israel levels an entire city within an hour

[cabri]

I give you Israel's actions over the last half century or so.

What about the Palestinian and Arab actions for the same time period.

Everything is a tit for tat.

The West Bank under Abbas has come to the realization that Israel is going to stay/exist and violence just creates more pain for the people there. The West Bank has prospered where Gaza has stagnated.

And should the Palestinians (as a group) follow the lead of the West Bank; everyone would come out ahead.
but Hamas does not want Israel to survive and is willing to sacrifice Gaza to ensure that the West Bank is unable to move forward.


Hamas needs the political influence and while realizing the same as Abbas, does not care. People getting killed becomes a tonic of health for them. the leadership does not live under the hardships; so the pain of Gaza is i their words only.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not using this logic, this is not relevent to anything I've said. Perhaps this comment is better directed towards those who actually use this particular "common tactic" instead.

No, it was directed at you. Regardless, I hope my position towards Hamas has been clarified for you.

I didn't say that gross violations of the Geneva Conventions by Hamas excuses Israel from being held to account for its violations and even a cursory reading of my posts would tell you that. When I compare and weigh the violations on both sides, I see Hamas as the most egregious violator of the two.

You specifically mentioned that Hamas was a worse violator by "orders of magnitude". What specifically are you weighing to make that judgment?

 

[QuantumPion]

It can be whatever the international community decides is appropriate.

Ok let's try this again. What do YOU think the penalty/punishment/resolution for illegal armed conquest in violation of international law and the UN should be? No evading allowed, this is just hypothetical.

 

[fskimospy]

Ok let's try this again. What do YOU think the penalty/punishment/resolution for illegal armed conquest in violation of international law and the UN should be? No evading allowed, this is just hypothetical.

I would shoot for some sort of international sanctions and divestment, South Africa style, most likely.

 

[GrGr]

I would shoot for some sort of international sanctions and divestment, South Africa style, most likely.

Absolutely, Israel needs to be put under sanctions South Africa style.

Russia is put under sanctions for supporting Russian speaking Ukrainians in Eastern Ukraine against the fascist government in Kiev that bombs civilians in Eastern Ukraine, while Israel can use ballistic missiles and air strikes against children and be given more bombs and military support by the US. The US and Israel are the masters of double morals and hypocrisy.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” - David Ben-Gurion, a.k.a. David Grün (1886-1973), Israeli Prime Minister (1948-53, 1955-63) revered by Israelis as "Father of the Nation"

 

[QuantumPion]

I would shoot for some sort of international sanctions and divestment, South Africa style, most likely.

You think the only penalty for illegal armed conquest and genocide should be South-Africa-style sanctions? Really?

 

[Harabec]

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” - David Ben-Gurion, a.k.a. David Grün (1886-1973), Israeli Prime Minister (1948-53, 1955-63) revered by Israelis as "Father of the Nation"

This site says otherwise. It was not said by him, perhaps not said at all...but as always that does not bother many sites who quote other sites who quote...etc.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

This site says otherwise. It was not said by him, perhaps not said at all...but as always that does not bother many sites who quote other sites who quote...etc.

This part of the quote "We must use terror, assassination . . ." is false.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:David_Ben-Gurion

 

[Shyatic]

I read a lot of these replies and think that people don't understand simple geography...

We have some folks saying "They shouldn't be with terrorists if they don't want Israel to retaliate!"

This is equivalent of saying that some fish in a barrel should think to move before we open fire.

There is nowhere for them to go. And children who are 2, 3, 4, 5 years old are not old enough to be "terrorists" or sympathizers. They are just kids. And the majority of the casualties of this war thus far. Nobody is defending Hamas, but a missile that the Palestinian children have no control over, they should be collectively punished for? I'm not saying I have a solution, but when you have precise, laser guided missiles and warfare equipment (thanks to Mr. US Taxpayer), and the other side has missiles that are so bad they almost always hit the ground, and also that children have no control over.. well... all I'm saying is that there has to be another solution on either end.

The Palestinians have nowhere to go, so they go to UN camps... and still get bombed.

 

[fskimospy]

You think the only penalty for illegal armed conquest and genocide should be South-Africa-style sanctions? Really?

Yeap. This would be devastating to Israel's economy and severely inhibit their ability to continue this kind of behavior.

Presumably you're asking if I think we should attack Israel militarily. I'd say that recent military action in the Middle East has shown why that would be a bad idea.

 

[cabri]

I read a lot of these replies and think that people don't understand simple geography...

We have some folks saying "They shouldn't be with terrorists if they don't want Israel to retaliate!"

This is equivalent of saying that some fish in a barrel should think to move before we open fire.

There is nowhere for them to go. And children who are 2, 3, 4, 5 years old are not old enough to be "terrorists" or sympathizers. They are just kids. And the majority of the casualties of this war thus far. Nobody is defending Hamas, but a missile that the Palestinian children have no control over, they should be collectively punished for? I'm not saying I have a solution, but when you have precise, laser guided missiles and warfare equipment (thanks to Mr. US Taxpayer), and the other side has missiles that are so bad they almost always hit the ground, and also that children have no control over.. well... all I'm saying is that there has to be another solution on either end.

The Palestinians have nowhere to go, so they go to UN camps... and still get bombed.

At what point can the line be drawn.

Hamas is hoping that the issue of children will free the militants from responsibility of their actions.

Collectively, the Palestinians in Gaza have decided to support Hamas, support the attacks.

The adults know that the retaliation is coming and stay in the area. They are knowingly then placing the children in greater danger.

While there may be no permanent place to evacuate; Israel is not targeting all of Gaza. It may be an inconvenience to move to another geographical area, but it can be done. They have to give up their homes to have some safety; such is the price of having the area being used as a battle field.

 

[cabri]

Yeap. This would be devastating to Israel's economy and severely inhibit their ability to continue this kind of behavior.

Presumably you're asking if I think we should attack Israel militarily. I'd say that recent military action in the Middle East has shown why that would be a bad idea.

Given that Hamas places the squeeze on the Palestinians in Gaza.
Israel supplies the majority of items to the Palestinians in Gaza.

Place the squeeze on Israel, and Israel chokes Gaza completely. Just like Hamas, they will take care of themselves first.

The tit for tat scenario.

Gaza and the world will fold the sanctions well before Israel does. The British tried to apply an embargo against pre-Israel and that was able to be fairly well broken by those that supported the Jews.

How long do you think that Gaza can last without logistics from Israel even if Egypt was to work with Gaza by opening their borders? Egypt is more concerned with Hamas getting out and creating mischief than providing support for the Gaza population.

 

[Phynaz]

What about the Palestinian and Arab actions for the same time period.

Everything is a tit for tat.

The West Bank under Abbas has come to the realization that Israel is going to stay/exist and violence just creates more pain for the people there. The West Bank has prospered where Gaza has stagnated.

And should the Palestinians (as a group) follow the lead of the West Bank; everyone would come out ahead.
but Hamas does not want Israel to survive and is willing to sacrifice Gaza to ensure that the West Bank is unable to move forward.


Hamas needs the political influence and while realizing the same as Abbas, does not care. People getting killed becomes a tonic of health for them. the leadership does not live under the hardships; so the pain of Gaza is i their words only.

Well said.

 

[OutHouse]

I like how you seem to think that air strikes into densely populated civilian areas are ok because you dropped leaflets first.

yip, they are making a effort not to kill civilians.

You complain about them shooting rockets at you. This makes sense! Nobody likes rockets being shot at them. The thing is, what you are doing GUARANTEES more rockets will be shot at you in the future. When people are occupied and forced into ghettos, they fight back. That's the price you pay for occupying and oppressing a group of people like that. Don't like it? Stop doing it.

so what is israel suppose to do? say to the terrorist STOP IT!!! in a stern voice over and over and over?

 

[OutHouse]

Ukraine probably have lots of justification for firing missiles at Russia, but they are sensible enough to understand/see that doing so would be a very bad idea.

If Ukraine fired thousands of missiles at Russia, what do you think would happen ?

Cuba probably does not especially like the US, especially in the 70s, 80s and 90s.
Should they have fired 10,000 Iranian missiles at the US, and what would have happened ?

There are much better ways the Palestinians could be handling this, which can lead to Peace in that region.

I.e. Negotiating Peace and if that fails, PEACEFUL protest.

Hamas does not want peace, all they care about is killing jews while chanting allah ackbar.

 

[fskimospy]

yip, they are making a effort not to kill civilians.

If they are making an effort they are doing a really bad job at it.

so what is israel suppose to do? say to the terrorist STOP IT!!! in a stern voice over and over and over?

My first thought would be to stop occupying them. People tend not to like it when you do that.

Or wait, if someone was occupying your home town would you just sit peacefully in it until they decided to stop?

 

[cabri]

yip, they are making a effort not to kill civilians.

If they are making an effort they are doing a really bad job at it.

If Israel was not being selectively targeting what is thought to be military related locations and alerting the civilians that the strikes were happening; what would the death toll then be.

There would be in the hundreds of thousands killed if Israel was as indiscriminate as Hamas is.

My first thought would be to stop occupying them. People tend not to like it when you do that.

Or wait, if someone was occupying your home town would you just sit peacefully in it until they decided to stop?

Israel does not occupy Gaza - how difficult is it to get it though some people.
they left back in '05, peacefully.

Handed over all the settlements to the Palestinians (which chose to torch many of them).

 

[CitizenKain]

If Israel was not being selectively targeting what is thought to be military related locations and alerting the civilians that the strikes were happening; what would the death toll then be.

There would be in the hundreds of thousands killed if Israel was as indiscriminate as Hamas is.

Give the IDF time, I'm sure they'll try even harder to slaughter more innocents to up their numbers.

 

[cabri]

No need to give them time; they have had plenty of opportunity. they chose not to.
But apparently you are like the Hamas PR system. Want casualties to generate public opinion.

Maybe if Hamas would actually own up to its statements/obligations...




Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

Article 58 of Protocol 1 Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1977 (which the Palestinian Authority has accepted) goes even further in this regard, requiring that Hamas remove Palestinian civilians from the vicinity of its military facilities, which would include any place where weapons, mortars, bombs and the like are produced, stored, or fired from, and any place where its fighters train, congregate or hide. Here is the text, which calls on the parties to the conflict to:

(a) ... endeavor to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives;

(b) Avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas;

(c) Take the other necessary precautions to protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations.

Hamas has taken those guidelines/articles from the Geneva conventions ard completely reversed them.

 

[SandEagle]

Hamas does not want peace, all they care about is killing jews while chanting allah ackbar.

hamas was created by israel

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847
http://middleeast.about.com/od/israelandpalestine/a/me090126.htm

/shrug

 

[CitizenKain]

No need to give them time; they have had plenty of opportunity. they chose not to.
But apparently you are like the Hamas PR system. Want casualties to generate public opinion.

Maybe if Hamas would actually own up to its statements/obligations...




Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

Article 58 of Protocol 1 Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1977 (which the Palestinian Authority has accepted) goes even further in this regard, requiring that Hamas remove Palestinian civilians from the vicinity of its military facilities, which would include any place where weapons, mortars, bombs and the like are produced, stored, or fired from, and any place where its fighters train, congregate or hide. Here is the text, which calls on the parties to the conflict to:

(a) ... endeavor to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives;

(b) Avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas;

(c) Take the other necessary precautions to protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations.

Hamas has taken those guidelines/articles from the Geneva conventions ard completely reversed them.

I'm sure they can move the population of one of the densest cities around on a whim. Not that the IDF even gives a shit about murdering civilians, they have people like you to pat them on the back for only murdering half the kids in a shelter, and not all of them.

 

[Phynaz]

No need to give them time; they have had plenty of opportunity. they chose not to.
But apparently you are like the Hamas PR system. Want casualties to generate public opinion.

Maybe if Hamas would actually own up to its statements/obligations...




Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

Article 58 of Protocol 1 Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1977 (which the Palestinian Authority has accepted) goes even further in this regard, requiring that Hamas remove Palestinian civilians from the vicinity of its military facilities, which would include any place where weapons, mortars, bombs and the like are produced, stored, or fired from, and any place where its fighters train, congregate or hide. Here is the text, which calls on the parties to the conflict to:

(a) ... endeavor to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives;

(b) Avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas;

(c) Take the other necessary precautions to protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations.

Hamas has taken those guidelines/articles from the Geneva conventions ard completely reversed them.

Now you've done it, you've posted actual facts.

 

[Phynaz]

I'm sure they can move the population of one of the densest cities around on a whim. Not that the IDF even gives a shit about murdering civilians, they have people like you to pat them on the back for only murdering half the kids in a shelter, and not all of them.

How about the terrorists move the weapons out of the schools and hospitals.

 

[cabri]

I'm sure they can move the population of one of the densest cities around on a whim. Not that the IDF even gives a shit about murdering civilians, they have people like you to pat them on the back for only murdering half the kids in a shelter, and not all of them.

Except that they are not targeting a complete city.
Only areas where the munitions/militants/C&C is.

So you are talking 1-2 blocks at a time.

But some are able to realize the whole city at a time is BS propaganda some by the OP (as usual)

 

[Zorkorist]

They're probably targeting sites that are launching missles at them.

-John