jerusalem is really an Arab city and that it is a central focus of Islam. The truth is that the Arabs expressed very limited interest in the Temple Mount before 1967 after the Six-Day War. Besides, Mecca and Medina (both in Saudi Arabia) are Islam's holiest cities!

Islam's Holy Koran mentions Mecca 2 or 3 (implied, but not actually written) times. It mentions Medina 5 times. It never mentions Jerusalem and with good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammad ever visited Jerusalem! And if he did visit Jerusalem, it could not have been until 6 years after his death. Therefore, the notion that Mohammed ascended to Heaven from a rock in Jerusalem (today's Dome of the Rock) is even more ridiculous!

One more thing about Jerusalem in general and its Temple Mount in particular. Jerusalem appears in the Jewish Bible 669 times and Zion (which usually means Jerusalem, sometimes the Land of Israel) 154 times, or 823 times in all. The Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem 154 times and Zion 7 times. All told, in the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) and the New Testament, the terms "Judah" or "Judea" appear 877 times, and "Samaria" is used on 123 occasions.

It gets even better. Upon closer look at their Holy Koran, they have uncovered something quite amazing. These Muslims may actually be more Jewish than Muslim! Get this... the Koran mentions "Israel" [or "Israelites"] 47 times, "Jew" or "Jewish" 26 times! Even "Christian" or "Christians" gets 15 mentions!

The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The national coins, the pottery, the cities, the ancient Hebrew texts... all support this claim. Yes, other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continual presence in that land for over 3,000 years. This predates and certain dwarfs any claims that other peoples in the regions may have. The ancient Philistines are extinct. Many other ancient peoples are extinct. They do not have the unbroken line to this date that the Jews have.

the myth of a "Palestinian People."
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/meaning.html

Audio
http://www.masada2000.org/JTF-11242004-No Palestine-No Palestinian People.mp3

You call this unfound evidence???

In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel.

Out of the horses mouth!!!!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Both sides want something the other finds completely objectionable. What the OP fails to point out is that the other side object to the Israeli plan AND wants them to shrink to the suicidal borders of pre-1967. So here's a compromise. Israel retains it's current borders and doesn't remove Arab citizens.

This is the same old posturing on both sides which guarantees the status quo. That's why decades ago this was called the "peace process" the value of which was in preventing full scale war. Forty years ago we didn't have internet forums, but we had very similar debates and will probably be doing so in forty more, assuming that the region doesn't go nuclear.

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of Israeli politics and finally getting a Palestinian state, is right now, greatly complicated by Netanyuhu.

Which why I think the following link is instructive.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-spec...ppy-new-math-subtract-newt-add-romney-1.40653

And maybe the telling phrase is, for Netanyuhu, is that in his position at the top, " The smile ( of Netanyuhu ) knows. From here, there is nowhere left to go but down. "

"Netanyahu's government rests on keeping his friends close and Avigdor Lieberman closer. But the foreign minister's crucial 15-strong faction - on a good day a diplomatic albatross of racism and the Zionism of Nastiness - could implode entirely if Lieberman is
indicted for fraud and a range of other allegations.

Shorn of Lieberman's lockstep votes, Netanyahu would command a paltry 51 of the Knesset's 120 seats."

And the date of that Lieberman hearing is in exactly one week, "A hearing that could affect the future of Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition government has been set for January 17-18.

In April Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein informed Lieberman of his intention to authorize an indictment, pending a hearing, on fraud, breach of trust, asset laundering and witness tampering."

A full week ahead of the 1/26/2012 Quartet deadline expiring at which point Abbas will likely take his case to the UN general Assembly.

Of course, the Palestinian side have their own problems, the on again and off again, and the on again off again reunification between Fatah and Hamas, leaves the Palestinian side almost as divided as the Israeli side.

As for me I will make no real predictions, but will 2012 be the year, when 63 years of unbroken Israeli world favor finally unravels? And the Palestinian state also called for by the UN in 1948 finally comes into existence?

 

[EagleKeeper]

As for me I will make no real predictions, but will 2012 be the year, when 63 years of unbroken Israeli world favor finally unravels? And the Palestinian state also called for by the UN in 1948 finally comes into existence?

I thought 2011 was supposed to be the tipping point. :whiste:

And where did the UN ever call for a Palestinian state in '48?

 

[Lemon law]

I thought 2011 was supposed to be the tipping point. :whiste:

And where did the UN ever call for a Palestinian state in '48?

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You might find your answer here EK, because it certainly was part of the Truman vision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine#Partition_of_Palestine_.281948.29

 

[cybrsage]

The Romans renaimed Judeah and Samaria as Palestine as a way to try and crush the continuously rebelling Jews. The Jews started rebelling when the Romans started to say they had to worship the Roman rulers as gods.

EDIT: Just noticed LiuKangBakinPie already said this.

 

[ichy]

As if something that happened 2000 years ago has any bearing on today.

 

[Lemon law]

The Romans renaimed Judeah and Samaria as Palestine as a way to try and crush the continuously rebelling Jews. The Jews started rebelling when the Romans started to say they had to worship the Roman rulers as gods.

EDIT: Just noticed LiuKangBakinPie already said this.

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Maybe you got a point here ctbrsage, But the we have to ask two questions given the fact that The Jewish people left Israel circa 200 AD and did not dare even come back until about 1900 AD, they were MIA for some 1700 years.

So we have to ask two questions about why Israel should belong to only Jews today.

(1) Circa 3000 BC, there were no Jewish people populating Israel, but when the Jews came, they kicked out the original population. Should not that original population have a greater claim to present day Israel?

(2) When the Palestinians left their homes in 1948 Israel, some were forced out at the point of Israeli guns, other fled their homes to avoid being at ground zero in a clash of Arab Israeli armies along with their Jewish neighbors, and after being absent from their homes, for days, months, or years, the State of Israel welcomed Jews back but denied that same right of return to Palestinians. Yet somehow, Jews have a right of return good for 1700 years, yet Palestinian rights crap out in just a few days????????????????????

 

[senseamp]

I am shocked, shocked I tell ya.

 

[JEDIYoda]

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Maybe you got a point here ctbrsage, But the we have to ask two questions given the fact that The Jewish people left Israel circa 200 AD and did not dare even come back until about 1900 AD, they were MIA for some 1700 years.

So we have to ask two questions about why Israel should belong to only Jews today.

(1) Circa 3000 BC, there were no Jewish people populating Israel, but when the Jews came, they kicked out the original population. Should not that original population have a greater claim to present day Israel?

(2) When the Palestinians left their homes in 1948 Israel, some were forced out at the point of Israeli guns, other fled their homes to avoid being at ground zero in a clash of Arab Israeli armies along with their Jewish neighbors, and after being absent from their homes, for days, months, or years, the State of Israel welcomed Jews back but denied that same right of return to Palestinians. Yet somehow, Jews have a right of return good for 1700 years, yet Palestinian rights crap out in just a few days????????????????????

So your playing the ole right of return card.....rofl......talk about needing an accurate history lesson....

 

[cybrsage]

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Maybe you got a point here ctbrsage, But the we have to ask two questions given the fact that The Jewish people left Israel circa 200 AD and did not dare even come back until about 1900 AD, they were MIA for some 1700 years.

They were forcibly removed by the Romans...but there were always Jewish communities in the area.

So we have to ask two questions about why Israel should belong to only Jews today.

(1) Circa 3000 BC, there were no Jewish people populating Israel, but when the Jews came, they kicked out the original population. Should not that original population have a greater claim to present day Israel?

Not true, there were Jews living in the region from the moment they conquered it after leaving Egypt until today. Even both the Babylonians and the Assyrians left a remnant of Jews in the area. The Romans left a remnant as well.

(2) When the Palestinians left their homes in 1948 Israel, some were forced out at the point of Israeli guns, other fled their homes to avoid being at ground zero in a clash of Arab Israeli armies along with their Jewish neighbors, and after being absent from their homes, for days, months, or years, the State of Israel welcomed Jews back but denied that same right of return to Palestinians. Yet somehow, Jews have a right of return good for 1700 years, yet Palestinian rights crap out in just a few days????????????????????

Very few were actually forced out. It was only one village, and those who were responsible were punished for doing it. That is one of the major differences between Israel and the surrounding Arab nations. Almost every Arab who fled did so because the other Arabs were dropping explosives onto their homes and places of work.

Aliyah has been a basic right of Jews since the first yerida forced upon the Jews by the Babylonians. It is nothing new...it has been around for over 2400 years. The Assyrians allowed the first aliyah in 538 BC (they owned the area during that time). From that point on, all Jews have had the right to return to Eretz Israel. It is a long term tradition of Israel.

 

[EagleKeeper]

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You might find your answer here EK, because it certainly was part of the Truman vision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine#Partition_of_Palestine_.281948.29

My fault.

It was the Arabs themselves that rejected a Palestinian state:whiste:

The Partition Plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but rejected by the Arab leaders.

What changed their minds - the inability to destroy the Jewish state?

 

[cybrsage]

My fault.

It was the Arabs themselves that rejected a Palestinian state:whiste:


What changed their minds - the inability to destroy the Jewish state?

There is an old story with a moral to it.

A man was crossing the desert with his camel. Deserts get cold at night, so the man setup a small tent to help him stay warm and went inside to sleep the night.
During the night, the camel stuck his face into the tent and said "It is very cold outside, can I come into your tent to get warm?"
Now, camels are fobidden from being in a tent with people, so the man obviously said no. "No, you cannot, it is forbidden."
"How about just my nose, if I can warm my nose, the rest of my body will not feel so cold."
Hmm....the man thought, that is not much of a request. I am a caring guy, so why not. "Yes, you may put your nose in the tent, but no more."
"Thank you so much" said the camel.
An hour later, the man noticed the camel's entire head was in the tent. "Camel, I said just your nose, not your entire head!"
"I am sorry, sir. It was hard to keep just my nose in the tent, the wind kept moving the tent, so I slipped my entire head in to prevent a breeze from entering your tent and chilling you."
The camel was only thinking of me, the man thought to himself. "Ok, just your head, but no more." The man went back to sleep.
A few hours later, after a few more discussions with the camel, and the man found himself out in the cold, not able to fit in his tent because the entire camel was in the tent and took up the entire thing. The man was very cold all night.

The Arabs, after losing their many wars, have realized the way to beat Israel is to become the camel and hope they become the man.

 

[kylebisme]

Very often one hears the revisionists and propagandists...

It seems you've heard little but revisionism and propaganda from ardent Zionists, and have been swallowing it up like a fish drinking water. All you have to do is check with any historian of the region who isn't swayed personal stake in the matter to find that what I've said here is completely true, while what you've been preaching is largely lies. However, judging by the sources you cite, it seems you've got absolutely no interest in seeking objectivity in this, do you?

 

[JEDIYoda]

It seems you've heard little but revisionism and propaganda from ardent Zionists, and have been swallowing it up like a fish drinking water. All you have to do is check with any historian of the region who isn't swayed personal stake in the matter to find that what I've said here is completely true, --- sorry that is not true at all!!

while what you've been preaching is largely lies. --actually what he has been preaching is the truth!! You my friend are the one who honestly believes that just because you can find somebody somewhere to back your mis-guided diatribe that you must be correct...lol

However, judging by the sources you cite, it seems you've got absolutely no interest in seeking objectivity in this, do you?-- and your sources are better? How? Why? Oh, I get it because you found links that are unbiased and in your eyes support all your babble??

So why don`t you start a Palestinian conspiracy threrad......lol

 

[cybrsage]

As if something that happened 2000 years ago has any bearing on today.

You have apparently never heard of Christianity, which started roughly 2000 years ago and has a very powerful bearing on the happenings of today.

 

[Lemon law]

You have apparently never heard of Christianity, which started roughly 2000 years ago and has a very powerful bearing on the happenings of today.

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What a foolish thing to say cybrsage, in the entire 2000 history of Christianity, by in large, Christians have regarded Jews as Christ killers beyond any redemption.

The only thing that maybe changes that world view is the recent fad of the rapture which has experienced a certain revival in the last 30 years. Nor should any rational Jews take any comfort in the rapture myth. As Jews are regarded as a temporary and necessary ingredient
to trigger the second coming of Jesus, after which ole Jesus will dope slap the Muslims and Jews equally. As only true Christians will ascend into heaven on judgment day, as Jews will go back to the people GOD still truly hates.

Meanwhile those rapture folks need the Jews to do their duty and cause that war at Armageddon, after which, the Jews will also get their overdue just deserts.

Of course I don't believe in the rapture myth, but if you do cybrsage, at least understand the full extent of the turd you are endorsing.

 

[Karl Agathon]

its all Bozo Netanyahus fault!!! :awe:

 

[Jhhnn]

Very few were actually forced out. It was only one village, and those who were responsible were punished for doing it. That is one of the major differences between Israel and the surrounding Arab nations. Almost every Arab who fled did so because the other Arabs were dropping explosives onto their homes and places of work.

Pure propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

 

[cybrsage]

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What a foolish thing to say cybrsage, in the entire 2000 history of Christianity, by in large, Christians have regarded Jews as Christ killers beyond any redemption.

You are reading way too much into it. He said that things which are 2000 years old have no bearing on today's world. I simply showed something that is 2000 years old which also has a huge bearing on today's world.

Nothing more than that, simply showing that the age of something is not an indicator of its relevance.

 

[cybrsage]

Pure propaganda.

Lets look over your articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks[/quote]

This one happened before Israel came into existance. Cannot blame the government of Israel for things done prior to its existance. If you do, then you can blame the US for things England did prior to the Revolutionary War. Yeah, pretty dumb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

This one happened before Israel came into existance too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

The only one which talks about things after Israel came into existance. One out of three is not bad...wait, yes it is.

So, reading over the article, I have to admit I did not realize there was more than one expulsion. Other than that, I was correct, they fled due to the Arabs bombing their homes. From YOUR link:

Morris’s ‘Four Waves’ analysis
In The Irish Times of February 2008, Benny Morris summarized his analysis as follows: "Most of Palestine's 700,000 'refugees' fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops."[121]

 

[kylebisme]

Cannot blame the government of Israel for things done prior to its existance.

Jhhnn wasn't attempting to "blame the government of Israel", he was responding to your fanciful claims about "Almost every Arab who fled" by pointing out the actual reasons Palestinians fled their homeland.

Other than that, I was correct, they fled due to the Arabs bombing their homes. From YOUR link:

There's no mention of Arab bombings in what you quoted from Jhhnn's link, the vauge phrase "flail of war" is the only thing which even comes close, but what Morris is refering to there is further explained here:

A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948" was dated June 30, 1948 and became widely known around 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

1. Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
2. The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements...... (... especially -the fall of large neighbouring centers).
3. Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]

...

Follow the link for the rest of the list, and note that nothing along the lines of "the other Arabs were dropping explosives onto their homes and places of work" is featured anywhere on it. So Cybersage, where did you get that notion from? Also, what case of "one village, and those who were responsible were punished for doing it" were you referring to? Please share your sources.

 

[cybrsage]

Jhhnn wasn't attempting to "blame the government of Israel", he was responding to your fanciful claims about "Almost every Arab who fled" by pointing out the actual reasons Palestinians fled their homeland.

Yeah, I addressed the part where almost everyone should have been said as most everyone. MOST EVERYONE who fled did so due to the Arab bombing of their homes. Had tha Arabs not started bombing the area, they would never have fled.

His response is to my response to a post that Israel forced out the Arabs. Follow along, please.

There's no mention of Arab bombings in what you quoted from Jhhnn's link, the vauge phrase "flail of war" is the only thing which even comes close, but what Morris is refering to there is further explained here:

Wait...you are saying the Arabs did not bomb Israel when they attacked? Are you awake yet?

Follow the link for the rest of the list, and note that nothing along the lines of "the other Arabs were dropping explosives onto their homes and places of work" is featured anywhere on it. So Cybersage, where did you get that notion from? Also, what case of "one village, and those who were responsible were punished for doing it" were you referring to? Please share your sources.

Ummm....I got that info from the fact that the Arab nations attacked using artillary and bombers. I am sure you do not think artillary and bombers drop flowers, do you? Most people understand that bombs are dropped by bombers and that artillary shells have the same effect on homes and places of business as bombs have. I am not sure why you are confused about this.

Here is the makeup of the forces during the 1948 war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#Initial_line-up_of_forces

 

[kylebisme]

Ummm....I got that info from the fact that the Arab nations attacked using artillary and bombers. I am sure you do not think artillary and bombers drop flowers, do you?

Rather, I'm aware of the fact that the Arab nations attacked the Israeli military forces who had already driven Palestinians from their homes and businesses, as noted in the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service document I quoted in my previous post. Am I to take it you simply assumed everyone was sitting around peaceful until Arab armies started indiscriminately bombing the piss out of the place? In all my time studying history I've never seen such an idiotic notion, so if you didn't come up with that absurdity on your own but rather were mislead to believe it by someone else, I'd really love to know your source.

Also, I'm still wondering about your claim of "one village, and those who were responsible were punished for doing it" were you referring to previously. Again, what where you speaking of, specifically?