Israel takes first halting step to admitting guilt in Gaza

[Lemon law]

The link somewhat speaks for itself.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/02/01/world/AP-ML-Israel-Palestinians.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

As Israel gets perilously close the six month deadline of having the Goldstone report allegations automatically turned over to international war crimes prosecutors.

So far, the Israeli actions seem woefully inadequate, mere loss of promotional opportunities for an Israeli General and Colonel. And a large number of other serious charges still not acted upon. Will the UN accept that far too little far too late, and if not, will the Obama administration use a pro Israeli Veto? But even Abbas is scaling back his Israeli settlement
demands from six months to three.

I guess only time will tell.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Israel should give the UN the finger, if only on the grounds that any other country in the world would react in a much more violent way to rocket fire into its territories.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Has Hamas or Hezbollah admitted anything or surrendered any people from their part?

 

[Moonbeam]

Israel should give the UN the finger, if only on the grounds that any other country in the world would react in a much more violent way to rocket fire into its territories.

Well rocket fire probably clouds people's thinking. For example, just the other day I gave a cop the finger when he tried to arrest me for shop lifting. I take far less than your average thief.

 

[Moonbeam]

Has Hamas or Hezbollah admitted anything or surrendered any people from their part?

I couldn't get the cop who arrested me to admit that he beat people.

 

[Craig234]

The Gladstone report appears very fair - despite both sides attacking it.

The way the international court works is that it has jurisdiction when war crimes are committed and the nation involves fails to prosecute them, as both Israel and Hamas have done.

These steps by Israel look lke a disengenuous attempt to claim they have held people accountable and are therefore not subject to the international court. Bull.

I want both sides held accountable by the court - and for the US to sign up for its own accountability.

 

[Lemon law]

Has Hamas or Hezbollah admitted anything or surrendered any people from their part?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And in MHO, Common Courtesy asks a fair question. My problem as OP on this thread is that I can only post news articles already written by others and have no right to post news articles not written.

And while I am not 100% sure, I believe the Goldstone report covers only Israeli actions, and a totally separate report covers various war crimes committed by the Hamas side. A responsibility Hamas first denied but later admitted.

But if Common Courtesy wants to ask a question, it comes with a responsibility of researching the answer. I too will see if I can find some answers on the Hamas side question. Even though we must also realize that Abbas, as an non involved Fatah figure, that Abbas has no standing in speaking for Hamas.

 

[Lemon law]

Well, it looks like I was wrong because the Goldstone report covered both Israeli and Hamas war crime violations. But in 10/2009, the UN, against Gladstone recommendations, decided to pursue only Israeli violations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

I found many other google links, but most of them were incredibly biased. But there may be some wheat among the drivel for those who care to look.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Well, it looks like I was wrong because the Goldstone report covered both Israeli and Hamas war crime violations. But in 10/2009, the UN, against Gladstone recommendations, decided to pursue only Israeli violations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

I found many other google links, but most of them were incredibly biased. But there may be some wheat among the drivel for those who care to look.

Potential bias by the UN again.

They did nothing against Hezbollah either.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The Gladstone report appears very fair - despite both sides attacking it.

How, may I ask, do you evaluate the 'fairness' of this report?

 

[Craig234]

How, may I ask, do you evaluate the 'fairness' of this report?

Well, first, I listened to an interview in -depth with Gladstone explaining his point of view - his background, his reasons for taking the project (eventually), his approach. I listened to others from different points of view comment on Gladstone and the report. I looked at his demonstrated ability from the past to write this kind of report for other war crimes situations.

You might be interested to know, that Gladstone felt it was essential he be able to include the rockets as a war crime in the report before accepting the project. He discussed in some detail the resistance he ran into at times from some in the UN, and his willingness not to do it if he couldn't say what he wanted on their crimes as well. He won those battles and said what he wanted for both.

It's not the case that a fair report had to be accusing of both sides, if the facts were otherwise, but it seems here it was attacking of both sides for the right reasons.

There's opinion involved in saying what I said, of his motivations and his skills at this sort of thing.

I'm not expert enough on this to say more strongly it was fair - but it was my impression from the things I've heard.

 

[Lemon law]

Common Courtesy notes, " Potential bias by the UN again.

They did nothing against Hezbollah either."

An easy charge to make, but still there is a crucial difference.

Israel is an actual State and a signatory to various international agreements regarding war crimes. And Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah are mere small organizations with dual purposes. And all formed long after the fact that Israel was expanding its territory and making their own Palestinian citizens into third class citizens. And if there is one constant in the entire 62 year history of the State of Israel, its been the fact that Israel actions have created Arab, Palestinian, and Lebanese terrorists actions because Israel has not turned into the just State the UN thought it would be when Israel was created by the UN in 1948.

As for both Fatah and Hamas, they are more committees to help run the concentration camps they are trapped in rather than governments in any sense. And while Hamas does engage in some terrorism, the bulk of their activities are in making a prisoner of war camp barely livable. And Hezzbollah formed for the same purpose when Israel occupied Lebanon.

But the end lesson the UN is sending, maybe be to say that Israel has to address the issues of how to end their occupation of land captured in the 1967 war, and how to form a Palestinian State. And that Israel is being held to a standard as a State that does not apply to Non States. Rather than trying to forever kick the can down the road and doom any hopes for a just peace as Israel keeps expanding their illegitimate gains.

Yes, I can understand the Israeli howls of unfair, but the UN does a tiny bit to understand the quite just Arab and Palestinians howls of unfair at the same time.

Face the facts, the mid-east is a hell hole simply because all sides are being unfair. One injustice heaped on another as tit for tat violence rules the day on both side. As things get worse and worse, until it has no beginning and no end.

When are we going to grow a brain as a collective world and come up with a fair settlement? Its why I have always advocated binding arbitration because its clear we will never get progress any other way. Been there, done that, and a good idea has produced no progress.

 

[werepossum]

Israel should give the UN the finger, if only on the grounds that any other country in the world would react in a much more violent way to rocket fire into its territories.

This. In fact, using both hands and pumping them violently up and down.

 

[Freshgeardude]

The Gladstone report appears very fair - despite both sides attacking it.

The way the international court works is that it has jurisdiction when war crimes are committed and the nation involves fails to prosecute them, as both Israel and Hamas have done.

These steps by Israel look lke a disengenuous attempt to claim they have held people accountable and are therefore not subject to the international court. Bull.

I want both sides held accountable by the court - and for the US to sign up for its own accountability.

im sorry, but does the goldstone report say anything about the months of rocket fire coming from gaza, the way hamas treats its people, or the way they spend billions on weapons instead of fixing up the shithole they live in because their government does not stop attacks on israel, causing israel to isolate it?

I would love to see hamas even say ONCE that they are sorry for a rocket attack, but as long as the UN doesnt say shit about the rockets, they dont either.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Common Courtesy notes, " Potential bias by the UN again.

They did nothing against Hezbollah either."

An easy charge to make, but still there is a crucial difference.

Israel is an actual State and a signatory to various international agreements regarding war crimes. And Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah are mere small organizations with dual purposes. And all formed long after the fact that Israel was expanding its territory and making their own Palestinian citizens into third class citizens. And if there is one constant in the entire 62 year history of the State of Israel, its been the fact that Israel actions have created Arab, Palestinian, and Lebanese terrorists actions because Israel has not turned into the just State the UN thought it would be when Israel was created by the UN in 1948.

As for both Fatah and Hamas, they are more committees to help run the concentration camps they are trapped in rather than governments in any sense. And while Hamas does engage in some terrorism, the bulk of their activities are in making a prisoner of war camp barely livable. And Hezzbollah formed for the same purpose when Israel occupied Lebanon.

But the end lesson the UN is sending, maybe be to say that Israel has to address the issues of how to end their occupation of land captured in the 1967 war, and how to form a Palestinian State. And that Israel is being held to a standard as a State that does not apply to Non States. Rather than trying to forever kick the can down the road and doom any hopes for a just peace as Israel keeps expanding their illegitimate gains.

Yes, I can understand the Israeli howls of unfair, but the UN does a tiny bit to understand the quite just Arab and Palestinians howls of unfair at the same time.

Face the facts, the mid-east is a hell hole simply because all sides are being unfair. One injustice heaped on another as tit for tat violence rules the day on both side. As things get worse and worse, until it has no beginning and no end.

When are we going to grow a brain as a collective world and come up with a fair settlement? Its why I have always advocated binding arbitration because its clear we will never get progress any other way. Been there, done that, and a good idea has produced no progress.

The Palestinians claim to be represent by Hamas. They want to be recognized as a state. Therefore they need to act as a state.

The UN has always sided against Israel when she has been attacked by the Arabs and Palestinians. Protection is provide to the opponent which then has used such protection for cover to rinse and repeat.

If the Palestinians are not a state; then why should Israel be held to a double standard. Treat the Palestinians as a state, but the Palestinians do not have to act like one.

The land taken after '67 was taken from Jordan and Egypt. It was not taken from the Palestinians as ownership - they never had land - it was being held in trust by those that attacked and lost it to Israel. Multiple times, not just once.

Because the Palestinians were "betrayed" by their Arab brethren, some people feel that there should be a do-over.

I would agree, except that the Palestinians at the time aligned themselves and fought against Israel.

It is a shame that the sons must pay for the sins of the fathers; yet the sons have shown to be no different over the past 30-40 years.

 

[Craig234]

im sorry, but does the goldstone report say anything about the months of rocket fire coming from gaza, the way hamas treats its people, or the way they spend billions on weapons instead of fixing up the shithole they live in because their government does not stop attacks on israel, causing israel to isolate it?

I would love to see hamas even say ONCE that they are sorry for a rocket attack, but as long as the UN doesnt say shit about the rockets, they dont either.

The report is an investigation of war crimes in the armed conflict, not a report on all the behaviors of the two sides.

As such, it did report the rocket launches by Hamas as a war crime, and did not report the issues unrelated to war crimes in the armed conflict.

The UN has jurisdiction over states. Israel is a state, the Palestenians are not, they're a people under the thumb of Israel. I don't think Hamas apologized. Sitting Bull didn't apologize for Custer, did he?

I'm not sure if the international criminal court has jurisdiction over Hamas - if they do, they can charge the leadership with crimes if the evidence supports it.

 

[soccerballtux]

Gaza is an Islamic radicalist problem, even the mainstream media has caught onto this.
Lemon, why don't you go ahead and deny the holocaust while you're at it?

 

[EagleKeeper]

im sorry, but does the goldstone report say anything about the months of rocket fire coming from gaza, the way hamas treats its people, or the way they spend billions on weapons instead of fixing up the shithole they live in because their government does not stop attacks on israel, causing israel to isolate it?

I would love to see hamas even say ONCE that they are sorry for a rocket attack, but as long as the UN doesnt say shit about the rockets, they dont either.

The report is an investigation of war crimes in the armed conflict, not a report on all the behaviors of the two sides.

As such, it did report the rocket launches by Hamas as a war crime, and did not report the issues unrelated to war crimes in the armed conflict.

The UN has jurisdiction over states. Israel is a state, the Palestenians are not, they're a people under the thumb of Israel. I don't think Hamas apologized. Sitting Bull didn't apologize for Custer, did he?

I'm not sure if the international criminal court has jurisdiction over Hamas - if they do, they can charge the leadership with crimes if the evidence supports it.

Israel acted (to some extent on the findings). Hamas will not but states that Israel should.

If the Palestinians want to be a state, then they need to be treated as a state and held to the same standard.

They do not feel that they have to. And the UN seems to back this up all to many times.

 

[Craig234]

Israel acted (to some extent on the findings). Hamas will not but states that Israel should.

If the Palestinians want to be a state, then they need to be treated as a state and held to the same standard.

They do not feel that they have to. And the UN seems to back this up all to many times.

If you're paid to propagandize for Israel, not a word woudl change.

Israel attacked and dismised the report and then their actions were a joke just before the 6 months.

Hamas attacked and ignored the report. They can be attacked for that.

But they don't have to 'act like a state' and jump though hoops for you. Did Israel 'prove themselves'?

You sound a lot like the whites in the early 60's - 'we'll give them people civil rights when they respect law & order. But they're uppity now, so they can wait'.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I do not need to propagandize for them. I have seen and experience first hand the results ofwhat happens when they have turned the other cheek.

The Palestinians want a state - show that they are willing to abide by the rules that they expect Israel to abide by. At present, they do not want to. Yet they then complain when they are not treated as a state.

 

[Lemon law]

In all due respects to Common Courtesy, the assertion that "The Palestinians claim to be represent by Hamas. They want to be recognized as a state. Therefore they need to act as a state." is totally false. Not only do we have a situation where a false initial premise invalidates all subsequent arguments, we have the situation of 50% of the Palestinians are siding with the more non violent Fatah. The point being, neither behavior advances their cause, and we have to admit all sides have just grievances. If violence or non violence screws them, what are their alternatives to get justice? I will eagerly await the Common Courtesy response.

As for the totally idiotic Soccerballux response of , "why don't you go ahead and deny the holocaust while you're at it?", the answer is no, I will not deny past history.

But that insulting question poses two additional problems.

1. Just because one set of people were oppressed by the Nazi's, why should we allow Israel to act just like the Nazi's in oppressing the Palestinians?

2. Why should you or I be forced to choose one side or the other and assume one side is all good and the other side is all bad. The world simply never works that way, never has and never will. That is simply your stinking white black argument that does not apply to a complex situation. And the fact is and remains, a pile of wrongs on all sides will never add up to a single right.

Do we want to solve this problem in a just and lasting manner or not? Only by seeing reality and applying standards of universal justice can a fair solution be found.

 

[wwswimming]

Israel takes first halting step to admitting guilt in Gaza

i don't think "guilt" is the right word.

a lot of Israeli's are proud of their racism & proud of their culture's cruelty towards the Arabs. It goes with the territory - they had to have a greedy attitude in 1948 to move in & destroy 400 Palestinian villages, and to say, "this land is ours now."

but they do have freedom of the press in Israel, so a lot of the most reliable sources for documenting Israeli racism are papers like Ha'aretz.

 

[soccerballtux]

The link somewhat speaks for itself.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/02/01/world/AP-ML-Israel-Palestinians.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

As Israel gets perilously close the six month deadline of having the Goldstone report allegations automatically turned over to international war crimes prosecutors.

So far, the Israeli actions seem woefully inadequate, mere loss of promotional opportunities for an Israeli General and Colonel. And a large number of other serious charges still not acted upon. Will the UN accept that far too little far too late, and if not, will the Obama administration use a pro Israeli Veto? But even Abbas is scaling back his Israeli settlement
demands from six months to three.

I guess only time will tell.

i don't think "guilt" is the right word.

a lot of Israeli's are proud of their racism & proud of their culture's cruelty towards the Arabs. It goes with the territory - they had to have a greedy attitude in 1948 to move in & destroy 400 Palestinian villages, and to say, "this land is ours now."

but they do have freedom of the press in Israel, so a lot of the most reliable sources for documenting Israeli racism are papers like Ha'aretz.

No it was more like "Arabs can't agree so tough luck we're taking this much, the amount we've historically had, and you all can just get over it"

The Arabs are ultimately angry at themselves that they couldn't reach an agreement. They project that onto Israelis.

 

[Noobtastic]

im sorry, but does the goldstone report say anything about the months of rocket fire coming from gaza, the way hamas treats its people, or the way they spend billions on weapons instead of fixing up the shithole they live in because their government does not stop attacks on israel, causing israel to isolate it?

The Goldstone report was debunked long ago. The 530+ page "fact-finding" report is supported almost exclusively by hamas-coached testimony and regurgitated assessments from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. But most disturbingly it relies on Palestinian sources on a level beyond unacceptable.



The original author himself admitted it would not hold up in a court of law.

This is what he said:

We had to do the best we could with the material we had. If this was a court of law, there would have been nothing proven. We couldn’t use that report as evidence at all. And I wouldn’t consider it in any way embarrassing if many of the allegations turn out to be disproved.

As many of the reactionary Israel haters on this forum, I will point to the historical Jew rule when it comes to the court.

If a Jew admits guilt, he is guilty, but, if a Jew denies guilt, one is guilty, too. The only difference is that the former doesn't require an auto da fe to obtain the confession of guilt. In the minds of Jew and Israel haters, we are always guilty. So regardless of Israel's competent and professional judicial system, users like Lemon Law will behave blindly and only select "facts" that confirm Israel's unusual guilt.

I will add that after reading the Goldstone report, the most horrifying and morally offensive revelation was the authors failure to document Hamas' use of human shields. Even the Hamas leadership admitted to it:

"For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed humans shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life.

"For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed humans shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life.

-Fathi Hamma, Hamas leader

Goldstone believed this statement alone did not constitute an admission of guilt or any "systematic policy" - in spite of hours of UAV footage demonstrating Hamas' padding civilian areas with rockets and combatants.

Just disgusting.

 

[Genx87]

Common Courtesy notes, " Potential bias by the UN again.

They did nothing against Hezbollah either."

An easy charge to make, but still there is a crucial difference.

Israel is an actual State and a signatory to various international agreements regarding war crimes. And Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah are mere small organizations with dual purposes. And all formed long after the fact that Israel was expanding its territory and making their own Palestinian citizens into third class citizens. And if there is one constant in the entire 62 year history of the State of Israel, its been the fact that Israel actions have created Arab, Palestinian, and Lebanese terrorists actions because Israel has not turned into the just State the UN thought it would be when Israel was created by the UN in 1948.

As for both Fatah and Hamas, they are more committees to help run the concentration camps they are trapped in rather than governments in any sense. And while Hamas does engage in some terrorism, the bulk of their activities are in making a prisoner of war camp barely livable. And Hezzbollah formed for the same purpose when Israel occupied Lebanon.

But the end lesson the UN is sending, maybe be to say that Israel has to address the issues of how to end their occupation of land captured in the 1967 war, and how to form a Palestinian State. And that Israel is being held to a standard as a State that does not apply to Non States. Rather than trying to forever kick the can down the road and doom any hopes for a just peace as Israel keeps expanding their illegitimate gains.

Yes, I can understand the Israeli howls of unfair, but the UN does a tiny bit to understand the quite just Arab and Palestinians howls of unfair at the same time.

Face the facts, the mid-east is a hell hole simply because all sides are being unfair. One injustice heaped on another as tit for tat violence rules the day on both side. As things get worse and worse, until it has no beginning and no end.

When are we going to grow a brain as a collective world and come up with a fair settlement? Its why I have always advocated binding arbitration because its clear we will never get progress any other way. Been there, done that, and a good idea has produced no progress.

In this day and age leaders of rogue organizations can be held accountable as much as leaders of recognized states.

My honest answer to the problem is let both sides take the gloves off and wipe one of the camps out. It is how humans have done it for thousands of years. Or we can continue to keep the parties at arms length and swing and miss and hit innocent bystanders.