israel levels an entire city within an hour

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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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And how do you suggest Israel defend itself from people launching rockets from a hospital without target said hospital?

Preemptive raids by SF on helicopters under the cover of night who go after known Hamas members. Think that was never done? And never by some evil oppressive country? The US has done that in Iraq and Afghanistan for decades now. When did the US ever wholesale bomb villages and cities full of civilians? Surprised?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
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Preemptive raids by SF on helicopters under the cover of night who go after known Hamas members. Think that was never done? And never by some evil oppressive country? The US has done that in Iraq and Afghanistan for decades now. When did the US ever wholesale bomb villages and cities full of civilians? Surprised?

Atomic_bombing_of_Japan.jpg


gty_WWII_dresden_bombing_jt_120520_wg.jpg


Japan and Germany haven't been a problem since :colbert:

Careful with your rhetoric, please.

Perknose
Forum Director
 
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Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
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Preemptive raids by SF on helicopters under the cover of night who go after known Hamas members. Think that was never done? And never by some evil oppressive country? The US has done that in Iraq and Afghanistan for decades now. When did the US ever wholesale bomb villages and cities full of civilians? Surprised?

Oh my God, you are an imbecile.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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And I suppose you want to compare high intensity warfare from World War 2 with the low intensity conflict between Hamas and the Israelites?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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And I suppose you want to compare high intensity warfare from World War 2 with the low intensity conflict between Hamas and the Israelites?

You asked when the US had ever bombed cities full of people. I told you. Sorry if you don't like the answer.

Probably especially since Germany and Japan are now considered upstanding countries that don't go around causing problems.

Seems like the Israeli problem is they have spent decades half-assing things instead of taking care of business.

EDIT: For a more modern example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukaradeeb_wedding_party_massacre
 

Harabec

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2005
1,369
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Come and live with us for 1 day, see how Hamas fights (both the army and us, ordinary citizens) and call this "low intensity".
Sheltered people...
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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Yes there are lots of atrocities committed by individual infantry soldiers and smaller units as well as targeted airstrikes that hit the wrong fucking shit. But when did we ever bomb out whole fucking sections of cities in Iraq. I doubt we just let the artillery go weapons free in Fallujah.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
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Come and live with us for 1 day, see how Hamas fights (both the army and us, ordinary citizens) and call this "low intensity". Sheltered people...

You have no idea what the fuck that word is referring to.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Come and live with us for 1 day, see how Hamas fights (both the army and us, ordinary citizens) and call this "low intensity".
Sheltered people...
You're right about that...we have many who live very sheltered lives in this country.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Given that Hamas places the squeeze on the Palestinians in Gaza.
Israel supplies the majority of items to the Palestinians in Gaza.

Place the squeeze on Israel, and Israel chokes Gaza completely. Just like Hamas, they will take care of themselves first.

The tit for tat scenario.

Gaza and the world will fold the sanctions well before Israel does. The British tried to apply an embargo against pre-Israel and that was able to be fairly well broken by those that supported the Jews.

How long do you think that Gaza can last without logistics from Israel even if Egypt was to work with Gaza by opening their borders? Egypt is more concerned with Hamas getting out and creating mischief than providing support for the Gaza population.
Well said, sir.

If they are making an effort they are doing a really bad job at it.

My first thought would be to stop occupying them. People tend not to like it when you do that.

Or wait, if someone was occupying your home town would you just sit peacefully in it until they decided to stop?
Hamas makes no bones that they consider ALL of Israel to be occupied Palestine. Pulling back to the pre-67 borders would just give them better rocket launching points. Everyone knows this.

I think your idea of how modern warfare works is from a combination of video games and movies. Innocent people die in wars. The more of them that are around, the more that are going to die. Intelligence isn't perfectly up to date every minute. Then throw in the fact that Hamas is purposely putting civilians in harms way and it becomes impossible to spare them. I hesitate to call anyone in Gaza "innocent" since they elected Hamas and still support them.
Yep, on both counts. This idea that Israel could prevent civilian deaths is ludicrous and just not consistent with war. Even if Hamas was willing to stop using civilians (and the UN) to shelter its leadership and weapons, civilians would still die. The only way to prevent civilian deaths is to not fight, and in Israel's case that would be tantamount to group suicide.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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Low-intensity conflict is defined by the US Army as:

... a political-military confrontation between contending states or groups below conventional war and above the routine, peaceful competition among states. It frequently involves protracted struggles of competing principles and ideologies. Low-intensity conflict ranges from subversion to the use of the armed forces. It is waged by a combination of means, employing political, economic, informational, and military instruments. Low-intensity conflicts are often localized, generally in the Third World, but contain regional and global security implications.[2]

Weapons[edit]

As the name suggests, in comparison with conventional operations the armed forces involved operate at a greatly reduced tempo, with fewer soldiers, a reduced range of tactical equipment and limited scope to operate in a military manner. For example the use of air power, pivotal in modern warfare, is often relegated to transport and surveillance. Artillery is often not used when LIC occurs in populated areas. The role of the armed forces is dependent on the stage of the insurrection, whether it has progressed to armed struggle or is in an early stage of propaganda and protests.
Intelligence[edit]

Intelligence gathering is essential to an efficient basis of LIC operation instructions. Electronic and signal gathering intelligence, ELINT and SIGINT, proves largely ineffective against low intensity opponents. LIC generally requires more hands-on HUMINT methods of information retrieval.
Stages[edit]

In the first stages of insurrection, much of an army's work is "soft" - working in conjunction with civil authorities in psychological operations, propaganda, counter-organizing, so-called "hearts and minds." If the conflict progresses, possibly into armed clashes, the role develops with the addition of the identification and removal of the armed groups - but again, at a low level, in communities rather than throughout entire cities. This is roughly the definition of terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_intensity_conflict

Well I would probably recognize this as more of moderate intensity warfare but the fact remains that this is nothing like World War 2. The fact that nuclear weapons were even used in World War 2 tells just how big that war was.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
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I don't understand Hamas' long term strategy. Pot shots at Israel to stimulate Israel killing some civilians, get the world to make Israel stop, and then do it again. What does that accomplish long term other than to kill your own civilians? It certainly isn't going to get back any land.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Come and live with us for 1 day, see how Hamas fights (both the army and us, ordinary citizens) and call this "low intensity".
Sheltered people...
One of the most bizarre aspects of this whole sad situation is the number of people who accept the Palestinians' right to launch some rocket and mortar attacks, some kidnappings, some torture murders, some suicide murders, with the expectation that Israel should be okay with that.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
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One of the most bizarre aspects of this whole sad situation is the number of people who accept the Palestinians' right to launch some rocket and mortar attacks, some kidnappings, some torture murders, some suicide murders, with the expectation that Israel should be okay with that.

Strawman for $500?

KOeJuBQ.jpg
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
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One of the most bizarre aspects of this whole sad situation is the number of people who accept the Palestinians' right to launch some rocket and mortar attacks, some kidnappings, some torture murders, some suicide murders, with the expectation that Israel should be okay with that.

Our forefathers didn't believe peace should be purchased at the expense of chains and slavery. Can you honestly believe that any American would be ok with the lot the Palestinians have been cast?

Anyhow, here is Patrick henry in one of my favorite speeches.
They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations; and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable²and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace²but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
 
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Oct 30, 2004
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I long for the day when israel is turned into the worlds largest solar panel.

Are you saying that a nation should not defend itself when a neighboring government fires thousands of rockets and digs tunnels underground for the purpose of kidnapping, raping, and murdering your citizens?

Maybe the Palestinians should spend fewer resources firing rockets and building tunnels and more resources on trying to improve their economy.

The really painful fact of the matter is that if the Palestinians had made peace with and welcomed the Israelis decades ago, today they would have the highest standard of living and more freedom than everyone else in the Arab world. The Palestinian people fucked themselves.