ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,730
- 16
- 81
Ha. Because Israeli troops intentionally target inncoent women and children. You really don't know WTF you're talking about, so stop while you're not too far behind.
Ha. Because Israeli troops intentionally target inncoent women and children. You really don't know WTF you're talking about, so stop while you're not too far behind.
Exactly. all the pro-Isr. people say that Israel is morally superior. She has never proven it. They ask the Palestinians to take the Ghandi road. They fail to understand that no one except for the US sides with Israel, so it is up to Israel to take the Ghandi approach, especially since if it does it would win a lot more sympathy, something that the rest of the world, for better or worse, only has for the Palestinians. But I guess you'll have people like Dari pop up and say that Israel needs no sympathy rah rah rah. Oh well.
They might not intentionally target them, but they also do a piss poor job of trying to avoind them, so is there really a difference? Only in perspective IMO.
EXman
Lifer
- Jul 12, 2001
- 20,079
- 15
- 81
I guess you like the Palestinian brand better.
Is that the Suicide bomber Sbarro Pizza method?
wtf are you thinking go read the definition of terrorism then get back to us...
Israel is trying to KILL men who send kids with bombs to kill innocents so that the slaughtering of innocents will end. While on the other hand you have some Hamas Leader trying to kill non-combatants on PURPOSE to incite TERROR. You do the math pal. If you don't like it refer to our US foreign policy if you don't like it tough.
Every time Israel razes the home of a suicide bomber they are punishing someone - often children since Palestinians breed like rabbits . . . or Mormons
. Israel and its supporters cling to the notion that "collateral damage" excuses the dead, injured, or homeless that results from Israeli actions. There's absolutely NO excuse for suicide bombing targeting civilians but Israeli excuses for razing homes ring hollow. They are razing homes to build their illegal/immoral wall and they are razing homes as retribution against the families of people that attack Israel. Palestinian attacks are certainly indiscriminate except for the occasional attack on the IDF. But Israeli occupation and attacks are not defensible as moral actions of self-defense. It's a BS argument and self-delusional. If you doubt it reverse the roles. Do you think Israelis living in a region of forced subjugation would not use "terror" tactics against soft targets?As long as the US stands behind Sharon/Likud, this conflict will never end. As much as I despise Palestinian tactics it would be foolish for them to crack down on militants (which would likely lead to protracted civil strife). Even if a tattered Palestinian Authority survived what are odds Israel would foot the bill for demolishing much of their wall and repatriating Israelis currently occupying the West Bank and Gaza. It's a ridiculous premise being advanced by Sharon. The US should have NO part in it but Bush acts like Israel is the superpower and the US is a client state begging for money and military hardware.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,730
- 16
- 81
Because I actually served there. I know the way they operate better than this Justin guy and Hagbard.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,730
- 16
- 81
A few points. When Israel razes a bombers home, it's not retaliation or retribution. It's a deterent. Other potential bombers see what happens and hopefully think twice. So it leaves some people homeless, better homeless than to be DEAD or injured for life like the innocent victims of the bomber. Another thing, the only reason the Palestinians live in the current state of checkpoints, etc. is BECAUSE of the bombers. It would be sudical for Israel not to have checkpoints. Bombers would be allowed to walk right through. These checkpoints net would-be bombers daily. If they don't like to live that way they would STOP SUPPORTING THE TERRORISTS.Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Every time Israel razes the home of a suicide bomber they are punishing someone - often children since Palestinians breed like rabbits . . . or Mormons
There lies the problem. Arafat is in charge. But the guy is himself a chief terrorists. It's asking him to crack down on himself.
This argument will remain circular b/c everybody starts with "so and so did this to me so I'm just striking back". Both sides claim victimhood and self-defense while decrying the vicious nature of their opposition. I can admit my bias. I'm biased towards Israel BUT Israel is wrong. Israel needs real allies. The US is an enabler not an ally. An enabler allows you do anything even if it is not in your long term best interests (for instance, delaying the Roadmap in order to avoid contradicting/highlighting Sharon's inadequacies or giving grants and military aid that is used liberally against Palestinians). But our position is understandable b/c Bush and Sharon have taken the "me against the world" approach. Hopefully, we will dump Bush's atrocious administration in the near future. Israel should do the same if they want "hope" for peace.
In the meantime, every Arab country should advance a realistic political agenda. Reasonable goals and reasonable course of action to end the conflict. There will forever be a state of Israel . . . they need to get over it and move on. Some may choose not to b/c they consider the militants and Palestinians as expendable cannon fodder for attacking Israel. There should be penalty to pay for such behavior but the tip of a cruise missile rarely wins converts.
In the meantime, every Arab country should advance a realistic political agenda. Reasonable goals and reasonable course of action to end the conflict. There will forever be a state of Israel . . . they need to get over it and move on. Some may choose not to b/c they consider the militants and Palestinians as expendable cannon fodder for attacking Israel. There should be penalty to pay for such behavior but the tip of a cruise missile rarely wins converts.
oh presense how i get nausiated by your repetitive bias and annoying argument your "i served" excuse is so tired. it makes you even MORE bias and LESS understanding. you're no better than the average illegal/ignorant settler who dislikes every single palestinian "just because". i've 2 israeli friends who i joke with (me being arab blood them being israeli blood) about each other sometimes, but deep down if we talk about it there is no argument--it's agreed that both sides are just as guilty. but i have to laugh when i run into someone who just can't accept the fact that israel is guilty, is NOT interested in real peace (the government anyway), and is not making any real attempts/changes in policy to have peace. "there will never be peace with the palestinans blah blah blah hating jews/israelies blah blah".. right? give me a break. you oughta join the soldiers that stepped down due to the immoral actions and murders of the rest of the IDF.
i'd love to put you in the shoes of a palestinian family just so you maybe the blinds over your eyes will be cracked open, even just a little bit.
your "i served" excuse is so tired. it makes you even MORE bias and LESS understanding. you're no better than the average illegal/ignorant settler who dislikes every single palestinian "just because". i've 2 israeli friends who i joke with (me being arab blood them being israeli blood) about each other sometimes, but deep down if we talk about it there is no argument--it's agreed that both sides are just as guilty. but i have to laugh when i run into someone who just can't accept the fact that israel is guilty, is NOT interested in real peace (the government anyway), and is not making any real attempts/changes in policy to have peace. "there will never be peace with the palestinans blah blah blah hating jews/israelies blah blah".. right? give me a break. you oughta join the soldiers that stepped down due to the immoral actions and murders of the rest of the IDF. i'd love to put you in the shoes of a palestinian family just so you maybe the blinds over your eyes will be cracked open, even just a little bit.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,862
- 84
- 91
Originally posted by: hagbard
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
only one side sends smart bombs against civilians with the goal of killing as many innocent men women and children as possible
You're all brainwashed. Try getting your information from something other than the zionist dominated US media. The Israeli's have been stealing Palestinian land since they established their jewish only state in 1949, and they did this by going in and killing as many Palestinians as possible thus driving them off their land and creating a climate of terror to drive them off other lands. They continue this today by creating "settlements" and taking "unused land" from the Palestinians. They bomb targets without concern for civilian life, blow up homes of suspected "terrorists" (hey, a while back, they blow up the apartment of one suspected terrorist. He lived on the third floor of an apartment building...this of course left everyone in the building homeless), use real instead of rubber bullets on protesters, prevent them from making a livelihood, and basically treat them worse then any victim of apartied was ever treated. Suicide bombers are clearly acts of despiration by vitims of the new nazis.
i'm brainwashed? bringing up zionist conspiracies again? that tin foil helmet your wearing must be protecting you from zionist mind control huh? the dirty fact is that only one side sends smart bombs against civilians with the goal of killing as many innocent men women and children as possible
and you coulnd't refute it. giving families of terrorists time to leave houses that are blown up in response to the massacure of civiilians by this palestinians smart bombs is not equivalent to the gleeful slaughter of civilians that the palestinians engage in. settlements are not the same as slaughtering civilians. rubber bullets against rock throwers with slings, molatov cocktails, explosives, rpgs, and real guns is not the same as slaughtering civilians with palestinian smart bombs. the fact is, the palestinians only lose their territory as they kill israeli's. it is a culture of hatred that allows the arabs to indescriminately kill israelis, even before occupation. in the 67 and 73 war, the arab states did not restrict themselves to military targets, they instead immediately shelled israeli homes, bombed israeli homes. ask yourself this, were the palestinians at peace with israel before the occupation? hahaha, no!! they supported war against israel and terrorism from the very start, when they rejected the initial UN partition plan. it was all or nothing. they even had leadership talks with hitler about how to impliment the final solution in their area. deny that if you can. \
comparing the israelis to nazi's is not only inaccurate, it is disengenuous. i've seen this from palestinian supporters time and time again. the palestinians were the ones who were historically involved and allied with hitler. they refused initial partition and peace. they are the ones who glee in genocide, not the israelis who even after suffering civilian casualties have not resorted to the nazi genocide programs. the palestinians are the ones to worship the suicide bombers, that teach their children to admire and aspire to be suicide bombers. they are the ones with school books that teach their children to hate jews as evil from day one. this is just as nazi propaganda/education brainwashing programs to create an atmosphere of hate. add to that they have trade cards for children about suicide bombers. this is just like the nazi mentality where death was worshipped. nazi youth were inculcated this way and sent as troops for the slaughter, just as palestinians are.
Right. Grab a dictionary. Call it bad or whatever you want, but it's not terrorism. You crazy people and your buzzwords
OT, when I first got to Oklahoma, a girl told me she was Indian, and I said "Oh, you mean Native American?" She laughed and said that only tourists call them that and that if I really wanted to differentiate between her people and those from India, I could just say American Indian but most locals would understand anyway...
p.s. She was hot
Most Native Americans/American Indians identify themselves by tribe. But for the sake of a general discussion Native American seems practical although American Indian is acceptable. I dig Native American women as well . . . assuming they aren't relatives.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,730
- 16
- 81
Originally posted by: mrCide
oh presense how i get nausiated by your repetitive bias and annoying argument
i've 2 israeli friends who i joke with (me being arab blood them being israeli blood) about each other sometimes, but deep down if we talk about it there is no argument--it's agreed that both sides are just as guilty. but i have to laugh when i run into someone who just can't accept the fact that israel is guilty, is NOT interested in real peace (the government anyway), and is not making any real attempts/changes in policy to have peace. "there will never be peace with the palestinans blah blah blah hating jews/israelies blah blah".. right? give me a break. you oughta join the soldiers that stepped down due to the immoral actions and murders of the rest of the IDF.
i'd love to put you in the shoes of a palestinian family just so you maybe the blinds over your eyes will be cracked open, even just a little bit.
I don't know where you get that from. Apparently, you only read the posts that you want to. I assume you've never read my posts where I stated that I am against alot of the settelments and that I am not a Sharon fan. I don't hate any Palestinians at all, stop making blind assumptions about me. The ones I hate are the bombers, and everyone else suffers because of them. The day they realize that is the day there will be hope for peace. I would advise you to try to put yourself in an Israelis shoes for one day. Try going shopping, or getting on a bus, or eating a resturaunt. It's a life-threatening experience. Israel is definitely interested in peace, look back at what Barak offered. There would be no P.A. if Israel wasn't interested in peace. And no, I will never join those traitors who start pissing in their pants when the heat comes down and when the bullets start flying - I don't care who they are or what they've done - I know the type. So go back to joke with your "Israeli friends" and take some medication for that nausea.
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: mrCide
oh presense how i get nausiated by your repetitive bias and annoying argument
i've 2 israeli friends who i joke with (me being arab blood them being israeli blood) about each other sometimes, but deep down if we talk about it there is no argument--it's agreed that both sides are just as guilty. but i have to laugh when i run into someone who just can't accept the fact that israel is guilty, is NOT interested in real peace (the government anyway), and is not making any real attempts/changes in policy to have peace. "there will never be peace with the palestinans blah blah blah hating jews/israelies blah blah".. right? give me a break. you oughta join the soldiers that stepped down due to the immoral actions and murders of the rest of the IDF.
i'd love to put you in the shoes of a palestinian family just so you maybe the blinds over your eyes will be cracked open, even just a little bit.
I don't know where you get that from. Apparently, you only read the posts that you want to. I assume you've never read my posts where I stated that I am against alot of the settelments and that I am not a Sharon fan. I don't hate any Palestinians at all, stop making blind assumptions about me. The ones I hate are the bombers, and everyone else suffers because of them. The day they realize that is the day there will be hope for peace. I would advise you to try to put yourself in an Israelis shoes for one day. Try going shopping, or getting on a bus, or eating a resturaunt. It's a life-threatening experience. Israel is definitely interested in peace, look back at what Barak offered. There would be no P.A. if Israel wasn't interested in peace. And no, I will never join those traitors who start pissing in their pants when the heat comes down and when the bullets start flying - I don't care who they are or what they've done - I know the type. So go back to joke with your "Israeli friends" and take some medication for that nausea.
The only responses I see to any I/P conflict are pretty much all similar. I'm glad to hear you're against the settlements and not a fan of sharon, but the way you speak leads me to believe otherwise. Especially how much you support and lean towards Israel and their actions (how are you not a fan of someone but support their actions/military?) No one likes the bombers, but you insist on supporting the your fellow military that kills civilians with no remorse, whether on accident or not, and you proceed to justify it at any chance you get. I understand why they do it, both sides, but it does NOT mean i agree with it. You seem to understand and agree with one side, and you are completely oblivious to the other side. There would be a PA, because the world, including the US, would not stand for complete and obvious obliteration of the PA/palestine. If it was up to Sharon and Israel, there would be no Palestine (it's funny because when you hear people saying there shouldn't be an Israel, the response is antisemite). But anyhow, it's funny you call them traitors. Please enlighten me, what is the type they are? The moral type? You're going to sit here and tell me they're covering their cowardess by stepping down, and not doing it for morality?
Anyhow. I will continue to joke about it (when appropriate) and I will continue to discuss it. I also took an aleve earlier, thanks.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,730
- 16
- 81
You misunderstand me. The reasons I am against Sharon, is not for the reasons you are. I do support the military actions taken by Israel under his leadership. Also, when I said there wouldn't be a P/A if Israel wasn't interested in peace, I meant that Israel would not have given back any cities or lands to them for them to create the PA on. I do understand the frustration of the Palestinian people (as much as I can), but what is Israel to do? It must protect it's citizens. As I said before, the day the Palestinian people realize that it's the terrorists among them that are to blame for their conditions is the day peace becaomes possible. Glad to hear that you're feeling better.Originally posted by: mrCide
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: mrCide
oh presense how i get nausiated by your repetitive bias and annoying argument
i've 2 israeli friends who i joke with (me being arab blood them being israeli blood) about each other sometimes, but deep down if we talk about it there is no argument--it's agreed that both sides are just as guilty. but i have to laugh when i run into someone who just can't accept the fact that israel is guilty, is NOT interested in real peace (the government anyway), and is not making any real attempts/changes in policy to have peace. "there will never be peace with the palestinans blah blah blah hating jews/israelies blah blah".. right? give me a break. you oughta join the soldiers that stepped down due to the immoral actions and murders of the rest of the IDF.
i'd love to put you in the shoes of a palestinian family just so you maybe the blinds over your eyes will be cracked open, even just a little bit.
I don't know where you get that from. Apparently, you only read the posts that you want to. I assume you've never read my posts where I stated that I am against alot of the settelments and that I am not a Sharon fan. I don't hate any Palestinians at all, stop making blind assumptions about me. The ones I hate are the bombers, and everyone else suffers because of them. The day they realize that is the day there will be hope for peace. I would advise you to try to put yourself in an Israelis shoes for one day. Try going shopping, or getting on a bus, or eating a resturaunt. It's a life-threatening experience. Israel is definitely interested in peace, look back at what Barak offered. There would be no P.A. if Israel wasn't interested in peace. And no, I will never join those traitors who start pissing in their pants when the heat comes down and when the bullets start flying - I don't care who they are or what they've done - I know the type. So go back to joke with your "Israeli friends" and take some medication for that nausea.
The only responses I see to any I/P conflict are pretty much all similar. I'm glad to hear you're against the settlements and not a fan of sharon, but the way you speak leads me to believe otherwise. Especially how much you support and lean towards Israel and their actions (how are you not a fan of someone but support their actions/military?) No one likes the bombers, but you insist on supporting the your fellow military that kills civilians with no remorse, whether on accident or not, and you proceed to justify it at any chance you get. I understand why they do it, both sides, but it does NOT mean i agree with it. You seem to understand and agree with one side, and you are completely oblivious to the other side. There would be a PA, because the world, including the US, would not stand for complete and obvious obliteration of the PA/palestine. If it was up to Sharon and Israel, there would be no Palestine (it's funny because when you hear people saying there shouldn't be an Israel, the response is antisemite). But anyhow, it's funny you call them traitors. Please enlighten me, what is the type they are? The moral type? You're going to sit here and tell me they're covering their cowardess by stepping down, and not doing it for morality?
Anyhow. I will continue to joke about it (when appropriate) and I will continue to discuss it. I also took an aleve earlier, thanks.
Israel should be the more responsible one, isn't it obvious the route they take is not working? All their retaliation does is anger the palestinians more, causing further hate and problems. It does not FIX anything, not a THING man. I'm not saying stop being secure (though I do NOT agree with how they go about it), I'm saying they need to take a different course of action. How can they claim to want peace when they keep building settlements? It's the worst thing they can do. Israel is not protecting anything with what they do, there is still fear, their is still suicide bombers, because you're nipping at the icing, you're not getting to the cake of the problem. PA has no real authority, they have no real leadership, and they lost their only hope of confidence (the PM). They have no police (why is it again that Israel took away their security/police?). So it leaves it all in the hands of Israel. And what have they done? You think killing militants or messing with their families does anything? You think that kid on the street that just lost his home after seeing his father killed is NOT going to look for revenge, someone in Hamas to help him get a bomb suit? You think he (she even) cares who they're going to kill? I'm sure they just want Israeli blood shed. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. I don't agree with what Israel does, and I understand it aswell. I agree with neither tactic, but Israel again should be the responsible older brother. what they do has proven to do nothing to help them. THEY'RE the one with a real government! How can you support any of that?
PS: You didn't answer my quesiton about the soldiers
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,730
- 16
- 81
The course of action they are taking stops alot of bombers, I can get the numbers if you wish. Regardless, the minute Israel decides to sit down and talk again, it makes terrorism WORK. It shows that terrrorism is a legitimate way to achive political ends. Israel will NEVER allow that to happen. They can't. The only way to peace would be for the bombings to stop.
I am against most of the settlements (probably not for the same reasons as you). I just think they cause Israel more harm than good in the long run.
What you refer to as the "cake" is probably no longer achievable. Not with terrorist training camps for 12 year olds. Not with what they teach in the schools over there. Nothing Israel can ever do or say will make these people think otherwise. What they want is destruction of Israel, they don't deny it.
Their leadership is Arafat. He is in complete control there. He runs the show, what he says goes.
Ummm...because they were shooting innocent Israeli civillians?
They have no choice. They cannot sit back and take it. They also can't stop responding unless the terrorism stops. Otherwise, they'd be caving in to terror. That cannot happen.
Yes, I think they're scared. War is scary. There are people who do it in every conflict, except that these people have a cause to claim that they support.
By bombing Iraq into submission did the US prove that "superior might makes right". Afghanistan is very close to being the same dump it was before we dropped a couple billion worth of munitions. The primary difference is that different garbage men are in charge. Curiously, they are the same garbage men the people of Afghanistan rejected in favor of the Taliban.
If war is diplomacy by other means why isn't terrorism "war by other means?" The US couldn't get its way by intimidating regional powers or allies into isolating Saddam so we invaded. The US has offered all kinds of inducements to produce a coalition of the willing. In the aftermath, it's even getting hard to buy friends.
The US invasion of Iraq is illegitimate. And certainly no more legitimate than terrorists that cannot get their way by a battle of ideas so they choose to kill with reckless abandon.
If war is diplomacy by other means why isn't terrorism "war by other means?" The US couldn't get its way by intimidating regional powers or allies into isolating Saddam so we invaded. The US has offered all kinds of inducements to produce a coalition of the willing. In the aftermath, it's even getting hard to buy friends.
The US invasion of Iraq is illegitimate. And certainly no more legitimate than terrorists that cannot get their way by a battle of ideas so they choose to kill with reckless abandon.
In this current round of violence? You're forgetting that everything had been quiet for several weeks until Hamas decided to bomb a bus stop frequented by Israeli soldiers three or four weeks ago (can't remeber the exact date off the top of my head). Then there was the Israeli retaliation, and so forth. Yes, it's a cycle. But the roadmap to peace did indeed look promising those few weeks. It's a shame, really.
Um, no. The opposite is true - The palestinians attacked with a dual bombing on Sept. 9 (source here). Israel subsequently retaliated against militants involved in the coordinating of the operation, as well as later strikes on senior Hamas leaders. I can probably dig up a few concrete details if you really want me to go that far. I'm not completely oblivious to the social programs offered by Hamas, but strikes on their military wing are completely justified.
I'd also really appreciate it if you'd stop calling me ignorant.
Both of you are mistaken. The original insults (general desertion of Palestinians by other Arab countries and ridiculous management by the UK/UN) were beyond the control of Israel and the Palestinians. This conflict is essentially a cockfight between a bird with razors (Israel) and a bird with dull razors (Palestine/unrelated insurgents). It will not end well if the combatants are left to their own devices but apparently their respective handlers consider it entertainment (US/Syria/Iran).
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