Israel: We Are At War

[[DHT]Osiris]

There are other options, but they would need to evacuate the Hospital anyway - or do you think that Israeli soldiers and Hamas members should go at it in the Hospital grounds while there are still sick and injured there?

I would prefer there be verification the hospital is actually evacuated prior to taking action. Hard to do when you're just pummeling it with missiles a requisite 6h after dropping a mortar on the roof as a 'warning'.

 

[Brovane]

I would prefer there be verification the hospital is actually evacuated prior to taking action. Hard to do when you're just pummeling it with missiles a requisite 6h after dropping a mortar on the roof as a 'warning'.

Might Hamas prevent a evacuation?

 

[amenx]

Unfortunately when Hamas decided to locate it's HQ inside of a Hospital, the Hospital loses it's special protected status under international law.

View attachment 88064

And where is the proof? Israels mere say so? They have a proven track record of lying through their teeth. As well as a record of indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment going back decades. Its part of their 'deterrence', to make the civilian populace suffer tremendous loss of life, property, infrastructure that their leaders may think twice about engaging in hostile acts.

Dahiya doctrine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

International law and Gaza War (2008–2009) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jaskalas]

International law?
Amidst the genocidal bloodbath Russia has been waging these past two years?
Someone still fancies the delusion that there is such a thing as law when it comes to war?

 

[Brovane]

And where is the proof? Israels mere say so? They have a proven track record of lying through their teeth. As well as a record of indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment going back decades. Its part of their 'deterrence', to make the civilian populace suffer tremendous loss of life, property, infrastructure that their leaders may think twice about engaging in hostile acts.

Do you think Hamas would admit to doing it? Even if US intelligence confirms it, would you accept that as proof or just move the goalposts?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Might Hamas prevent a evacuation?

If that's the case, they're hostages, and you definitely don't blow up the building.

I'm not sure why this is such a 'thing'. Bad guys are hiding amongst good guys. You cannot blow up goodies to get at baddies. No, not even in that case you're thinking of.

 

[Leeea]

If that's the case, they're hostages, and you definitely don't blow up the building.

I'm not sure why this is such a 'thing'. Bad guys are hiding amongst good guys. You cannot blow up goodies to get at baddies. No, not even in that case you're thinking of.

That is not true.

That is a choice that can be made. It is not black and white. It is more of a grey choice.


When bad guys hide among good guys they have murdered the good guys. Blowing them all up is a valid and acceptable choice. It may not be the right choice, but it is an acceptable choice.



Assaulting the position with infantry is likely to be just as pointless, as the bad guys are likely just to kill all the hostages out of spite.



Sometimes all the choices are bad. Why sacrifice more good guys pointlessly? Accepting the hostages are already dead and moving on may be the valid choice.



It really depends on the nation. Countries like the USA, France, UK have a social contract to attempt a rescue. Some countries in the EU will pay ransom. Other countries like Russia, Israel, Philippines have policies when captured your already dead.

The situation in Gaza is a complete mess because of the many nationalities involved.

 

[MrSquished]

Israel is a pathological liar on the international stage, and trying to equate Hamas with Nazis and ISIS.

But definitely, anytime they tell me a Palestinian civilian building is really just full of Hamas, they must be telling the truth, because for the last decades, they have really respected the Palestinian civilian lives, by not only creating a horrific apartheid state, but murdering thousands of civilians, and journalists. The pro-zionists can justify anything because they eat out of the palms of the zionists, and negate the history of terror perpetrated by the zionists.

 

[amenx]

Do you think Hamas would admit to doing it? Even if US intelligence confirms it, would you accept that as proof or just move the goalposts?

Probably not, but again, but all of you have at this stage is Israels word for it. Despite their past record of disproportionate destruction that goes beyond military objectives. And they are on record saying so in past conflicts (The Dahiya Doctrine).

Re US intelligence, if you've been out of the loop, they are not going to contradict anything the Israelis say, because they are not a neutral party in this. Israel remains the tail that wags the dog. Even fabricating evidence for US intelligence vs Iraq and WMD. So US intel and Israel are too often synonymous in function.

 

[amenx]

International law?
Amidst the genocidal bloodbath Russia has been waging these past two years?
Someone still fancies the delusion that there is such a thing as law when it comes to war?

Sure, Russia and Israeli have made a mockery of it. But its the only thing the world has at the moment to keep itself in check, despite bad actors in play.

 

[Moonbeam]

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/30/1209380561/israel-presses-into-gaza-as-pro-palestinian-protests-spread-worldwide

We create what we fear.

 

[spacejamz]

Wonder why Hamas doesn't let the civilians use the tunnels as bomb shelters? Oh wait, that would reduce the number of causalities for their propaganda efforts....and people here eat it up like candy at Halloween.

Gaza, where there are more shelters for bombs than bomb shelters for civilians...

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

That is not true.

That is a choice that can be made. It is not black and white. It is more of a grey choice.


When bad guys hide among good guys they have murdered the good guys. Blowing them all up is a valid and acceptable choice. It may not be the right choice, but it is an acceptable choice.



Assaulting the position with infantry is likely to be just as pointless, as the bad guys are likely just to kill all the hostages out of spite.



Sometimes all the choices are bad. Why sacrifice more good guys pointlessly? Accepting the hostages are already dead and moving on may be the valid choice.



It really depends on the nation. Countries like the USA, France, UK have a social contract to attempt a rescue. Some countries in the EU will pay ransom. Other countries like Russia, Israel, Philippines have policies when captured your already dead.

The situation in Gaza is a complete mess because of the many nationalities involved.

And what does the formula look like when one dead innocent creates two new Hamas members?

May as well nuke the whole fucking thing at once and move on.

 

[Brovane]

Wonder why Hamas doesn't let the civilians use the tunnels as bomb shelters? Oh wait, that would reduce the number of causalities for their propaganda efforts....and people here eat it up like candy at Halloween.

Gaza, where there are more shelters for bombs than bomb shelters for civilians...

Hamas makes sure that there is shelters for the families of the terrorists.

 

[Ajay]

Right, so now we get to fight over what 'warning' and 'reasonable time-limit' is, and whether Israel gave them that.

Israel has given several warnings already. If HAMAS actually cared about the Palestinian people. They would have facilitated the evacuation of the hospital, or, moved out themselves. As is abundantly clear by now, HAMAS doesn’t give a damn and prefers to hide behind civilian meat shields. Despicably so. So yes, all wars suck. It just sucks worse when your enemy has the moral fortitude of Ghengis Khan.

 

[MrSquished]

Israel has given several warnings already. If HAMAS actually cared about the Palestinian people. They would have facilitated the evacuation of the hospital, or, moved out themselves. As is abundantly clear by now, HAMAS doesn’t give a damn and prefers to hide behind civilian meat shields. Despicably so. So yes, all wars suck. It just sucks worse when your enemy has the moral fortitude of Ghengis Khan.

are you doing Bibi's press releases?

you just described the Israeli policy towards Palestinians in general. amazing the total lack of self-awareness.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't condemn all Israelis. I know there is opposition to netanyahu and the right wing agenda in there, including what is happening now. Just like during Trump many of us were against his government and policies.

When I say Israel I mean the current government And what it has done for decades and especially what it's been doing lately, and those who know and support its behavior and actions including what's going on now.

It is practically impossible to make this point often enough. The atmosphere, the temperature, the level of bias and entrenched sympathy on both sides make people trigger happy.

 

[Greenman]

If that's the case, they're hostages, and you definitely don't blow up the building.

I'm not sure why this is such a 'thing'. Bad guys are hiding amongst good guys. You cannot blow up goodies to get at baddies. No, not even in that case you're thinking of.

How do you fight a group that's using human shields? I agree with the idea that you can't slaughter noncombatants, but doesn't that equate to not being able to retaliate? Israel ends up in the position of either packing up and going home, or accepting civilian casualties. I sure as hell could never make that call.

 

[amenx]

Israel has given several warnings already. If HAMAS actually cared about the Palestinian people. They would have facilitated the evacuation of the hospital, or, moved out themselves. As is abundantly clear by now, HAMAS doesn’t give a damn and prefers to hide behind civilian meat shields. Despicably so. So yes, all wars suck. It just sucks worse when your enemy has the moral fortitude of Ghengis Khan.

How can they evacuate a hospital full of intensive care patients near death or with blown off limbs and other horrific injuries? Over 8000 dead and 20,000 wounded, one would think hospitals are stretched past the limit, dont you think?

 

[Ajay]

are you doing Bibi's press releases?

you just described the Israeli policy towards Palestinians in general. amazing the total lack of self-awareness.

On your part - most assuredly true. We are currently discussing some of the pragmatic and legal aspects of the war in Gaza - not our feelings about the plight of the long suffering Palestinian people (Going back centuries, FWIW). Bibi could trip and fall into a vat of acid for all I care.

 

[Ajay]

How can they evacuate a hospital full of intensive care patients near death or with blown off limbs and other horrific injuries? Over 8000 dead and 20,000 wounded, one would think hospitals are stretched past the limit, dont you think?

Good point. Apparently, the only real option was for HAMAS to abandon their positions at hospitals to make them a safe zone for those patients. But then we get to the question of why they dug tunnels under hospitals and put command posts in the hospitals. The answer is beyond obvious.

 

[MrSquished]

On your part - most assuredly true. We are currently discussing some of the pragmatic and legal aspects of the war in Gaza - not our feelings about the plight of the long suffering Palestinian people (Going back centuries, FWIW). Bibi could trip and fall into a vat of acid for all I care.

right. so you are taking the word of a government run by a criminal, who is beholden to radical far right doctrine, not just in regards to the Palestinians, but also domestic policy, whose IDF socials are gleefully posting about the death of Palestinians as euthenasia, and just taking what they are saying as truth to justify the genocide against civilians.

Do you hear yourself talking? It's obscene.

Aren't you that pro-life guy? Sure are selective about what life you are pro about. LIke most pro-lifers, a complete hypocrite.

 

[woolfe9998]

If that's the case, they're hostages, and you definitely don't blow up the building.

I'm not sure why this is such a 'thing'. Bad guys are hiding amongst good guys. You cannot blow up goodies to get at baddies. No, not even in that case you're thinking of.

When did "you cannot blow up goodies to get baddies" suddenly become a rule of war? The US killed at least 100,000 civilian Germans, and closer to 1,000,000 civilian Japanese in WWII bombings. 100's of 1000's in Vietnam. Hundreds of thousands between Iraq and Afghanistan. And as a reminder, none of those countries except AQ in Afghanistan ever murdered civilians in the US.

What Israel is doing right now in Gaza is what any democracy would do in the same circumstance. If you think the US or any other nation would respond to this attack differently, for any reason other than they didn't have the military capability to do so, then you're just not that aware of history. Your own country would handle this in roughly the same way. If Mexican cartels did something similar in the US, we'd be bombing every known cartel operating site in Mexico, regardless of proximity to civilians.

No, Israel cannot be judged on a double standard, with one rule applying to them and another, to everyone else in the world. It's rank hypocrisy. Israel is not just going to stand there and do nothing about an attack like this. Because that is the only alternative to attacks which inevitably kill civilians: doing nothing. Hamas thought this through. They knew that any Israeli response would endanger civilians and the hostages they kidnapped, and that Israel would be condemned for it by westerners who urge one standard of conduct for Israel and another for everyone else. They are succeeding.

 

[KMFJD]

Indeed:

https://x.com/AdrianMihail90/status/1501261113832329217?s=20

I guess they were also fucking around and finding out…

yeah that was the one, horrible then, horrible now

 

[Leeea]

And what does the formula look like when one dead innocent creates two new Hamas members?

May as well nuke the whole fucking thing at once and move on.

The chaos in Gaza, the Israeli raids? They all benefit the official US policy of rescuing hostages by force of arms.


The US needs chaos in Gaza to execute its rescue missions, otherwise Hamas will react in an organized manner when it inserts its teams.

The bombing, the violence, the death, the madness, allowing the IDF to just have its way, it all furthers the US objective to bring its people home via the only way it is allowed to do so.


The only thing the US cannot have is a full on invasion, because that would actually get the hostages killed.