israel levels an entire city within an hour

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GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
So Hamas wants everything that they have lost due to their actions.

What is Hamas offering to Israel that is a benefit to encourage Israel to stop the conflict. Absolutely nothing.


Using the Palestinian track record for holding up truces, it has been shown to be good for hours at the most. Hamas would allow attacks and excuses such that is was a splinter group that did it.

If Hamas represents Gaza; then Hamas has to accept responsibility for Gaza.

Gaza is under Israeli occupation. Gaza is Israeli responsibility, not Hamas. Hamas cannot represent Gaza since Hamas is not allowed to rule, even if they won a democratic election fair and square.

The Palestinians have the moral right to resist the occupation and ongoing theft of their lands.

Ever since Israel came into being, and before that, it has stolen more land through warfare and terrorims. This is the historical record.

Charles de Gaulle, already in 1967, nailed the behaviour of Israel when he said:

Israel now, on the territories it has captured, it is organizing an occupation that cannot be carried out without oppression, repression, expulsions and resistance, which Israel, in its turn, calls terrorism.

See how it works? Since then Israel has expanded further using the same techniques. Israel is always the victim of terrorism whenever there is resistance to Israel's policies of expansion, war, land theft, occupation and repression.

It's time for the US to stop giving Israel economic, political, military and diplomatic aid. Only then will there be a chance for lasting peace. As long as Israel has the power to it will keep stealing land and murdering the Palestinian people.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
It happens that people lose their land.

In times of war, you may lose a lot of land.

There's nothing that says you are "entitled" to land.
Hmm, your inconsequential opinion.

Now what decisively counters such violent and criminal ignorance is the presence of violated law that has been ratified by the state of Israel.

My belief is that to continue the facts on the ground for Israeli annexation of territory that is not Israeli, like clock-work, every few years Israel pounces upon any excuse to initiate yet another land war. Hamas cannot be routed by military action. Gaza has been invaded in the past, to again have Hamas rebuild, yet despite its latest strengthened position, the past year proved to be among the quietest periods of rocket launches into Israel.

Hamas even joined into the recent, but precarious, unity government with Fatah. That was Israel's provocation to find cause for violent action and disruption. It wasn't the deaths of 3 Israeli's in the West Bank that prompted this war -- it was rejuvenated diplomacy between Hamas and Fatah. Since the 2 decade old Israeli assistance in its founding to oppose Fatah, Hamas is Israel's great deception and Machiavellian ploy. Israel's greatest fear is a relative moral standing against its opposition, and a such a diplomatic effort for Palestinian governance leaves Israel as the lone and prime perpetrator of high international crimes. Palestinian diplomacy and unstoppable moves towards even greater international recognition that go beyond the Palestinian Authority already having been recognised as a state government of the West Bank (9 states against the world do not nullify such reality), and then onto involvement into the International Criminal Court (ICC). For strategic goals of expansion, Israel needs a violent and ever present nemesis to redirect focus from Israeli crimes to the east.

Though not party to the ICC, such an international judicial body can directly act if a member state, such as he Palestinian Authority will be -- as I predict it to be within 2 years -- and appeals against any extra-territorial aggressor perpetrating crimes in its territory. Israel fears becoming a pariah, one on par and as widely vocally vilified as its former associate, the former Apartheid regime of South Africa. As Israeli expansion and high crimes continue, this will occur. Time is running out, and Israel will continue its illegal land grabs and distractionary wars.

As an insurgent entity such, Hamas cannot be militarily defeated, as known by Israel and well demonstrated by Hamas continually returning in strength after Israeli invasions of Gaza. There is the other Israeli rational for this war -- keep Hamas' cause alive to further Israeli territorial gain in the West Bank.

That all said, Zorkorist, to absolutely counter your view of modern justification of expansion by military might, here's what I've written in the past concerning Israeli violation of law when annexing territory beyond it's state jurisdiction:

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rather than any plausible settlement with its occupied native populations, the state of Israel has a strategic desire to maintain the status quo with a divided and weakened Palestinian presence all to acquiesce its continued criminal expansion and ethnic cleansing.

Currently, under occupation, Palestinians face extreme economically competitive disadvantages. It is intentionally not a level playing field as a weak and divided Palestine more easily enables Israel to imply a guise of extreme and even illegal security measures to further illegally annex territory for colonisation.

These are high international crimes, and reasonably, quite antagonising to the native populations.

Israel, for that dreadful policy of lebensraum, is in control of the viability of Palestinians, but chooses to maintain oppression all for state strategic purposes. Potential Palestinian success and sovereignty is the number one obstacle to the implementation of a greater and more expansive state of Israel.


The Palestinian Authority (now a recognised state government, though just of the West Bank), rather than the militant wing or even political wings of Hamas, is conducting a unilaterally peaceful, diplomatic, and a just way forward with the avocation of civil disobedience in their occupied land against the aggressors, in combination with a route to achieve a semblance of state sovereignty and a gained UN seat to lobby for criminal charges and further condemnation against Israel expansionist actions. These Israeli action along with the brutal ghettoization of Gaza, provide a Machiavellian mechanism of both dividing any possibility of a Palestinian unity government, plus a ready bogeyman to distract and demonise for Israel’s propaganda PR blitzes of its good against evil.

Yes, Israel did de-colonise from the Gaza strip, in favour of supplemented colonisation with expanded annexation in through the West Bank. A regular PR line of Israel is to keep repeating that withdrawal of Gaza without heed to its growing high crimes to the east. Gaza has long been densely populated, unlike the diverted focus to far more sparse West Bank regions for expropriation, annexation, and colonisation. With Israeli ghettoization and now fairly regularly destructive military invasions, to Israel’s long term strategic advantage for state territorial expansion to the east, Gaza has been willfully fostered into a powderkeg and demagogue.

Israeli action outside of its state borders fail a moral stiff test. It is not hyperbole to correctly and accurately align historical pogroms and contemporary legal language against Israeli extra-jurisdictional crimes. A charged language is apt as the accurate parallels with history are damning indictments of Israeli state action:

· As Germany of the past, Israel has a state policy of lebensraum. Ironically, rather than Germanise lands beyond its border, Israel is applying its military to Zionise extra-territorial lands and displace its undesirable residents. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country." Distasteful echoes of the past ring true today.
Suddenly we are short of space here in Israel, which has become full to capacity and needs lebensraum. Every cultured person knows that this is a despicable German concept, banned from use because of the associations it brings up. Still, people are starting to use it, if not outright then with a clear implication: We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country.

When we embarked on the Six-Day War did we want to remove a threat or did we want to gain control in order to spread out? That's what happens after 44 years of mire and moral corruption,
which distort things and make us forget the original objective and replace it with an entirely different one. We were fortunate when we occupied the West Bank because had we not done so, where would we have come to live? And who knows how high housing prices would have risen? The divine promise is now being revealed in all its ability to prophesy about real estate.

The founding fathers, as opposed to the Diadochi who fought for control after Alexander the Great's death, represented a different approach, for the most part. Between "A little goes a long way," and "Don't bite off more than you can chew," they chose to bite; they even agreed to the 1947 UN partition plan for lack of choice. They believed that all the objectives of rational Ben Gurion-style Zionism could be fulfilled even in "Lesser Israel," which is more complete and more at peace with itself. And it has no need for lebensraum, may God preserve us.
· Israel has long implemented policies akin to apartheid with militarily enforced separate areas and separate laws in the West Bank. Palestinians are subverted in favour of Israeli while only those Israeli colonists, rather than their subjugated Palestinian neighbours, are granted a political say upon state policy by Israel.

Balanced, condemnation upon Israel is not warranted out of its simple existence nor the presence of Jews, but of that state's extra-territorial policies and actions. So, also please avoid a the expected trivial misrepresentation for no peace being achievable simply due to hate for Jews or that myself, a Jew, gets-off "Jew-baiting" by presenting comparisons to a convicted Germany...

Those in rabid and absolute defence of Israel will again likely cry with hyperbole over such applicable language, then I call for a new tact. Try avoiding the familiar arguments into ad nauseum and ‘Jew-hating’ or ‘anti-Semitic’ tarring against internet messengers, and to constructively put an end to the likes of applicably vile language against Israel. You can accomplish this via turning to a rationale course of action by pressuring Israel to cease its condemnable actions.

That promoting and applauding in favour of Zionist expansionist (not that a title of Zionism should equate to evil, rather unilateral territorial expansion is a crime) is antagonistic and ought to be reasonable concluded as such to every honest witness. Do such high crimes warrant crimes of humanity attacks upon Israeli civilians, as per more personal terrorism and indiscriminate rocket attacks? No. Yet those actions represent a minority of belligerents and most certainly do not give a pass to the continued and disproportionately greater instigating crimes by Israel.

In the context of Israeli occupation, subjugation, and colonising of the West Bank of Palestine, categorising what is to be unjust is fairly easy:

Charter of the United Nations: Article I:
2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
United Nations Declaration of Human Rights
· without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
· Article 9
o No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
· Article 13
o (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
o (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
· Article 15
o (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
o (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
· Article 17
o (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Though the above are mostly ideals, some points have been ratified into international law, particularly those ratified and signed by the state of Israel.

An above point there of all having a right to nationality, was directly born out of the aftermath of WWII with mass-refugees and the struggle of sovereign state borders through to that of the founding of the state of Israel as home for some stateless Jews. A lesson of that conflict was an enabler to high crimes against humanity was to deny a people their identity or nationality. When considering Palestinians, an occurrence that is now commonly practiced in simple forums as this, to even high international forum such as the UN General Assembly. People have a sovereign right to identity, and to deny such an identity is an enabler to deny and confiscate property, through to the demeaning treatment and expulsion of such an identified group, all for the strategic territorial goals of supremacist ethnic cleansing.

The self-determination of Palestinians is directly offensive to Israeli state policy, as it further complicates and deters the expansionist colonisation of the state of Israeli into jurisdiction beyond its borders, tough occupied by the IDF.

Definition of Aggression, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3314 (XXIX).
Article 5:
3. No territorial acquisition or special advantage resulting from aggression is or shall be recognized as lawful.
Article 7
Nothing in this Definition, and in particular article 3, could in any way prejudice the right to self-determination, freedom and independence, as derived from the Charter, of peoples forcibly deprived of that right and referred to in the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, particularly peoples under colonial and racist regimes or other forms of alien domination: nor the right of these peoples to struggle to that end and to seek and receive support, in accordance with the principles of the Charter and in conformity with the above-mentioned Declaration.
Reaffirming such post-WWII international law, here are some of the historically sanctioned and recorded legal international views, that also include that of your USA:
United Nations Resolution 242 (November 1967) - The situation in the Middle East:
..
Emphasizingthe inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,
1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
United Nations Resolution 3236 (November 1974) - Question of Palestine:
Recognizing that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,
Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,
Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,
Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,
1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:
1. (a) The right to self-determination without external interference;
2. (b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;
Internationally, on a state-per-state basis, Israel is absolutely isolated upon a view of legal annexation and colonisation of extra-jurisdictional territory. Driving partisanship, Prime Minister Harper of Canada has been both praised and critiqued for his unwavering support for Israel, yet even the government that he leads is unequivocal upon the illegality of Israeli aggression:
Foreign Affairs

Status of Jerusalem

Canada considers the status of Jerusalem can be resolved only as part of a general settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli dispute.
Canada does not recognize Israel's unilateral annexation of East Jerusalem.

Occupied Territories and Settlements
Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465,
Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

Canada believes that both Israel and the Palestinian Authority must fully respect international human rights and humanitarian law which is key to ensuring the protection of civilians, and can contribute to the creation of a climate conducive to achieving a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement.

The Barrier
Canada recognizes Israel's right to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks, including through the restriction of access to its territory, and by building a barrier on its own territory for security purposes. However, Canada opposes Israel's construction of the barrier inside the West Bank and East Jerusalem which are occupied territories.
This construction is contrary to international law under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Canada not only opposes Israel's construction of a barrier extending into the occupied territories, but also expropriations and the demolition of houses and economic infrastructure carried out for this purpose.
Israeli occupation, subjugation, and colonisation of Palestinian land is immoral, criminal, and as specified -- unjust. As far as states go, Israel is alone upon challenging this. If you choose to side with Israel in such opposition, then your perception of justice is quite incorrect.

With full support of legal citations through the legal and public diplomatic positions of the state of Israel’s closest allies, I have firmly displayed the illegality of Israeli actions. Further, with firm conviction and rational, I view the isolation and regular military invasions of Gaza (even Lebanon) serve the Israeli policy position of fostering/provoking extremism and surreptitiously prolonging any chance of achievable peace settlements, all to divide a nation of Palestine, deny the unity of such an already recognised state, and thereby permit the backhanded continuance of high crimes of aggression in the form of annexation and expropriation of territory beyond the state borders of Israel, all for the greater supremacist expansion and growth of a greater Israel.
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,809
13
0
dang Whiskey16, thanks for doing the research. i just pull headlines and sit back and enjoy the show. i didnt read any of it, but thanks anyway. :thumbsup:
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
Thanks, might as well attempt towards higher standards and referenced honesty in discussion.......Or in here, it'll again prove to be a lost cause.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Thanks, might as well attempt towards higher standards and referenced honesty in discussion.......Or in here, it'll again prove to be a lost cause.

No no, keep going! I'm sure you're just a handful of tech forum posts away from defeating the evil Jews. I mean, just tally up your posts and look at how many palestinian kids you've saved so far! What, none? Oh, then I guess you're just wasting your time.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,695
2,294
146
Yeah this is a mystery.
Palestinians don't have a demographic problem. Their numbers have swelled quite dramatically over the last half century. This is to be expected when not only an existential threat is perceived, but one also trains one's children to be expendable for the greater "good."
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Hmm, your inconsequential opinion.

Now what decisively counters such violent and criminal ignorance is the presence of violated law that has been ratified by the state of Israel.

My belief is that to continue the facts on the ground for Israeli annexation of territory that is not Israeli, like clock-work, every few years Israel pounces upon any excuse to initiate yet another land war. Hamas cannot be routed by military action. Gaza has been invaded in the past, to again have Hamas rebuild, yet despite its latest strengthened position, the past year proved to be among the quietest periods of rocket launches into Israel.

Hamas even joined into the recent, but precarious, unity government with Fatah. That was Israel's provocation to find cause for violent action and disruption. It wasn't the deaths of 3 Israeli's in the West Bank that prompted this war -- it was rejuvenated diplomacy between Hamas and Fatah. Since the 2 decade old Israeli assistance in its founding to oppose Fatah, Hamas is Israel's great deception and Machiavellian ploy. Israel's greatest fear is a relative moral standing against its opposition, and a such a diplomatic effort for Palestinian governance leaves Israel as the lone and prime perpetrator of high international crimes. Palestinian diplomacy and unstoppable moves towards even greater international recognition that go beyond the Palestinian Authority already having been recognised as a state government of the West Bank (9 states against the world do not nullify such reality), and then onto involvement into the International Criminal Court (ICC). For strategic goals of expansion, Israel needs a violent and ever present nemesis to redirect focus from Israeli crimes to the east.

Though not party to the ICC, such an international judicial body can directly act if a member state, such as he Palestinian Authority will be -- as I predict it to be within 2 years -- and appeals against any extra-territorial aggressor perpetrating crimes in its territory. Israel fears becoming a pariah, one on par and as widely vocally vilified as its former associate, the former Apartheid regime of South Africa. As Israeli expansion and high crimes continue, this will occur. Time is running out, and Israel will continue its illegal land grabs and distractionary wars.

As an insurgent entity such, Hamas cannot be militarily defeated, as known by Israel and well demonstrated by Hamas continually returning in strength after Israeli invasions of Gaza. There is the other Israeli rational for this war -- keep Hamas' cause alive to further Israeli territorial gain in the West Bank.

That all said, Zorkorist, to absolutely counter your view of modern justification of expansion by military might, here's what I've written in the past concerning Israeli violation of law when annexing territory beyond it's state jurisdiction:

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rather than any plausible settlement with its occupied native populations, the state of Israel has a strategic desire to maintain the status quo with a divided and weakened Palestinian presence all to acquiesce its continued criminal expansion and ethnic cleansing.

Currently, under occupation, Palestinians face extreme economically competitive disadvantages. It is intentionally not a level playing field as a weak and divided Palestine more easily enables Israel to imply a guise of extreme and even illegal security measures to further illegally annex territory for colonisation.

These are high international crimes, and reasonably, quite antagonising to the native populations.

Israel, for that dreadful policy of lebensraum, is in control of the viability of Palestinians, but chooses to maintain oppression all for state strategic purposes. Potential Palestinian success and sovereignty is the number one obstacle to the implementation of a greater and more expansive state of Israel.

The Palestinian Authority (now a recognised state government, though just of the West Bank), rather than the militant wing or even political wings of Hamas, is conducting a unilaterally peaceful, diplomatic, and a just way forward with the avocation of civil disobedience in their occupied land against the aggressors, in combination with a route to achieve a semblance of state sovereignty and a gained UN seat to lobby for criminal charges and further condemnation against Israel expansionist actions. These Israeli action along with the brutal ghettoization of Gaza, provide a Machiavellian mechanism of both dividing any possibility of a Palestinian unity government, plus a ready bogeyman to distract and demonise for Israel’s propaganda PR blitzes of its good against evil.

Yes, Israel did de-colonise from the Gaza strip, in favour of supplemented colonisation with expanded annexation in through the West Bank. A regular PR line of Israel is to keep repeating that withdrawal of Gaza without heed to its growing high crimes to the east. Gaza has long been densely populated, unlike the diverted focus to far more sparse West Bank regions for expropriation, annexation, and colonisation. With Israeli ghettoization and now fairly regularly destructive military invasions, to Israel’s long term strategic advantage for state territorial expansion to the east, Gaza has been willfully fostered into a powderkeg and demagogue.

Israeli action outside of its state borders fail a moral stiff test. It is not hyperbole to correctly and accurately align historical pogroms and contemporary legal language against Israeli extra-jurisdictional crimes. A charged language is apt as the accurate parallels with history are damning indictments of Israeli state action:

· As Germany of the past, Israel has a state policy of lebensraum. Ironically, rather than Germanise lands beyond its border, Israel is applying its military to Zionise extra-territorial lands and displace its undesirable residents. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country." Distasteful echoes of the past ring true today.

Quote:
Suddenly we are short of space here in Israel, which has become full to capacity and needs lebensraum. Every cultured person knows that this is a despicable German concept, banned from use because of the associations it brings up. Still, people are starting to use it, if not outright then with a clear implication: We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country.

When we embarked on the Six-Day War did we want to remove a threat or did we want to gain control in order to spread out? That's what happens after 44 years of mire and moral corruption,

Quote:
which distort things and make us forget the original objective and replace it with an entirely different one. We were fortunate when we occupied the West Bank because had we not done so, where would we have come to live? And who knows how high housing prices would have risen? The divine promise is now being revealed in all its ability to prophesy about real estate.

The founding fathers, as opposed to the Diadochi who fought for control after Alexander the Great's death, represented a different approach, for the most part. Between "A little goes a long way," and "Don't bite off more than you can chew," they chose to bite; they even agreed to the 1947 UN partition plan for lack of choice. They believed that all the objectives of rational Ben Gurion-style Zionism could be fulfilled even in "Lesser Israel," which is more complete and more at peace with itself. And it has no need for lebensraum, may God preserve us.

· Israel has long implemented policies akin to apartheid with militarily enforced separate areas and separate laws in the West Bank. Palestinians are subverted in favour of Israeli while only those Israeli colonists, rather than their subjugated Palestinian neighbours, are granted a political say upon state policy by Israel.

Balanced, condemnation upon Israel is not warranted out of its simple existence nor the presence of Jews, but of that state's extra-territorial policies and actions. So, also please avoid a the expected trivial misrepresentation for no peace being achievable simply due to hate for Jews or that myself, a Jew, gets-off "Jew-baiting" by presenting comparisons to a convicted Germany...

Those in rabid and absolute defence of Israel will again likely cry with hyperbole over such applicable language, then I call for a new tact. Try avoiding the familiar arguments into ad nauseum and ‘Jew-hating’ or ‘anti-Semitic’ tarring against internet messengers, and to constructively put an end to the likes of applicably vile language against Israel. You can accomplish this via turning to a rationale course of action by pressuring Israel to cease its condemnable actions.

That promoting and applauding in favour of Zionist expansionist (not that a title of Zionism should equate to evil, rather unilateral territorial expansion is a crime) is antagonistic and ought to be reasonable concluded as such to every honest witness. Do such high crimes warrant crimes of humanity attacks upon Israeli civilians, as per more personal terrorism and indiscriminate rocket attacks? No. Yet those actions represent a minority of belligerents and most certainly do not give a pass to the continued and disproportionately greater instigating crimes by Israel.

In the context of Israeli occupation, subjugation, and colonising of the West Bank of Palestine, categorising what is to be unjust is fairly easy:


Quote:
Charter of the United Nations: Article I:
2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

Quote:
United Nations Declaration of Human Rights
· without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
· Article 9
o No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
· Article 13
o (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
o (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
· Article 15
o (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
o (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
· Article 17
o (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Though the above are mostly ideals, some points have been ratified into international law, particularly those ratified and signed by the state of Israel.

An above point there of all having a right to nationality, was directly born out of the aftermath of WWII with mass-refugees and the struggle of sovereign state borders through to that of the founding of the state of Israel as home for some stateless Jews. A lesson of that conflict was an enabler to high crimes against humanity was to deny a people their identity or nationality. When considering Palestinians, an occurrence that is now commonly practiced in simple forums as this, to even high international forum such as the UN General Assembly. People have a sovereign right to identity, and to deny such an identity is an enabler to deny and confiscate property, through to the demeaning treatment and expulsion of such an identified group, all for the strategic territorial goals of supremacist ethnic cleansing.

The self-determination of Palestinians is directly offensive to Israeli state policy, as it further complicates and deters the expansionist colonisation of the state of Israeli into jurisdiction beyond its borders, tough occupied by the IDF.


Quote:
Definition of Aggression, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3314 (XXIX).
Article 5:
3. No territorial acquisition or special advantage resulting from aggression is or shall be recognized as lawful.
Article 7
Nothing in this Definition, and in particular article 3, could in any way prejudice the right to self-determination, freedom and independence, as derived from the Charter, of peoples forcibly deprived of that right and referred to in the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, particularly peoples under colonial and racist regimes or other forms of alien domination: nor the right of these peoples to struggle to that end and to seek and receive support, in accordance with the principles of the Charter and in conformity with the above-mentioned Declaration.

Reaffirming such post-WWII international law, here are some of the historically sanctioned and recorded legal international views, that also include that of your USA:

Quote:
United Nations Resolution 242 (November 1967) - The situation in the Middle East:
..
Emphasizingthe inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,
1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Quote:
United Nations Resolution 3236 (November 1974) - Question of Palestine:
Recognizing that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,
Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,
Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,
Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,
1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:
1. (a) The right to self-determination without external interference;
2. (b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

Internationally, on a state-per-state basis, Israel is absolutely isolated upon a view of legal annexation and colonisation of extra-jurisdictional territory. Driving partisanship, Prime Minister Harper of Canada has been both praised and critiqued for his unwavering support for Israel, yet even the government that he leads is unequivocal upon the illegality of Israeli aggression:

Quote:
Foreign Affairs

Status of Jerusalem

Canada considers the status of Jerusalem can be resolved only as part of a general settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli dispute. Canada does not recognize Israel's unilateral annexation of East Jerusalem.

Occupied Territories and Settlements
Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

Canada believes that both Israel and the Palestinian Authority must fully respect international human rights and humanitarian law which is key to ensuring the protection of civilians, and can contribute to the creation of a climate conducive to achieving a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement.

The Barrier
Canada recognizes Israel's right to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks, including through the restriction of access to its territory, and by building a barrier on its own territory for security purposes. However, Canada opposes Israel's construction of the barrier inside the West Bank and East Jerusalem which are occupied territories. This construction is contrary to international law under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Canada not only opposes Israel's construction of a barrier extending into the occupied territories, but also expropriations and the demolition of houses and economic infrastructure carried out for this purpose.

Israeli occupation, subjugation, and colonisation of Palestinian land is immoral, criminal, and as specified -- unjust. As far as states go, Israel is alone upon challenging this. If you choose to side with Israel in such opposition, then your perception of justice is quite incorrect.

With full support of legal citations through the legal and public diplomatic positions of the state of Israel’s closest allies, I have firmly displayed the illegality of Israeli actions. Further, with firm conviction and rational, I view the isolation and regular military invasions of Gaza (even Lebanon) serve the Israeli policy position of fostering/provoking extremism and surreptitiously prolonging any chance of achievable peace settlements, all to divide a nation of Palestine, deny the unity of such an already recognised state, and thereby permit the backhanded continuance of high crimes of aggression in the form of annexation and expropriation of territory beyond the state borders of Israel, all for the greater supremacist expansion and growth of a greater Israel.
First of all you are way late to the party Whiskey.....back in 2006 and 2007.....my friend named Lemon law who was a Palestinian supporter and I went through this whole thing that you are trying to show.


The bottom line is....UN resolutions mean nothing and are not enforceable!
The World Court has no teeth and is a total laughing stock as far as enforcement goes.....did I mention the world Court is a joke?

What you fail to understand is that once the Palestinians vote Hamas out many Israeli`S AND Jews feel that will open the door to Peace!

As far a world opinion goes...Habarek said it best --
short version first -- In the end there's only so much apologizing you can do for simply existing. One day you gotta tell "World Opinion" to shove it and do what you gotta do for your citizens.


For the world, this is a game, something that happens thousands of kilometers away in some distant land.
For us, it is a daily routine of rocket and mortar attacks that never stopped, and tunnels dug under our towns to kidnap and murder our people.
The sheltered world can, from the comfort of its modern, mostly worry-free life, play around with putting tags on rockets - this came from that organization, the other one came from that one - for our citizens it simply does not matter.

And lets face it, among the hundreds of thousands of Christian\Muslim Arabs dying while the Middle East around us and nearby northern Africa erupts in flames and decays into a fundie religious dream, no one really gives a damn unless it has something to do with Israel.

There's good and there's bad here and we're not saints, but we're here, most of us wish to live in peace and perhaps one day people will simply stop trying to kill us all the time.
When that happens, we most likely WILL make sacrifices for peace. But it needs to happen first.

Yeah, Netanyahu most likely had to sell the idea to the world. Welcome to politics. You will be hard pressed to find anyone here(in Israel) who regrets the likely outcome of this operation - the destruction of munitions meant to be used on us and tunnels dug for murder, not smuggling basic supplies.

In the end there's only so much apologizing you can do for simply existing. One day you gotta tell "World Opinion" to shove it and do what you gotta do for your citizens.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Gaza is under Israeli occupation. Gaza is Israeli responsibility, not Hamas. Hamas cannot represent Gaza since Hamas is not allowed to rule, even if they won a democratic election fair and square.
You really have no clue do you??
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.....it`s not occupying Gaza.
Then the Palestinians elected Hamas in 2007!

Truth be told Israel doesn`t want to be in Gaza...Israel wants to take out tunnels and missle launchers and leave Gaza...

If Hamas truly cared about the Palestinians people they would have built underground shelters for the people! Instead they built tunnels to smuggle and hide missile launchers...
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Yeah,

It's all really about religion. And people ready and willing to kill others, in the name of religion.

-John
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
You say that like there's no provocation at all from the Israeli side.

Both sides have been launching ordinances at each other with very little to no regards to civilians.

You know dude get over it.....The way Hamas fights...which is to build tunnels amongst the Palestinians and booby trap them and use civilian homes to store projectiles....

Reminds me of this cartoon --

HamasHeadquarters_zps80b6e7b2.jpg
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Israel leveled a city within an hour with conventional weapons? Then I don't know what hope the Palestinians have. Sounds like they'd better give up or realize they're all going to die.
Israel leveled the city with conventional weapons because Hamas takes all the cement and other building supplies to dig tunnels and attack Israel. Thus all the homes are made of sub standard building supplies...
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
The first thing you need to do is get the crazy fundamentalists out of power in Israel like Netanyahu. Then you can focus on attempting to make peace with Hamas in exchange for lifting the blockade. If that does not work then you are going to have to try to dislodge Hamas in favor of Fatah or some other moderate political organization.
Never happen...if not Netanyahu somebody else......your just plain goofy if you believe your diatribe...
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
You know dude get over it.....The way Hamas fights...which is to build tunnels amongst the Palestinians and booby trap them and use civilian homes to store projectiles.... Reminds me of this cartoon --

And the Israeli government is willing to slaughter civilians without and thought or sympathy just because of that or more probably along with that. And the Israelis are ruining their reputation around the world because of that. Well who then is to blame for jumping at the bait Hamas is setting? Just because one side is using one situation to their advantage does not mean the other side is not also nor does it forgive any of their actions or oppression.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
And the Israeli government is willing to slaughter civilians without and thought or sympathy just because of that or more probably along with that. And the Israelis are ruining their reputation around the world because of that. Well who then is to blame for jumping at the bait Hamas is setting? Just because one side is using one situation to their advantage does not mean the other side is not also nor does it forgive any of their actions or oppression
okay one more time -- This was posted by
Habarek - Yeah, Netanyahu most likely had to sell the idea to the world. Welcome to politics. You will be hard pressed to find anyone here(in Israel) who regrets the likely outcome of this operation - the destruction of munitions meant to be used on us and tunnels dug for murder, not smuggling basic supplies.

In the end there's only so much apologizing you can do for simply existing. One day you gotta tell "World Opinion" to shove it and do what you gotta do for your citizens.
end of the story!!
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
You really have no clue do you??
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.....it`s not occupying Gaza.
Then the Palestinians elected Hamas in 2007!

Truth be told Israel doesn`t want to be in Gaza...Israel wants to take out tunnels and missle launchers and leave Gaza...

If Hamas truly cared about the Palestinians people they would have built underground shelters for the people! Instead they built tunnels to smuggle and hide missile launchers...

The Palestinians ARE an occupied people. Gaza itself IS a shelter. Many Palestinians in Gaza are already refugees and victims of previous Israeli "expansion". Israel has Gaza completely surrounded (this includes Israeli support of Egyptian military dictatorships destroying Egyptian democracy in the process). The Palestinians in Gaza cannot travel freely, buy and sell goods, import anything or fix anything because they are under complete lockdown, under siege. Israel controls the access to food and water. Israel is even currently busy stealing the oil and gas off the shore to Gaza that belongs to the Palestinians. Israel has turned Gaza into the largest prison in the world.

In fact Israel just shrank the Gaza Ghetto by 40% as part of this assault on Gaza putting even more pressure on the remaining parts of Gaza.

When the Palestinians elected Hamas in 2007 Israel decided to put Gaza on a 'diet' to quote an Israeli official. What we are seeing now is only the continuation of the Israeli policies to crush the Palestinian people once and for all, bit by bit piece by piece slowly but surely.

Of course the Palestinian people have the right to resist brutal policies aimed at displacing them, if not outright destroying them, and stealing their land and everything they have.

Before the Hamas rockets against Israel used to excuse this latest attack on Gaza Israel bombed Gaza about 100 times, had one military incursion and assasinated a few Hamas members THEN after that Hamas retaliated with some rockets. Then there was the murder of three kids that Israeli police KNEW had nothing to do with Hamas but which Netanyahu used to trump up anti-Palestinian feelings and as a pretext to for this latest, long planned, attack on Gaza. Netanyahu simply played the age old 'victim card' again.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
The Palestinians ARE an occupied people. Gaza itself IS a shelter. Many Palestinians in Gaza are already refugees and victims of previous Israeli "expansion". Israel has Gaza completely surrounded (this includes Israeli support of Egyptian military dictatorships destroying Egyptian democracy in the process). The Palestinians in Gaza cannot travel freely, buy and sell goods, import anything or fix anything because they are under complete lockdown, under siege. Israel controls the access to food and water. Israel is even currently busy stealing the oil and gas off the shore to Gaza that belongs to the Palestinians. Israel has turned Gaza into the largest prison in the world.

In fact Israel just shrank the Gaza Ghetto by 40% as part of this assault on Gaza putting even more pressure on the remaining parts of Gaza.

When the Palestinians elected Hamas in 2007 Israel decided to put Gaza on a 'diet' to quote an Israeli official. What we are seeing now is only the continuation of the Israeli policies to crush the Palestinian people once and for all, bit by bit piece by piece slowly but surely.

Of course the Palestinian people have the right to resist brutal policies aimed at displacing them, if not outright destroying them, and stealing their land and everything they have.

Before the Hamas rockets against Israel used to excuse this latest attack on Gaza Israel bombed Gaza about 100 times, had one military incursion and assasinated a few Hamas members THEN after that Hamas retaliated with some rockets. Then there was the murder of three kids that Israeli police KNEW had nothing to do with Hamas but which Netanyahu used to trump up anti-Palestinian feelings and as a pretext to for this latest, long planned, attack on Gaza. Netanyahu simply played the age old 'victim card' again.
More excuses?? Now you are playing word games........
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.....it`s not occupying Gaza.
Then the Palestinians elected Hamas in 2007!

Truth be told Israel doesn`t want to be in Gaza...Israel wants to take out tunnels and missle launchers and leave Gaza...

If Hamas truly cared about the Palestinians people they would have built underground shelters for the people! Instead they built tunnels to smuggle and hide missile launchers...

I am sorry that you don`t see the bigger picture which is...
Whose fault is it?
If it`s your father or uncle or brother who is firing those rockets into Israel..whose fault is it really?


Do you really expect the Israeli`s not to retaliate?

To understand this better we need to look at thee Hamas Charter...which even though the rook out article 10......their leaders as of 2012 had called for the destruction of Israel....
Yet even now the charter calls for the murder of Jews in general...

Hamas doesn`t care if they kill Israeli citizens...but they don`t care if Palestinian civilians die...for Hamas until recently having Palestinians die has been a huge public relations coup for Hamas!! To Hamas that is a win, win!!

It has been said that Israel is using a missile defense system to protect its citizens and Hamas is using it`s citizens to protect it`s missiles!

If Hamas had the opportunity or the weapons they would kill the maximum number Israeli`s they could....
Yet Israel has the opportunity to kill way more people and they do not.....

The Palestinian people have made some very bad choices of their own leaders and are victimized by their leaders...

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.....it`s not occupying Gaza.
Then the Palestinians elected Hamas in 2007!

Truth be told Israel doesn`t want to be in Gaza...Israel wants to take out tunnels and missle launchers and leave Gaza...

If Hamas truly cared about the Palestinians people they would have built underground shelters for the people! Instead they built tunnels to smuggle and hide missile launchers...

I know it is very hard for you to deal with the truth.....